Critique Help please

Stuart Philpott

Stuart Philpott

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Stu
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Well basically bung every bit of help ya can at me post wise.

Story is simple enough: stu wants to paint wiv light

rarely..oh so rarely can I put me an ' big ears in the right place at the right time to really delve into that.............the image below is part of that story of questing fr light and in so many ways tis flawed , I've knocked SS off where it wants to be for a start and not noticed OUCH, anyways Please crit this not like I shot in auto ISO and wish I hadn't

How does one really approach a back lit image like this I don't feel I've grasped what folks have tried to teach me, does one underexpose by maybe a couple of stops?

cheers muchly

_S2I2047 d 'n's smj tdn light 'n' hare by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

cheers for the help don''t hit like teach me what you know

thank you

stu
 
Not experienced enough to help but will watch this with interest.
 
Hey Stu , you know I am no expert , but it will depend on what your after and what you can live with . A lot of Mammal photographers like their subjects back lit , it highlights all those guard Hares . ( Pun intended ) . The thing is the more you expose for the shadows the more those highlights are going to burn out , and I am guessing the detail would get lost in those guard hairs . Have you tried lifting the shadows some ? They are a little dark for me , I would of liked to see a bit more detail in the Hares . I think it would of been very hard to be ready for such a situation , and taken great camera skills to adjust settings in time and get it right .
 
First up to all those likes above bless ya they are HUGELY appreciated kinda not what I'm after though,

I have quested a place where I can do this for frankly years now .. the lie of the land where I make hare pics makes it incredibly difficult to shoot under the sun later in the day.so I'm in novice land

proper out of me depth..

But tis a place I want to be, and a quest, a personal one to make images in this light................................

so I sort of hoped to be educated in this thread more than liked and maybe just maybe that would help other's like Brian as well? ;)
 
Lepus said:
Hey Stu , you know I am no expert , but it will depend on what your after and what you can live with . A lot of Mammal photographers like their subjects back lit , it highlights all those guard Hares . ( Pun intended ) . The thing is the more you expose for the shadows the more those highlights are going to burn out , and I am guessing the detail would get lost in those guard hairs . Have you tried lifting the shadows some ? They are a little dark for me , I would of liked to see a bit more detail in the Hares . I think it would of been very hard to be ready for such a situation , and taken great camera skills to adjust settings in time and get it right .
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Hello buddy, Mark hope things are OK I'm a frazzeled traiin wreck another op soon ,trying to grind out enough dosh to keep our heads above water whilst I mend ............... hope fiings are better for you bro.

Anyways:) to piccies.

Mark my lens is flooded with light here , but there is lens flare and all manner or things I don't really know how to deal with going on.

So ............. the darks are largely my doing in post, my choices...................... as the original RAWs are very bright and light ( no real detail in hare so little depth of tone), as I let camera take care of EXP with auto ISO and to me I should have ammended that and gone to full manual as I normally do.........................................but yeah darks are my personal editing choice

I MUST add I'd knocked SS down from 1/2000 to 1/640 without noticiing so for sure that is gonna give mo blur

Mark once the hare/s ,there were a few chances and some, passed that flood of light all my detail is there I have the frames to prove but shooting smack against so much light threw so many curve balls into my world .

I honestly think I can put me here again mate and get chances again light being the wayward factor not hare showing up, years of grafting out the same spot mean I'm getting ever closer to being in the right place nothin' given.but that's how it works

Bud when do we really see backlit here? Most images we'll make are with light over me shoulder or bright cloudy skies which give us sharp frames with ickle depth of shadow which are ideal for detail but backlit with preddy strong light and a wild subject is such a hard thing to aquire maybe that's why there are so few comments?

Bless ya for the time me olde mate good to waffle a while

stu
 
Hi Stu, lovely capture, I think the flare is going to be tricky to deal with, I think the only why to reduce the flare is a longer lens hood or shifting your angle to the sun ie getting the lens in some shade.
Personally I think the hazy flare works for the light you have there, I'd be tempted to lift the brightness a tad more then drop the black level a tad more, just my taste.

Good luck with the images, I'm yet to get a truely backlit image..
 
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I think Gav is right regarding the flare , you need to position yourself where your not getting the flare , maybe sightly to one side more would do it ?
 
@ Gav @Lepus Gav cheers for chiming in, Mark for the second reply I've been musing..........and found a read which might be worth sharing.haven't had time to read it yet. Lads being pragmatic I don't think one can have detail with this much light banging into the lens.so maybe one should focus on the rim light and plausibly under expose.Mark sure not to everyone's taste, but hey focusing on the light and the "ring of fire" is maybe the best tactic in this sort of full boor light in the lens senario?

Gav 400do hood I would imagine to be very similar to your 500/4.II've shot longside said lens don't think they are hellish different. Lads I sort of don't want to find ways around shooting into that light.......moreso ways to work with said light..............I'm fascinated by it...........Mark I got images as hares came very close and away from the sun say 3/4oclock.sun beiing 12, they are lovely an all but it's sort of what I've already done.

I'm desparate to try and replicate this senario.Gav as ya mention tis a rare thing for me too. At this time before reading anything .and more thoughts arising here.I thiink my take is going back to manual NOT knocking me SS about DOH...IE keep around 1/2000 ( there's always the chance of boxing) and basically set an exposure facing away from sun and then under expose from that by maybe 2stops maybe 3......sure alot of wishful thinking in getting a second chance..but we have a prime little stop worked out and lots of hares are moviing through it.

I'll maybe come back laters with a link to a read..........if I can find it that is :runaway: ;)

thanks both

stu
 
Gav. said:
I think you should work with the light, I think the flare adds something to the image, it has a nice feel/atmosphere to the image, rather than being technically correct.
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Yeah mate utterly agree.( #erm we all should) as mentioned somewhere before wildlife toggin' is not just about me being besotted with a beastis and trying to steal it's soul.................................. tis more.I want to paint with light ,so yeah I desparately want to fiind a way to make the best of "that" light

Second post.haze tool........ no mate I haven't..............but although my image is PP'd to hell...............and PP is a ferkin knife fight for me, PP isn't what I'm questing for............ learning how to use me camera better at point of capture is (y)

Gav have a read here.this is what I think we need to learn before we( that We is wider than you and me mate no one here has told me how to do this:)) are in that rare position of beastie and sun behind.....The words make much sense to me and I adore the images, think I'm on the right track buddy with time we might see.?

www.naturettl.com

Backlighting in Wildlife Photography: Creative Use of Light –...

The wildlife photography lighting tips in this tutorial will inspire you to get out, embrace the light and shoot creative photos!
www.naturettl.com www.naturettl.com

Oh and yeah first leveret of the year I mentioned somewhere as a maybe is just that fink it's 12 14 weeks old...... how does that work when was boxing when was it born how on earth is it still here??????????????? .might come back later and show ya . I've tagged ickle one twice now,ha I know where it lives it's MINE:love:
 
I think you're on it with the shooting, I think it's just a case of getting the moment right and mother nature lining up the light with the beast. Looking at some of the images in the link, I'm guessing the sun was a smidge higher than what you had. I think luck is going to be needed to get it right without a bit of tinkering with software after getting the image.

Great to hear about the ickle beast.

Good luck (y)
 
Gav. said:
I think you're on it with the shooting, I think it's just a case of getting the moment right and mother nature lining up the light with the beast. Looking at some of the images in the link, I'm guessing the sun was a smidge higher than what you had. I think luck is going to be needed to get it right without a bit of tinkering with software after getting the image.

Great to hear about the ickle beast.

Good luck (y)
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Ahh man the joy of it............................ kidlets in April ( done 'em in Feb Gav no idea how that works either :LOL: ).....................Mark it's still back lit it's where you suggested and where I mentioned I have some of those frames ( lol I'll never believe anyone actually believes me when I say that but hey) so here's dat............but it doesn't float my boat in the same way as maybe what I'll post in a while of same leveret working against that light.....................

so sure I have me details now bar my failiings SS too low. still have rim light...but that mad gorgeous light that floats my boat as a guy that paints is no longer a player

_S2I2009 First kidlet 24 Tdn smj by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

Always luck Gav but an unlucky guy like moi finds other ways:headbang:
 
pooley said:
Stu,

Might have a bit of time later, fire me the RAW vi wetransfer if you would t mind.

Pm me if you need my email address afain

Mike
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Mike I'd love ya to work on the RAW which is compromised. ...but it's not that this thread is not about PP

Mike I need to know how to deal with the situation in camera first... make the best RAW......... that's where I need you to educate me.........


If you have any time spare could you teach me that first please? should I be underexposing? I'm not making the grade with my EXP Mike , I know what I want to make but back of camera is no where near............

Mate does that make sense there is no way you will patronise me I'm waay too humble and I adore being taught by you................. I just need to know how to shoot under the sun and make a RAW worthy of your time..not use PP to bend my failings into the image I'm trying to make .

I will shoot ya a PM 'cause I need other help (y)
 
I guess we are all different with different tastes , but I love that 2nd image and feel it`s spot on light / exposure wise . I would love to see what Mike does with your raw file Stu , he is so gifted at enhancements .
 
Hi Stu,

Not seen the RAW yet but a few thoughts as I had a bit of spare time.

First up, shooting into the sun, the RAW file is going to look awful. They pretty much all do, as there will be limited detail in the file at this stage. What is important is you think about the finished shot prior to pressing the shutter button

There are 2 main ways go shooting into the light. The hardest way is to shoot direct at the setting sun and get your subject in between you and the sun. Pretty much guaranteed a silhouette here but by playing with white balance and curves layers later you can get a great shot. Not easy to do in fields because of the trees, and even harder with unpredictable and easily spooked subjects.

The more normal way is to have the sun just out of frame. If the above silhouette scenario had the sun coming at you from 12 o'clock on a watch dial, then you're looking more at having the sun at maybe 11 o'clock now.

Again, you/re not going to get the detail you will from the light coming from behind or side lighting, so don't expect the same levels of detail. then again, you have the opportunity now to drop your ISO and shutter speed as you will not be capturing ultimate detail), and close the aperture more if you want to go for a dark and moody frame.

For me though, it goes back to the same as almost any frame I shoot - expose to the right but try your best not to blow any highlights as that'll affect the colour in your rim lighting.

From then on, then you need to do a little in post - its unavoidable but actually quite easy - no posh techniques here.

First up, you are likely to get flare. Using a lens hood is a must and helps limit it. You then have 2 options - use it as a feature in the shot or clone it out. On the screenshots I'll put up below, all I did was duplicate the background layer, press J and got the spot healing tool and click once on each of the 2 flare spots at the base of the shot.

From then on its all down to personal taste.

I've used screenshots here rather than regular shots to show you the curves layers I used.

Option 1 - light and dreamy.

light-hares-TP.jpg

A single curves layer set to normal. The curve was lifted to right to push the highlights a little and if you look to the bottom left of the curve you'll see I also raised that to lift the darks and give some more detail there

Option 2 - dark and moody

dark-hares-TP-.jpg

On the same exact curves layer I left the top right adjustment in the same place and simply moved the lower left box to make an S curve leaving you with a dark rim lit shot with a tiny amount of detail left

Option 3 - really going dark

blacks-TP.jpg

Doesn't show great here because its screenshots but this time I've added a selective colours layer, chose black, then boosted the blacks. Now its all about the rim light and nothing else

Option 4 - a hybrid.

lightened-face-TP-.jpg

I got rid of the selective colour layer I used in option 3 and returned a little more detail to the faces. All I did was use a dodge and burn layer and restore some detail so you can at least see the shape of the hares head.

To set that layer up, press 'alt' (option on some keyboards) and the icon on the bottom ro of the layers pane, second from the right - a box with a plus sign in it. Choose the mode as 'overlay' and tick the 50% box. Use a brush at 10%opacity, and paint white onto the layer to lighten the area you want to chance. More clicks equal a lighter area. you can do the same to darken by setting the brush box to black.

Hope that gives you a little starter - get the sun where you want it - control the flare unless its part of the shot - and protect your highlights to aid with the rim lighting

Mike
 
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I do not recommend underexposing; you are always better off collecting as much light as possible. If you underexpose an image like this you will have very little information available, and that will rapidly lead to artifacts (banding/etc) with any edits. You can always reduce the exposure in post with no real penalties. It is really dark scenes that benefit the most from "exposing to the right."

The next hurdle to get over with atmospheric images is "balance;" balance between what you can see/make out and the mood the image invokes. Basically, clarity and detail destroy mood and atmosphere... you can't have both. You have to make up your mind what kind of image you are going for, and if it's not a mood/atmosphere type image; maybe skip taking the image at all in some situations (e.g. morning fog). And if it is a mood/atmosphere type image, accept that it is an "artistic" approach; readily sacrifice detail etc to make the image that makes you happy, and accept that others may not like it.

So I took your original image and pushed it in two different directions... the first is lighter, airier, happier, and makes more use of the haze.

53657718437_f29fd3f844_b-2.jpg

The second is darker, moodier, a bit more dramatic; it makes more use of the backlight/highlights (I applied a second edit to bring out the front rabbit's eyes just a bit).

53657718437_f29fd3f844_b-2.jpg

IMO, the first works a little better in this particular case because it is also an action/interaction image. But neither is "right," and both actually deemphasize detail/contrast/clarity from the original post.
 
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Lepus said:
I guess we are all different with different tastes , but I love that 2nd image and feel it`s spot on light / exposure wise . I would love to see what Mike does with your raw file Stu , he is so gifted at enhancements .
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Yes We are Mark and I'd never want to change that.....I'm driving a couple of hours to graft Mark so had to go to bed EARLY............... so have only just sent Mike the file.if with my given idiocyncracies with computers and my painfully slow inter web .THANKS BT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . IF it gets to him then We will see where this goes. (y) (y)
 
Mike this will take time for me to dijest .I ain't the sharpest tool in the box as you know thank you so so much for doing this , your time ETC.....you should have a RAW now? But walk through it when you have time please mate

LOL and yeah I did have a moment when I saw the RAW's :runaway::LOL:
 
sk66 said:
I do not recommend underexposing; you are always better off collecting as much light as possible. If you underexpose an image like this you will have very little information available, and that will rapidly lead to artifacts (banding/etc) with any edits. You can always reduce the exposure in post with no real penalties. It is really dark scenes that benefit the most from "exposing to the right."

The next hurdle to get over with atmospheric images is "balance;" balance between what you can see/make out and the mood the image invokes. Basically, clarity and detail destroy mood and atmosphere... you can't have both. You have to make up your mind what kind of image you are going for, and if it's not a mood/atmosphere type image; maybe skip taking the image at all in some situations (e.g. morning fog). And if it is a mood/atmosphere type image, accept that it is an "artistic" approach; readily sacrifice detail etc to make the image that makes you happy, and accept that others may not like it.

So I took your original image and pushed it in two different directions... the first is lighter, airier, happier, and makes more use of the haze.

View attachment 420498

The second is darker, moodier, a bit more dramatic; it makes more use of the backlight/highlights (I applied a second edit to bring out the front rabbit's eyes just a bit).

View attachment 420503

IMO, the first works a little better in this particular case because it is also an action/interaction image. But neither is "right," and both actually deemphasize detail/contrast/clarity from the original post.
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Steve, as with all the posters here, thank you so so much for your time and thoughts .mate I'm proper grateful.. I really am........ I kinda hope very quietly that more than me will be learning here whilst you guys share thoughts and edits. and wisdom

I adore that it's so cool. thankyou.

Stephen I'm me I'm always going to lean towards mood and atmosphere , whether folks like or no doesn't matter,


Wildlife Photography to me is my take on the beasties I adore...tis an expression of myself and them and light

Pin sharp and detail, is always something one should aspire to in our genre,but it can't be the whole story.and yes your second edit is the one that appeals to me .and yes as with Mike if ya had a RAW it would be other........... I understand that.ha also amazed that you both did so so much with a jpeg

bud can't thank you enough I like an exchange of ideas in a thread without conflict just what about this matey whaddya fink?

stu
 
Stu,

Hope you don't mind me putting my thoughts here rather than on a PM

First up 2 things.

1 - I really like this shot, and
2 - Jesus man, get that sensor cleaned!

Having now seen the RAW, you got the exposure pretty much right for the shot. ISO was only 250, so in this case definitely raise that to give you a faster speed than 1/640th, but I think you got away with that on this occasion.

The RAW was as flat as a pancake which is to be expected in this scenario. Light is coming from a nice angle, we've already discussed the flare. I don't mind it in the background but I don't like it in the foreground so for me it has to be cloned out. Others will differ in their views.

Once that's out of the way, there really isn't a lot more to add at the shooting stage, so now it comes down to your artistic interpretation of the shot. I reckon I could do 10 different versions of this and they would all have their plus and minus points. Its not like a regular front lit shot where things are not far off being with er right or wrong, there is loads of scope for you to put your own spin on things

As it happens, I've just come off a night shift and taken the dogs for an early morning walk along the canal with all atmospheric mist on the water in lovely morning light so this is the mood I'm currently in!

stu-backlit-TP.jpg

Mike
 
Mike I'm glad you posted here hopefully this might help someone else
2nd sensor clean DIY smearaway? which fills me with dread .although I'm not to bad with my hands.just lacking in confidence or where? I've read too much about 1DXii sensors

Buddy can't thank you enough for your time I'm in a mad mad rush doing job's trrying to create a window to go back so a more indepth reply might take a day or 2

first Q though.you mentioned cloning out the lens flare........how?

Thanks for taking the time Mike tis so appreciated even though I'm a scatterbrain..lol ta for liking the image too that's really cool
 
I suspect a down side of wild animal photography is you only get what they give you. Mostly for animals I shoot dog's, usually trained dogs. Get a dog on a point and need to move to a better spot, "whoa" means stop and stand still or continue to stand still while I move. I don't think you could get those rabbit's to understand that. But keep going, the law of averages says that sooner of later your gonna score. But even shoot the borderline shots. Good think about digital you can see what you got right now and not wasting film screwing up. Just keep shooting and pay attention to what your doing. I used to shoot my chickens running around outside and somehow got a shot I really liked of one f my rooster's! I could not go out and duplicate it today, chicken's aren't much into posing!
 
Don Fischer said:
I suspect a down side of wild animal photography is you only get what they give you. Mostly for animals I shoot dog's, usually trained dogs. Get a dog on a point and need to move to a better spot, "whoa" means stop and stand still or continue to stand still while I move. I don't think you could get those rabbit's to understand that. But keep going, the law of averages says that sooner of later your gonna score. But even shoot the borderline shots. Good think about digital you can see what you got right now and not wasting film screwing up. Just keep shooting and pay attention to what your doing. I used to shoot my chickens running around outside and somehow got a shot I really liked of one f my rooster's! I could not go out and duplicate it today, chicken's aren't much into posing!
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Cheers for the input Don (y)

Yaknow I honestly don't know if there is a downside..................sure you might get nothin' at all bar a wet ass and no fish :D But that said you never know what you are gonna it might even be something one has never seen before in a lifetime.like the fox deer fightiing by our house a few weeks back.

For me I need to be out tis soul food don, keeps me head straight ( ok as straight as it will ever be;) Focusing on one species, well even someone like me learns.the more ya go the more ya learn, the more ya learn
the bigger ya chance of an image.

In other words you learn what tgs call fieldcraft.you learnt the art of getting in the right place at the right time with a beastie

Then if ya keep going back the next stage of the learning cycle starts to manifest it's self one's images improve,one starts to explore more, the images you have already aquired sort of push one to find sommit other.

Yes digital is wicked because one presses the shutter, there is a freedom within that it's so liberating.

So for me wildlife image making is a niche I adore being part of.tis challenging in so many ways I see fings few do and make a shedload of duff frames and everynow and then say to myself that's ok mate.............it's a joy for me dude.not only the toggin but the folks.like here this thread: look at the effort others have put in to try and make me a tiny bit better

I love that bro I don't really think I deserve that help but I love that it's there

One day I'll make a good piccy for 'em... Don........I'm preddy driiven anyways................... but both the genre and the folks keep me so


Make sense buddy?

take care

stu
 
@pooley Mike when ya have time.............................

Bud i've finally sat down with a little time and gone back through the file..........loadsa artistic licence here which suits me fine ( you knew that anyway)....I've too and froed between your edit and mine .your curves are more aggressive than my original post.? .........honestly Mike I prefer the colour palette on this image to your edit where I'm not matching your edit is detail in that front hare.I'm so lacking there by comparision to your version.

Mike I'm preddy sure you have taught me already how to pull that detail, give me time to go find an old thread an maybe I'll come back again

cheers for the help no worried on crop that's simpler

_S2I2047 d'n's smj tdn light 'n'hare ii by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

stu
 
Glad its helping Stu - there really is no right and wrong with shots like this, so don't worry about putting your own spin on things. I'll send you my TIFF via wetransfer so you can load it up in photoshop and see my thought process

On the screenshot below you'll see one of the curves layers is highlighted - this is the one that concentrates on the detail in the front hare. Note I have it set to 'luminosity'

Screenshot-2024-04-22-at-21.31.02.jpg

This is a comparison between having that layer active and inactive

curves.jpg

Not the biggest of differences, but by now its all about the little changes.

I then resized the file to fit here - 1024px on the longest side and did the sharpening taught to me by Andreas a long time ago. It sounds complicated but in reality its really easy. The idea being you can push the sharpening further without attracting the sharpening halos that are obvious with over-sharpening.

Basically after the resize, click on the base layer and merge the layers (layers tab, then down to merge layers). Copy that background layer and go to smart sharpen, and set the sharpening at about 400 with a radius of about 0.3. This is way way in excess of the normal sharpening amount but stay with me. Change the layer mode to 'darken'.

You then copy this new layer again, then change the mode to 'lighten' and reduce the opacity of this new 'lighten' layer to 50%.

click back onto the' darken' layer and combine the darken and lighten layers by holding down the control key and clicking the lighten layer. Keep the control button pressed down and press 'G' to make them into a single layer. You can ten reduce the overall sharpening by using the opacity slider if necessary. I find I usually have to reduce the opacity as I've overdone the sharpening at this point.

This a comparison between the non-sharpened and sharpened hare

comparison.jpg

Give it a go on your file and see if it helps at all

regards

Mike
 
Mike hopefully file is downloaded..............I'm starting to fold. To me these steps are massive there is a HUGE difference in sharps within these steps, thanks for sharing not only with me but the lads/lasses here, so much time I'm so grateful.

this will take time for me to understand mate which I just don't have..if I'm alive after op next week I'll get a window to really dig at this. give me time bro

Andeas to me is so clever with post Mike.. he's like you............ y'all just produce these images I aspire too ...... so gifted so inspiring.

I do try to get on the other place Mike i've paid me subs 'n' all but don't seem able to get in anymore.

thanks kiddo this might take a while
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Mike hopefully file is downloaded..............I'm starting to fold. To me these steps are massive there is a HUGE difference in sharps within these steps, thanks for sharing not only with me but the lads/lasses here, so much time I'm so grateful.

this will take time for me to understand mate which I just don't have..if I'm alive after op next week I'll get a window to really dig at this. give me time bro

Andeas to me is so clever with post Mike.. he's like you............ y'all just produce these images I aspire too ...... so gifted so inspiring.

I do try to get on the other place Mike i've paid me subs 'n' all but don't seem able to get in anymore.

thanks kiddo this might take a while
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Glad it’s helpful Stu, whatever the op is next week, good luck
 
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