How do I expose, for glamour, while shooting into the sun with fill-in flash?

"How do I expose, for glamour"
Thats a great question that needs exploring

"How do I expose, for glamour, while shooting into the sun with fill-in flash?"
Areas to look at:

- reflector (the sun is a big light, borrow some of it)
- off camera flash (use a flash meter)
- use something like the Sb800 in remote mode

remember
- its all about balance
 
Richard King said:
<snip>


- its all about balance
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(y), I know that :bang: :bang: :bang:

The question is, how do I measure what the flash ought to be set to, to ensure that it is balanced? I know it would depend on the exposure I am after, but let's, for argument sake, say I just want it neutrally balanced as fill-in!
 
I'm all in favour of scrims, and that will help dramatically with lighting your subject (it'll give you a lot more control).

But, it still won't prevent the need to shoot at ridiculously fast speeds to get the background under control.

It will make it easier to control the shadows and other issues though.

If you just want fill, and aren't using light meters, just set the remote group on TTL with -1EV compensation, and it should work just fine. :)
 
Wail said:
(y), I know that :bang: :bang: :bang:

The question is, how do I measure what the flash ought to be set to, to ensure that it is balanced? I know it would depend on the exposure I am after, but let's, for argument sake, say I just want it neutrally balanced as fill-in!
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The easiest way would be to chimp it with a big black cloth over your head, like this Harrison Dark Cloth http://www.cameraessentials.com/classic_dark_cloth.htm Or bodge it with a black T-shirt.

Or a flash meter will of course tell you what you want to know. It will put some numbers on just how many miles adrift of ambient you are with the flash! :D
 
You know, I was thinking, how useful is a flash meter if you're going outside regular sync speeds into FP sync territory?

I don't imagine it'll be all that useful at all, as it'll either measure just the first flash pulse, or it'll measure the entire sequence. Either way, your camera's sensor is going to see more than just the first pulse, but less than the entire sequence.
 
If you can't see the LCD get a light meter. People worked without LCDs for years.

First you measure the ambient light. I reckon the sunny16 rule is going to be more like the sunny22 rule or higher in Saudi.

Take a measurement of the ambient light and then decide what you want to do with it, balance it/fill it/over power it.

Say for example it is sunny16 and you've got ISO200, 1/250, f16 and you want to under expose the sky/background/whatever by one stop then you're aiming for ISO200, 1/250, F22.

This is now your chosen camera setting so you need to make the flash work at ISO200 and F22. Fire, meter, adjust. Repeat until you hit F22 on the flash metering.

Problems you could encounter:

1: You want a shallow depth of field which means ND filters (previously discussed) or upping the shutter speed to allow you to open the lens up. Doh, the flash meter won't work because you can't measure a flash working in FP/HSS mode (to the best of my knowledge).

2: You're trying to work at the max sync speed but your radio triggers are causing a bit of a delay so you're not getting the full duration of the flash being measured. Shoot at 1/125 and stop down or reduce the ISO. Or use PC cables if practical.

I like meters, they give you real numbers to work in, I find trying to use a histogram alone a bit subjective/hit&miss.

Where are you putting the sun? Above, behind or in front. If a hard light source is suitable why not use the sun as your main light and use the flash as a fill light 1.5 stops below the ambient?

As an alternative to Richard's cloth idea which would no doubt work you might be able to pick up a large film changing for less money. These thing are designed to be light proof, stuff your head and the camera inside it and I reckon you'll be able to see the LCD fine.
 
Kaouthia said:
You know, I was thinking, how useful is a flash meter if you're going outside regular sync speeds into FP sync territory?

I don't imagine it'll be all that useful at all, as it'll either measure just the first flash pulse, or it'll measure the entire sequence. Either way, your camera's sensor is going to see more than just the first pulse, but less than the entire sequence.
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I don't think a flash meter would work for FP/HSS mode anyway but in theory if you had a way of triggering the FP/HSS manually then it could meter for it because you set the shutter duration on the meter. I've noticed different readings where I've fired a flash on full power and changed the meter from 1/250 to 1/500.
 
Theoretically Kev, I completely agree.

But, in reality. If you're shooting at 1/250th (at least on a Nikon body), then switch to 1/320th, which is only a 1/3rd stop difference, your actual input from flash can drop by over a stop.

Are light meters smart enough to figure this out? :)
 
Dunno about the maths john but a lot depends on flash power. This probably doesn't apply in Wail's case but hopefully he won't mind the discussion.

If you're shooting at 1/250 and your flash power is 1/64 then assuming you could sync at 1/320 (think D70 maybe) then you won't notice any difference. The problem comes when using higher power settings which come with longer durations.

As an example, I've used my Sekonic 308 to measure a Metz flash firing at full power at 1/250. I've then changed the meter to 1/500 and lost half a stop of flash power. This is caused by one or both of two things.

1) The flash duration is longer than 1/500 so the meter doesn't see all of it.

2) The flash duration might be 1/600 (so discharging completely with 1/100 to spare) but the delay between hitting the test button on the meter or the transmitter (Skyport in my case) is perhaps 1/150. This means that the total time from firing until the end of the flash pulse is 1/450 and therefore the meter doesn't see it all.
 
That's what I'm saying, constant flash power.

1/250th @ full power
1/320th @ full power

1/250th == single pop
1/320th == several pops totalling up to "full power", but it can't maintain it throughout the *entire* exposure, because there is no point at which the two curtains are fully open, so some light is lost.

SB-900 flash durations at full power are around 1/900th of a second. But, in high speed sync mode, it's not a single full power flash.
 
Sorry I didn't realise we were comparing one pop with multi-pops.

In that case I'd say no the meter won't know the difference all it will measure is the total light for that duration. The problem is some cameras sync above 1/250 and some won't even sync that high (KM5d would only sync at 1/160, or 1/125 if you had the shake reduction turned on).

With some testing though I'd say you could make notes on how much power you lose in camera compared to what the meter saw at different shutter speeds.
 
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Kaouthia said:
I'm all in favour of scrims, and that will help dramatically with lighting your subject (it'll give you a lot more control).

But, it still won't prevent the need to shoot at ridiculously fast speeds to get the background under control.

It will make it easier to control the shadows and other issues though.

If you just want fill, and aren't using light meters, just set the remote group on TTL with -1EV compensation, and it should work just fine. :)
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I like the idea of the scrim, as a partial solution; but I have to look into the practicality of using it, as the locations are too windy and too ragged. But, I'm sure it is doable.

I don't want to go and buy a lightmeter just for the sake of hoping it may do something. I don't want more gadgets to fiddle with, and would rather not go that route, but if it is a partial solution then I'm OKay trying it.


HoppyUK said:
The easiest way would be to chimp it with a big black cloth over your head, like this Harrison Dark Cloth http://www.cameraessentials.com/classic_dark_cloth.htm Or bodge it with a black T-shirt.

Or a flash meter will of course tell you what you want to know. It will put some numbers on just how many miles adrift of ambient you are with the flash! :D
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Trust me, it doesn't work. Let's say I use the cloth, as linked, the light bouncing off the ground is not like anything you've possibly seen. I kid you not, with the sun behind me, at 4:00pm (sunset is at 7:00pm, so you can get a rough idea of the angle location of the sun), the light is as if someone has headlights flashing into your eyes :bang: I've tried a T-Shirt, but light leaks in, hits my ugly face and bounces back on to the LCD making it impossible to see. I've tried, going into the car to get some reading (shade), but it's way too much light.

The only thing I haven't tried is getting into a well sealed tent that closes up on me; but that's way too impractical for me to keep doing, not to mention the sweat running down my face would make my eyes useless to read anything.

Keep in mind, temperatures are closer to 50C now. The amount of sweat is scary. I've had to get the models to sit into a sauna / spa the day before the shoot and limit their liquid intake so that they don't sweat. Hence why we can only shoot for the two ~ three hours at most before they start to suffer dehydration.

Please don't stop the ideas pouring in, please; but sadly, until it gets to about 6:30pm the ambient light makes it impossible to read the LCD; and if I was to just use the light from 6:30 to sunset, that's only 30 minutes of shooting. With models costing me £400 for the shoot, that's pushing it for me.
 
Kev M said:
In that case I'd say no the meter won't know the difference all it will measure is the total light for that duration. The problem is some cameras sync above 1/250 and some won't even sync that high (KM5d would only sync at 1/160, or 1/125 if you had the shake reduction turned on).
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I was specifically talking about Wail's situation, which is Nikon body with SB-900s, which will sync all the way up to 1/8000th, but, yup, it works a bit differently to regular flash. :)
 
Kev M said:
I don't think a flash meter would work for FP/HSS mode anyway but in theory if you had a way of triggering the FP/HSS manually then it could meter for it because you set the shutter duration on the meter. I've noticed different readings where I've fired a flash on full power and changed the meter from 1/250 to 1/500.
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I haven't a clue on this, I'm too new to flashes; stupid me, kept it too late in my life to try and learn it :wacky:. But I guess, it's never too late.


Kaouthia said:
Theoretically Kev, I completely agree.

But, in reality. If you're shooting at 1/250th (at least on a Nikon body), then switch to 1/320th, which is only a 1/3rd stop difference, your actual input from flash can drop by over a stop.

Are light meters smart enough to figure this out? :)
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Kev M said:
Dunno about the maths john but a lot depends on flash power. This probably doesn't apply in Wail's case but hopefully he won't mind the discussion.

If you're shooting at 1/250 and your flash power is 1/64 then assuming you could sync at 1/320 (think D70 maybe) then you won't notice any difference. The problem comes when using higher power settings which come with longer durations.

As an example, I've used my Sekonic 308 to measure a Metz flash firing at full power at 1/250. I've then changed the meter to 1/500 and lost half a stop of flash power. This is caused by one or both of two things.

1) The flash duration is longer than 1/500 so the meter doesn't see all of it.

2) The flash duration might be 1/600 (so discharging completely with 1/100 to spare) but the delay between hitting the test button on the meter or the transmitter (Skyport in my case) is perhaps 1/150. This means that the total time from firing until the end of the flash pulse is 1/450 and therefore the meter doesn't see it all.
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I don't mind at all, this is a great learning opportunity for me, so thank you for all the time and effort you lot are putting into this.

Question, comes to mind, with regards to flash synch. speed. I recall the D40 has a faster synch speed than the D700 :shrug:; would that be of any use whatsoever, or am I going off in a tangent :bonk:?
 
Wail said:
Please don't stop the ideas pouring in.
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What about one of these? Packs up just like a big reflector or a Hilite.

http://www.beachcabina.com/

There's a lot of places you can order those in the US that have different colours (such as black).

And it doubles up with its indended purpose of giving your models somewhere to change in the middle of a shoot with a little privacy. :)
 
Sadly I'm of the opinion that Wail either needs a container load of SB6-900s ala McNally or he needs studio type flash ala Jason Cole & Tomas.

Either that or forego the wide open aperture so that he can make the shutter speed a bit more sensible than 1/4000.
 
I thought we'd established that fighting bright sun was a tough job anyway, that desert sun was tougher still and not realistic with hotshoe guns, let alone hotshoe guns on HSS mode :eek: Not a snowball's chance in the desert.

So trying to meter HSS seems irrelevant. But you could do it easily enough by disabling the pre-flash with the FEL button, thus firing the pre-flash separately from the main pulse. However, HSS is effectively ambient light (in fact it is ambient light - just like turning a room light on and off very quickly while you take a normal picture) so a flash meter reading wouldn't be much help because you cannot use all of the flash's output! (ie HSS exposure is dependend on shutter speed, whereas regular flash isn't.)
 
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Wail said:
Question, comes to mind, with regards to flash synch. speed. I recall the D40 has a faster synch speed than the D700 :shrug:; would that be of any use whatsoever, or am I going off in a tangent :bonk:?
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Yes it would help because it means you can sync your flashes in normal mode rather than FP/HSS mode at a faster speed than you can with the D700. The sync speed then would be limited by the flash duration at full power.

But will your lenses work with a D40? Might be worth keeping an eye open for a D70 to experiment with.

Have you get a mate/assistant you can experiment on this stuff with before you go spending any more money on models?
 
Kaouthia said:
What about one of these? Packs up just like a big reflector or a Hilite.

http://www.beachcabina.com/

There's a lot of places you can order those in the US that have different colours (such as black).

And it doubles up with its indended purpose of giving your models somewhere to change in the middle of a shoot with a little privacy. :)
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Yup, we use some of these are dressing tents for the models; but the thing with these is that they can't be positioned anywhere close to where the shoot takes place. It's a good 3 minutes running down the dune, 10 minutes to get back up. Not ideal, to keep doing I'm afraid.



Kev M said:
Sadly I'm of the opinion that Wail either needs a container load of SB6-900s ala McNally or he needs studio type flash ala Jason Cole & Tomas.

Either that or forego the wide open aperture so that he can make the shutter speed a bit more sensible than 1/4000.
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I am seriously thinking of studio lights and a good generator for continued power source :shrug:. I think it will prove to be the cheaper option, with best output.


HoppyUK said:
I thought we'd established that fighting bright sun was a tough job anyway, that desert sun was tougher still and not realistic with hotshoe guns, let alone hotshoe guns on HSS mode :eek: Not a snowball's chance in the desert.

So trying to meter HSS seems irrelevant. But you could do it easily enough by disabling the pre-flash with the FEL button, thus firing the pre-flash separately from the main pulse.
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Tell me about it. I honestly didn't have a clue as to how hard this was going to be. Had I known, I wouldn't have gone down the SB900 route to start with, as they're costing us a fortune to buy and supply with batteries.
 
Kev M said:
Yes it would help because it means you can sync your flashes in normal mode rather than FP/HSS mode at a faster speed than you can with the D700. The sync speed then would be limited by the flash duration at full power.

But will your lenses work with a D40? Might be worth keeping an eye open for a D70 to experiment with.

Have you get a mate/assistant you can experiment on this stuff with before you go spending any more money on models?
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I had two D70, sold them in Swansea, another stupid thing I've done :bang: ... Just so you lot realise, this is bringing out the most stupid decisions I've done in my life with cameras. Don't go trying to out-stupid my stupidity!

As for experimenting before we take the models, yes, we've done that; but I hate it. Using a large sized Whinny The Pooh, but that's a very sad situation to have to shoot Whinny in a Saudi desert :razz:; but yes, I guess we'll need to experiment more before we go back to taking models out there.

I guess for now, I will keep the model shoots for indoors where I am very comfortable with controlling the lights with various modifiers, or to late-ish evening for that one hour where the light out in the desert is just about OK.

I will also go on to read about studio lights with a power generator.

Thank you all, each and every one of you (y).
 
HoppyUK said:
that desert sun was tougher still and not realistic with hotshoe guns, let alone hotshoe guns on HSS mode :eek: Not a snowball's chance in the desert.
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That's pretty much the *only* way to do it unless you slap a crapload of ND over your lens.
 
Wail said:
Yup, we use some of these are dressing tents for the models; but the thing with these is that they can't be positioned anywhere close to where the shoot takes place. It's a good 3 minutes running down the dune, 10 minutes to get back up. Not ideal, to keep doing I'm afraid.
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If you're lugging all your lights and other gear down there, is it that much more of a pain to have somebody take one of these down? they only take 10 seconds to put up and flop back into their bag again.
 
Kev M said:
First you measure the ambient light. I reckon the sunny16 rule is going to be more like the sunny22 rule or higher in Saudi.
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the sunny 16 rule is the same on the moon, saudi and the UK, it is to do with how far we are from the sun

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Someone said something about a D70 - you can high speed sync one at 1/500 s with a SB800

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Dont ignore the (not so high tech) method of using a reflector - That can be used with flash, and a good one will do half the job for you

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There are methods of using modded cables, to make some cameras sync faster

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You could consider kit like the Lencarta Safari 600 Generator, with a beauty dish and a ringflash. That will overpower the sun easily

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I use a piece of cloth over the back of most DSLR's in the UK (all be it it is often my jacket) out in the field, just improvise

---

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-assignment-controlling-daylight-pt-1.html

+ the rest of the site is a pretty good resource
 
They have to be anchored well, otherwise they'd fly off like a kite. On the dunes, there's no way to anchor them, the sand is either too soft. What we do, set them up at base camp and fill them with rocks, the rocks keep it anchored, but it still tries to fly off and flapping all around.

Imagine holding a reflector that big in a windy situation, you'd need a few guys to hold it down, and even then may not be possible.

I will give it a try next time I'm out (this coming Thursday), and see if it can be held by a couple of guys while I'm inside chimping.
 
Wail said:
Yup, we use some of these are dressing tents for the models; but the thing with these is that they can't be positioned anywhere close to where the shoot takes place. It's a good 3 minutes running down the dune, 10 minutes to get back up. Not ideal, to keep doing I'm afraid.





I am seriously thinking of studio lights and a good generator for continued power source :shrug:. I think it will prove to be the cheaper option, with best output.




Tell me about it. I honestly didn't have a clue as to how hard this was going to be. Had I known, I wouldn't have gone down the SB900 route to start with, as they're costing us a fortune to buy and supply with batteries.
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Wail bud, I could refer you to some earlier posts ;) :D The facts of the matter are these.

The sun is very bright and you need a huge amount of studio flash power to match it, let alone beat it in the desert.

The only way to do it is to nuke it with masses of flash power. You then have the problem of the flash x-sync shutter speed so you then have to add neutral density fliters to reduce the brightness of everything down to the x-sync max.

Things like HSS and the x-sync tricks you can play with cameras like the D70/D40 and a couple of others that have switching CCDs (almost all current cameras use CMOS) or the Hypersync feature of Pocket Wizards does nothing about the fact that the flash isn't anywhere near bright enough in the first place even if you can sync it.

The easiest way (and it's not at all easy) would be to build a bank of reflectors into a parabola and focus a pool of light on to the model. You'd have to hose her down at frequent intervals (she'll poach nicely) but at least you'd get the exposure level you want.

Can't you just wait until the sun goes down?
 
I wish I had a horde of assistants following me around on every shoot. ;)
 
Wail said:
They have to be anchored well, otherwise they'd fly off like a kite. On the dunes, there's no way to anchor them, the sand is either too soft. What we do, set them up at base camp and fill them with rocks, the rocks keep it anchored, but it still tries to fly off and flapping all around.

Imagine holding a reflector that big in a windy situation, you'd need a few guys to hold it down, and even then may not be possible.

I will give it a try next time I'm out (this coming Thursday), and see if it can be held by a couple of guys while I'm inside chimping.
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thats what the side of your car/jeep is for
 
Richard King said:
<snip>
---

Dont ignore the (not so high tech) method of using a reflector - That can be used with flash, and a good one will do half the job for you

---

<snip>

---

You could consider kit like the Lencarta Safari 600 Generator, with a beauty dish and a ringflash. That will overpower the sun easily

---

I use a piece of cloth over the back of most DSLR's in the UK (all be it it is often my jacket) out in the field, just improvise

---

http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-assignment-controlling-daylight-pt-1.html

+ the rest of the site is a pretty good resource
Click to expand...

Tried the reflector, made a good difference, but I don't currently have anything big enough. I am looking into ordering some of them really big ones to mount wall-like.

The Lencarta Safari 600 you talk about, would it be enough for the amount of ambient light I've got here. To give you an example of the amount of light, ISO set to 200, 3-stop ND on lens at f/11, I get a shutter speed of 1/4000s. If I remove the ND filter everything is all washed out, just a while rectangle image I get.

The cloth on the back of the camera, doesn't work at all here :shrug:

Thank you for the suggestions. I think I want to go with studio lights and a generator, I really don't want to keep buying Speedlights (we're onto 5 now)!


HoppyUK said:
Wail bud, I could refer you to some earlier posts ;) :D The facts of the matter are these.

The sun is very bright and you need a huge amount of studio flash power to match it, let alone beat it in the desert.

The only way to do it is to nuke it with masses of flash power. You then have the problem of the flash x-sync shutter speed so you then have to add neutral density fliters to reduce the brightness of everything down to the x-sync max.

Things like HSS and the x-sync tricks you can play with cameras like the D70/D40 and a couple of others that have switching CCDs (almost all current cameras use CMOS) or the Hypersync feature of Pocket Wizards does nothing about the fact that the flash isn't anywhere near bright enough in the first place even if you can sync it.

The easiest way (and it's not at all easy) would be to build a bank of reflectors into a parabola and focus a pool of light on to the model. You'd have to hose her down at frequent intervals (she'll poach nicely) but at least you'd get the exposure level you want.

Can't you just wait until the sun goes down?
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So, it's the bank of reflectors and pouch the poor soul :p; I can just read the BBC headlines ... "Saudi photographer, on tips from TP, poach a sexy blond model in the desert of Arabia" :bang:. Will not go well with my Visa application to enter UK :razz:

On a more serious note, would you suggest I go with the studio lights and generator or spend the money of the super large reflector?

Problems with the reflectors, wind, mounting them, and as you've said, poaching the model.



Kaouthia said:
I wish I had a horde of assistants following me around on every shoot. ;)
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But I don't have, they cost money, and that's something I don't have .. but it's a necessity to do this. Would have much preferred to have bought a D3x and stuck with Landscape & Nature (34 years been doing that, 34 years and now I waste my money on this project).


Richard King said:
thats what the side of your car/jeep is for
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:LOL:, but the camels are down at base-camp, a good 3 minutes down a sandy dune and another 10 ~ 15 minutes to get back up. I'm too much of an old fart to keep doing that :thumbsdown:
 
Richard King said:
the sunny 16 rule is the same on the moon, saudi and the UK, it is to do with how far we are from the sun
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Wail said:
To give you an example of the amount of light, ISO set to 200, 3-stop ND on lens at f/11, I get a shutter speed of 1/4000s.
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Wail's settings would suggest otherwise. If sunny16 applied there then in theory at F11 he will be somewhere around 1/500. Unless of course he's underexposing the ambient by 6 stops (3 stop filter plus 1/500-1/4000).
 
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Nope, nothing dialled in; but I'm shooting in Manual mode, so that I can bracket my shots.
 
Any chance of you posting some of the test shots Wail, without models if needed so that we can get an idea of what you're trying to achieve and what you're up against?
 
Kev M said:
Any chance of you posting some of the test shots Wail, without models if needed so that we can get an idea of what you're trying to achieve and what you're up against?
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I currently don't have any without the models, and I can't use that, sorry.

I will try and go out there tomorrow, or Thursday, and shoot a few test shots to put-up. I think that would give a much idea of what's going on.
 
Kev M said:
Wail's settings would suggest otherwise. If sunny16 applied there then in theory at F11 he will be somewhere around 1/500. Unless of course he's underexposing the ambient by 6 stops (3 stop filter plus 1/500-1/4000).
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perhaps thats the settings Wail is using to tame the sun with (i.e. the subject will be under exposed)
 
Richard King said:
perhaps thats the settings Wail is using to tame the sun with (i.e. the subject will be under exposed)
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Possibly, but under exposing anything by six stops is going to render it pretty much invisible I'd have thought (thinking about the other things lit by the ambient light such as scenery), unless silhouettes are the order of the day.
 
Wail said:
I currently don't have any without the models, and I can't use that, sorry.

I will try and go out there tomorrow, or Thursday, and shoot a few test shots to put-up. I think that would give a much idea of what's going on.
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No problem Wail. Forgetting the subject that needs illuminated by flash for the minute. Are you getting the environment to look how you want it to?

Out of interest do you think you could take a photo at ISO200, F16, 1/250 for us just so we can see whether sunnny16 works out there. Then perhaps a few shots increasing the shutter speed a stop at a time so that we can see what you're trying to get to in the end.
 
Richard King said:
perhaps thats the settings Wail is using to tame the sun with (i.e. the subject will be under exposed)
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I am exposing for the sun, as was suggested earlier in the thread. I use the ND to bring the shutter speed to within working times (I'm on a D700 which can go to 1/8000, but my friend who's shooting with me is on a D90 so can only go to 1/4000).

I then try to use the flash to light-up my subject. Some of the shots come out very well exposed, but without nuking the sun (that's been shelved for now, as I just want a good exposure), other times the model is either way over / under exposed.

I am having trouble knowing what settings to put the flash on.

Of course, all this is on HSS :shrug:


If I shoot not pointing towards the sun (90 degrees from the sun left or right), I can get shutter speeds down to 1/500 at f/11; very workable, but I'm struggling to set the flash intensity.
 
Kev M said:
No problem Wail. Forgetting the subject that needs illuminated by flash for the minute. Are you getting the environment to look how you want it to?

Out of interest do you think you could take a photo at ISO200, F16, 1/250 for us just so we can see whether sunnny16 works out there. Then perhaps a few shots increasing the shutter speed a stop at a time so that we can see what you're trying to get to in the end.
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Yes, sure, I will go out tomorrow and do that. If I don't make it out tomorrow, then it may have to be Thursday (out weekends are Thursdays and Fridays).

As for the environment, it's workable at this setting, but not as I would want it. I would hope to get the sky to show some definition but it's just a white screen. The landscape are pretty good, good definitions and colours.
 
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Here's the desert shoot I mentioned earlier featuring Joe McNally, he was using about 25 SB900's I think, ranged in banks of eight and one on-camera as commander (the SU800 won't cut it out there either). Also not shot at noon, you notice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90mlK8ktV68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7qEgl2uQHg&feature=related

Logically, some 1500-watt studio lights and battery-packs or some (2nd-hand) location movie-lights would be a cheaper, though less portable option.

I also think you're making a rod to beat yourself with here - maybe the reason we only see this kind of shot taken at dusk is because that's the only time it's practical?

Since there's all that light around at noon, maybe forget the flash altogether and just use loads of scrims, mirrors and reflectors...?


oh and here's the scrim i meantioned earlier as well - the famous 'elephant' shoot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4sNlwKWjaE&feature=related
 
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