Harman Positive Paper......Using Filters and loading into film holders

Asha

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#1
I had some 4x5 Harman Positive Paper kindly donated a while ago that I have not yet had a play with.

When exposing it, can one obtain the same effect from filters that apply to b&w negative film (ie, orange filter to darken the blue sky ), or do filters have an adverse effect on how the image is registered on the paper?
 
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#2
Positive Paper is closer to Ortho Film than normal Panchromatic Film. See the two sensitivity charts from Ilford data sheets (have pencilled in colours)

ortho.jpg hppsens.jpg

So red filter will really darken blue skies on HPP and Ortho film , Orange and Yellow slightly less on HPP but would have almost no effect on Ortho film. The filter factors that you usually rely on for panchromatic film would not be the same though. No numbers on the HPP data sheet but some examples on sheet for Ortho Plus.

<Edit> Duh! That should be Y and O filters have same strong effect on Ortho Film </Edit>
 
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Asha

Asha

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#3
Positive Paper is closer to Ortho Film than normal Panchromatic Film. See the two sensitivity charts from Ilford data sheets (have pencilled in colours)

View attachment 267086 View attachment 267087

So red filter will really darken blue skies on HPP and Ortho film , Orange and Yellow slightly less on HPP but would have almost no effect on Ortho film. The filter factors that you usually rely on for panchromatic film would not be the same though. No numbers on the HPP data sheet but some examples on sheet for Ortho Plus.
Thanks for the info!;)

This is an area that I have the ability to understand in detail but it does take a little while to square it all up in my head. lol

The graphs make sense ( i think) as iirc Ortho film can be developed by inspection under a red safelight.
As part of my future darkroom playtimes and to give me more control, I intend to try tray developing of panchro film ....I think I need a dark green safelight filter to do that though?
 
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#4
I think even a dark green filter may be too much for panchromatic film. RA4 paper has a blind spot there. Recall in my youth my father desensitising pan film with a dye to dev by very dim safe light, safranine rings a bell, perhaps that is something to search for.

( phenosafranin (safranin B) is the stuff)
 
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Asha

Asha

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#5
Ive just loaded two film holders with this positive paper, however I did encounter some difficulties that I feel are worth sharing.

My newest holders are TOYO which I planned on using but the guide rails which securely hold film in place refused to accept the additional thickness of the paper without force.
Fortunately I still possess a couple of old fidelity holders which proved to have more clearance.
Nonetheless the problems didn’t stop there.
The dark slides refused to close completely.
I think that the paper dimensions are a fraction larger than 4x5 sheet film as I had to push the paper well up tight into the holder to allow the hinged closure to sit correctly to accept the darkslide.

A little bit of a faff tbh but I am now aware of what to expect as are any of you who choose to use HPP.
At least it is possible to actually see what one is doing as loading is possible under red safelight.
 
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#6
I tried a couple of sheets once, but made a mess of them. I'll be interested to see your results Asha, as I think the paper is a good idea.
 
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#7
I'd been considering some used film holders for my Harman PP in a rudimentary pinhole but this from the Firstcall Photographic catalogue put me off:
Qty:

Description
The Toyo 5 x 4 film holder is for 5 x 4 pinhole cameras, such as the Harman Titan 5 x 4

Please note:

This film holder holder is unable to accept the HARMAN Direct Positive paper, there is insufficient gap to accept the fibre base paper.

There are no issues with Multigrade paper or any of our films which are slightly thinner.
 
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#8
I used the paper with the Ilford Obscura pinhole camera, but it is fairly unique as the paper or film just sits in one part of the camera and is held in place by the second part of the camera. I never tried it with filmholders of any make.
 
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Asha

Asha

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#9
IMG_0366.JPG

This is my second attempt with this positive paper.

The first exposed at iso 3 was totally unusable being underexposed and severely lacking contrast.
This example exposed at iso 1 still lacks contrast and appears to me that perhaps the paper is fogged. Nonetheless it is marginally better than my original effort and I quite like the soft dreamy look especially with the sun rays in the background.
I’m going to persevere with the sheets that I have remaining and try obtain a decent result not least of all as I quite fancy using the 10x8 format.
I’ll keep this thread updated with future progress....hopefully showing significant improvement.
 
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Asha

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#10
Something that has just struck me and is confusing me!
Hi come the extreme edges of the paper are jet black, ie high in contrast, yet the actual image lacks contrast?
Ignore the large band of white which is due to user error.
 
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Asha

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#12
Hmmm I wonder if I’m pulling out out of developer too soon.
 
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#13
I've only done a couple of pinhole exposures with this paper (1 v underexposed and 1 v overexposed) but the datasheet/instructions gives info on pre- flashing to help with contrast. There is pdf on the Ilford site if you want to look at pre-flashing or if you get stuck I can send you a copy of mine - let me know.
 
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#14
Something that has just struck me and is confusing me!
Hi come the extreme edges of the paper are jet black, ie high in contrast, yet the actual image lacks contrast?
Ignore the large band of white which is due to user error.
Black margin = no light, so looks as if paper is not fogged on margins. Not used direct positive paper, but did used to do film reversal for graphics, overdevelopment in first dev gave lighter images but can't get head round how that works for a single stage dev. Perhaps worth taking a picture of a checkerboard and cutting into strips and giving each a different dev time.
 
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#15
At the risk of stating the obvious here, Roger confirms in his article that "It’s a direct positive paper, so more exposure makes it lighter. If you’re used to neg/pos processing, it can be easy to forget this.", and that's certainly a mistake that I made when I tried it. :asshat:
 
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#16
The datasheet says it’s high contrast, and that would seem to be borne out by the density of the unexposed edges.

What safelight was used? The datasheet says deep red to suit ortho film, so maybe a risk of pre-flashing or fogging if something else was used.
 
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Asha

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#17
What safelight was used?
A red Photax safelight with a 15W bulb like in the image below ( pic taken from internet).
In addition I loaded the paper at a distance of about 15 ft away from the lamp.

Tbh I would have loaded in complete darkness like I do sheet film had it not been for the initial difficulties of tryng to load the TOYO holder

The fact that the black edges on the result in post #9 show that the edges of the paper were probably not fogged like @dmb suggests, says to me that fogging isn't the reason for the lack of contrast.
Had I fogged the paper whilst loading, the whole sheet, including the edges would have been affected.

I'll have another read of Roger Hicks bumph along with Ilfords data sheet before having another attempt. ( If I need a copy of the pdf, I'll drop you a message @auntiemaryscanary , Thanks for the offer!)

Like @Peter B I'm finding it all too easy to think along the lines of exposing negative film instead of positive paper, so that helps none in getting the job right!



safelight.jpg
 
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#18
A red Photax safelight with a 15W bulb like in the image below ( pic taken from internet).
In addition I loaded the paper at a distance of about 15 ft away from the lamp.

Tbh I would have loaded in complete darkness like I do sheet film had it not been for the initial difficulties of tryng to load the TOYO holder

The fact that the black edges on the result in post #9 show that the edges of the paper were probably not fogged like @dmb suggests, says to me that fogging isn't the reason for the lack of contrast.
Had I fogged the paper whilst loading, the whole sheet, including the edges would have been affected.
There's still the possibility of fogging after it was loaded, either before or after exposure. That would leave the strong black at the edges, but potentially still affect the image. I suspect it's maybe down to how far away the safelight was at all stages while the paper was in the holder (and 15 ft seems like a pretty safe distance to me, even if it isn't a deep red type).
 
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Asha

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#19
:woot::woot::woot:Got better results:woot::woot::woot:

OK so they are far from great and as i wasn't well enough to go out today, they are of very mundane subject matter, the exterior one purposely chosen as a high contrast scene , but now I know that I can get a half reasonable image out of the HPP, I'm a happy bunny :banana::LOL:

So what did I do different?
Dare I admit to it?…...a schoolboy error:sorry:

I replenished the developer solution in the processor !!!:rolleyes:
I can't beleive that I didn't pick up on that with the first failure:banghead:

Never mind, now got it sorted so next experiment is to play about with a filters and expose some comparisons of same scenes with and without filter.
As @dmb mentions above, the filter factors may mean that more than one attempt at seeing what works ( if anything!) may be required.

I'm actually quite excited about it cos if I am able to "nail" results that i'm happy with even though they are "mirrored" images, then 10x8 HPP , here I come! :LOL:

IMG_1044.JPG
 
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