How do I expose, for glamour, while shooting into the sun with fill-in flash?

[Wail]

There's been many thread about this, I know, but the situation here is unique, I think / hope.

I’ve read as much as is logically possible to get my head around this. Since getting into using flash, I’ve done nothing other than reading about using them, in their various modes. I am very comfortable and happy using 1, 2 or 3 SB900 in an indoor studio environment, with various modifiers, be it TTL or manual. It’s not a big issue for me controlling the light in that situation. Getting something artistically good is another ballgame and I’ll leave that for now.

What I am struggling with is getting the right amount of fill in flash when shooting out in the sun (doing portraits and glamour out in the desert).

I have the camera on manual & meter for the landscape using matrix metering, have the flash off-camera set on TTL and shooting using Nikon CLS. Be it one, two or three flash, I have them all set to TTL leaving it to the camera to decide on light strength.

I am much happier, when indoors, to use Manual mode for the flash; but the dilemma is that when outdoors there is no way to see what the exposure is like.

What happens, because I can’t see the pictures (nothing can be seen on the LCD due to the excessive light from the sun), I have no clue as to how much light I’m getting from the SB900. I end up bracketing them, +1, +2, +3 … but that’s the problem, it’s all hit & miss (mostly misses).

How do I set the flash so that they are giving me just the right amount of fill-in?

In studio, that’s dead easy, I take a shot and have a look at the picture and histogram; but out in the sun, there is no way I can see the histogram or the image on the screen.

It’s impractical for me to run to a shaded area to try and see what the exposure was like after every shot, just not doable; basically, I am shooting blind :shrug:

I’ve thought of using a lightmeter, but that’s another expense and I’d rather see if may be there’s something I’m doing wrong, or missing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

 

[Suvv]

... What happens, because I can’t see the pictures (nothing can be seen on the LCD due to the excessive light from the sun), ...

... In studio, that’s dead easy, I take a shot and have a look at the picture and histogram; but out in the sun, there is no way I can see the histogram or the image on the screen.

It’s impractical for me to run to a shaded area to try and see what the exposure was like after every shot, just not doable; basically, I am shooting blind :shrug: ...

Someone else will have to give you the high tech answer however for a low tech solution :


View the LCD through a cardboard tube - the inside of a toilet roll is ideal

Sounds so stupid and works so well.

 

[treeman]

Dial in -2/3 stop should be good starting point.

 

[Kaouthia]

Basically that's when you need to be using AutoFP high speed sync mode, and probably half a dozen or more SB-900s, depending on how fast you have to shoot to crush the ambient.

Remember every time you need an extra stop of light from flashes shooting at full power, you're doubling the number of flashes.

1xSB-900
2xSB-900 == +1 stop
4xSB-900 == +2 stops
8xSB-900 == +3 stops
16xSB-900 == +4 stops

When shooting into the sun, you're really not in fill flash territory any more as your subject is a silhouette (assuming that by "into the sun" you mean "the sun is in your shot"). You're pretty much lighting your subject as you would in a studio.

This was shot around 8pm last Saturday while it was still pretty bright. That's the sun behind her.

This was the setup used (four SB-900s and two SB-600s).

And here's another one from the end of the shoot, just to embarrass CGeezer a little more. Again, that's the sun behind them. This was a bit later on, and didn't require as much power from the flashes as I dropped down to regular 1/250th sync speeds as it had gotten kind of dark.

This one was shot at 1/4000th @ f/8 with three SB-900s to the right. Time approximately 6PM.

Here's some Joe McNally did in the Dubai desert shooting into the sun using about a dozen SB-800s.

http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/2009/05/16/moving-fast/

 

[Wail]

Suvv,

Thanks for the low-tech tip, I am sure it will be useful and I'll give it a try next time I'm out shooting


Mark,

Dialing in -2/3 ? Not sure what you're getting to?

I don't know if you mean for me to adjust the flash or the shutter speed to compensate the exposure? Either way, wouldn't the strength of the flash be dependent on the ambient light, distance of flash to subject, and availability of other flash? As such, how does a -2/3 help in my situation?

If you could clarify, please, I'd appreciate that.


John,

Thank you for the elaborate reply; which raises many more questions, but for starters let me tell you that the ambient light is like nothing you'd imagine (I'm guessing you haven't been to these parts of the world, there's just far too much of it).

But in the scenario that you've demonstrated, you've decided on the 6 flash (4x SB900 and 2x SB600). How did you know what output settings to have your flash on, to get the exposure you're aiming for?

By looking at the light conditions of the photos you've posted, I'd say it would be pretty easy to read the LCD and hence see the histogram / blinkies? This isn't an option, unless the toilet tube recommended by Suvv proves otherwise.


Thank you all for the replies, but I kindly need more clarification as to how you're setting the metering / light strengths.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

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[Kerioak]

useful video but a shame the music is so loud that it tends to drown out the commentary in the first one

 

[DiddyDave]

Use a reflector instead of a zillian speedlights, for ore light, use 2

DD

 

[Kaouthia]

Thank you for the elaborate reply; which raises many more questions, but for starters let me tell you that the ambient light is like nothing you'd imagine (I'm guessing you haven't been to these parts of the world, there's just far too much of it).

I'm not sure how Florida sunshine compares to that of the Dubai desert, but I would imagine it's comparable.

Those weren't in FL, but I've done this there too.

But in the scenario that you've demonstrated, you've decided on the 6 flash (4x SB900 and 2x SB600). How did you know what output settings to have your flash on, to get the exposure you're aiming for?

I wanted a tight depth of field in this case, so I set my aperture, then adjusted my shutter speed to get the ambient where I wanted it.

Then I just set all 6 flashes at full power to see what I got, and adjusted down from there. They were triggerd using CLS at manual power settings, and I just kept knocking it down in 1 stop increments, and as I got closer to where I wanted the subject exposure to be, tweaked in 1/3rd stop increments.

But, iTTL is surprisingly good in these kinds of situations - I'd at least experiment with it and see what the camera comes up with.

By looking at the light conditions of the photos you've posted, I'd say it would be pretty easy to read the LCD and hence see the histogram / blinkies? This isn't an option, unless the toilet tube recommended by Suvv proves otherwise.

Well, the ones by the river we had direct sunlight pointing at us, so I had to cover my head and the camera with a sweater when trying to see the LCD.

You could have a look at one of the Zacuto Z-Finders if budget allows. The trick to using AutoFP high speed sync was to make the daylight look MUCH MUCH darker than it is in reality.

Thank you all for the replies, but I kindly need more clarification as to how you're setting the metering / light strengths.

Pretty much just by reading the histogram and and comparing the contrast between different areas on the LCD.

 

[Wail]

Graham / Christine,

Thank you, I've seen that video and it's very similar to what we're doing. I've been using Auto FP High Speed Sync as well.

My problem is, how do I know if I need to dial in any + or - on the flash, etc.; or it is by keeping the flash on TTL that's all taken care of for me?

As I've said, there's so much light that I can't read anything, so what I have to do is set the settings and pray (we do a lot of that here ) that it comes out well.

Again, thank you for the videos

 

[DiddyDave]

Someone else will have to give you the high tech answer however for a low tech solution :


View the LCD through a cardboard tube - the inside of a toilet roll is ideal

Sounds so stupid and works so well.

Wail - why have you dismissed this idea??? In very bright conditions I also stick my head inside my T-shirt and the camera up it - but I rather think something/anything that darkens your LCD will sort your problem of reviewing perfectly well - it doesn't require a highbrow/high tech solution to that one

As for the actual problem, you just don't have enough power with speedlights, a silver reflector will throw back a ton of light and if not enough will significantly reduce the number of speedlights you also need - worth a try? :shrug:


DD

 

[cowasaki]

What is sunlight?

Do you use a light meter? I'm new to this kind of photography too but my approach would be to meter for the fill flash again the model and go from there.

Just how bright is it? How low is it? What time of day?

I would probably have used 7 image bracketing 2/3 stop outwards from what I thought was right

 

[Mark.A]

What happens, because I can’t see the pictures (nothing can be seen on the LCD due to the excessive light from the sun), I have no clue as to how much light I’m getting from the SB900. I end up bracketing them, +1, +2, +3 … but that’s the problem, it’s all hit & miss (mostly misses).

If you buy a hoodman loupe then you will be able to see the LCD just fine.

 

[Wail]

Wonderful reply there, thank you so much

I'm not sure how Florida sunshine compares to that of the Dubai desert, but I would imagine it's comparable.


Those weren't in FL, but I've done this there too.

It really doesn't compare, simply because the light here is in excess abundance and then you also get light from the ground and rocks reflected all over the place. I think I'd compare it to being inside of a crystal bowl, it's just too much!

I wanted a tight depth of field in this case, so I set my aperture, then adjusted my shutter speed to get the ambient where I wanted it.

Then I just set all 6 flashes at full power to see what I got, and adjusted down from there.

But that's just it, once I do the settings (say from home or in the car) that's it. As soon as we step out into the sun (and this is at 4pm, not mid-day or anything stupid), we can no longer see the LCDs. It's all guess-work, and I'm not exaggerating this one bit.

We have someone standing just looking at the flash to see if they fire, if not then we have to take that flash off and have a look at it in the car to see if its' overheated. The LCD is useless with this kind of light.

.. They were triggerd using CLS at manual power settings, and I just kept knocking it down in 1 stop increments, and as I got closer to where I wanted the subject exposure to be, tweaked in 1/3rd stop increments.

As above, that's the luxury we don't have :shake:

But, iTTL is surprisingly good in these kinds of situations - I'd at least experiment with it and see what the camera comes up with.

Well, so relieved to know at least I've got something right . Thank you, this has put a smile on my sandy-face.

Well, the ones by the river we had direct sunlight pointing at us, so I had to cover my head and the camera with a sweater when trying to see the LCD.

He He He, we have our heads wrapped in head-scarfs (for protection from the sun, and to hold back the sweat ); but may be getting something to hide our heads into is a good idea ... I will have to try that.

You could have a look at one of the Zacuto Z-Finders if budget allows.

Will check it out once I'm done with the typing here; again, thank you for the link.

.. The trick to using AutoFP high speed sync was to make the daylight look MUCH MUCH darker than it is in reality.

Aha! And there in lies the issue; . So, by keeping the setting on Auto FP High Speed Sync., I adjust the shutter speed to fade-out the sun (sort of to get a sun-set / evening light effect). Does that mean, with the flash on TTL, the camera will take care of the flash strength? This is exactly what I am getting at, and where my dilemma rests.

Pretty much just by reading the histogram and and comparing the contrast between different areas on the LCD.

Remember, no histograms, no Jaffa Cakes, no Marks and Spencers; only sand, rocks, scorpions, camels, goats, and a few us Beduins


Thank you so so much for this reply.

 

[Wail]

What is sunlight?

Do you use a light meter? I'm new to this kind of photography too but my approach would be to meter for the fill flash again the model and go from there.

Just how bright is it? How low is it? What time of day?

I would probably have used 7 image bracketing 2/3 stop outwards from what I thought was right

Sunlight , it's light that's omitted from that round disc in your blue sky. Here, it's just white disc, in a white sky, shining down on to sand that's reflected back and appears pearl-white too.

Don't use a lightmeter, and am wondering of that's what I'm missing? But I want to hear about how to do it without the lightmeter, if possible, before going down that line.

Too bright, at 4:00pm. We can't come out anytime sooner, since at 4:00pm it's close to 45C .. at mid-day it would be closer to 50C. Not something we'd want to be exposed to. Coming out at first light isn't possible because of the models (that's for another thread, please :bang.

If you buy a hoodman loupe then you will be able to see the LCD just fine.

And yet another low-tech solution that may be very helpful. Thank you for that.

 

[DiddyDave]

Hmmm... only interested in one poster's comments eh

And no - dialling out the Sun by underexposing it will not mean the camera automatically compensates

Time to say then

DD

 

[Wail]

Use a reflector instead of a zillian speedlights, for ore light, use 2

DD

I have to offer you an apology, for some reason I didn't see your replies :shrug:; sorry.

The reflector route would be great, but we have the models in positions that would be hard for us to use a reflector (one example, she's in a creavasse in a rock that's been eroded by time. To get the whole picture, she's got to be on her own and I've got to be a bit far away .. other examples are with the model and landscape both showing and for this I need to be relatively distant from the model and only the landscape in view).

Wail - why have you dismissed this idea??? In very bright conditions I also stick my head inside my T-shirt and the camera up it - but I rather think something/anything that darkens your LCD will sort your problem of reviewing perfectly well - it doesn't require a highbrow/high tech solution to that one

As for the actual problem, you just don't have enough power with speedlights, a silver reflector will throw back a ton of light and if not enough will significantly reduce the number of speedlights you also need - worth a try? :shrug:


DD

I didn't dismiss the idea of the toilet-paper tube at all. My next shoot is Friday and I will plan to try this out.

I've found the 3 Speedlights to be ample enough for what we're doing. As a matter of fact, there are instances when we're getting too much light from them :shrug:, and I never thought that to be possible.

I think the reflector would work great if we're doing partial-body shots or head shots only; but for full bodies, it's just not possible .. unless I'm missing something.



Again, thank you all, for the wonderful replies, and please bear with me as I am new to flash

 

[Wail]

Hmmm... only interested in one poster's comments eh

And no - dialling out the Sun by underexposing it will not mean the camera automatically compensates

Time to say then

DD

I think that's pretty unfair given that I've replied to all who've offered any feedback here, and counter-asked more questions depending on what they've suggested.

With the toilet-paper tube, which you've thought I'd dismissed; nothing that I've said suggests that I've dismissed that idea.

I am trying to ascertain how to meter this rightly, and if I'm going down the right path. The t-shirt solution (from you), toilet roll solution, and Hoodman too were never dismissed or ignored :shrug:

I value your feedback pretty much, and with great respect. Please don't be judgemental too fast.

Again, thank you for your kind replies

 

[DiddyDave]

I have to offer you an apology, for some reason I didn't see your replies :shrug:; sorry.

The reflector route would be great, but we have the models in positions that would be hard for us to use a reflector (one example, she's in a creavasse in a rock that's been eroded by time. To get the whole picture, she's got to be on her own and I've got to be a bit far away .. other examples are with the model and landscape both showing and for this I need to be relatively distant from the model and only the landscape in view).





I didn't dismiss the idea of the toilet-paper tube at all. My next shoot is Friday and I will plan to try this out.

I've found the 3 Speedlights to be ample enough for what we're doing. As a matter of fact, there are instances when we're getting too much light from them :shrug:, and I never thought that to be possible.

I think the reflector would work great if we're doing partial-body shots or head shots only; but for full bodies, it's just not possible .. unless I'm missing something.



Again, thank you all, for the wonderful replies, and please bear with me as I am new to flash

Ok - forgiven then

(goes to file strop away)

Now I can see your problem better, and just FYI a big reflector does indeed work for full length, but you need a heavy assistant on windy days

Dialling in -2 stops on your camera to underexpose the Sun, also dials in -2 stops on your flash; and dialling in +2 on your flashes isn't enough either, it doesn't work that simply, as Mr McNally attests too, so you need to dial in more. In most cases I find iTTL disappointing and use manual instead

DD

 

[DiddyDave]

I think that's pretty unfair given that I've replied to all who've offered any feedback here, and counter-asked more questions depending on what they've suggested.

With the toilet-paper tube, which you've thought I'd dismissed; nothing that I've said suggests that I've dismissed that idea.

I am trying to ascertain how to meter this rightly, and if I'm going down the right path. The t-shirt solution (from you), toilet roll solution, and Hoodman too were never dismissed or ignored :shrug:

I value your feedback pretty much, and with great respect. Please don't be judgemental too fast.

Again, thank you for your kind replies

See opening line of last post

DD

 

[Wail]

Ok - forgiven then

(goes to file strop away)

Now I can see your problem better, and just FYI a big reflector does indeed work for full length, but you need a heavy assistant on windy days

Dialling in -2 stops on your camera to underexpose the Sun, also dials in -2 stops on your flash; and dialling in +2 on your flashes isn't enough either, it doesn't work that simply, as Mr McNally attests too, so you need to dial in more. In most cases I find iTTL disappointing and use manual instead

DD

If I recall correctly, in th McNally YouTube, they couldn't use a normal reflector because of the wind; it does get too windy out there and would be impossible to hold in place.

However, on the next shoot, I will endeavour to give this a go .. if only for face and partial-body shoots. I don't have any of them super-large reflectors right now.

When I first started with flash, tried TTL (as many were cheering for this) but found that I didn't like the results and control at all; I was far happier with the Manual control, I got exactly what I wanted, where I wanted and how I wanted.

I think the toilet roll / Hoodman will come in very handy.

See opening line of last post

DD

Thank you

 

[Wail]

Running off to camera store to see if I can find super-large reflector with heavy bouncers / body-builder at a decent price

 

[DiddyDave]

Running off to camera store to see if I can find super-large reflector with heavy bouncers / body-builder at a decent price

You just need a couple or more fat lasses for this - tell them to wear their most sparkly outfits for a model shoot and you're sorted

I found the disappointment with iTTL (even Nikon's amazing variant) to be when I moved position and the background luminance changed, then I was constantly having to dial in/out more compensation when on manual nothing needed changing

Now all my connected directly to camera flash is still iTTL but all my OCF is manual

Works for me

DD

 

[Kaouthia]

Wonderful reply there, thank you so much

No problem.

It really doesn't compare, simply because the light here is in excess abundance and then you also get light from the ground and rocks reflected all over the place. I think I'd compare it to being inside of a crystal bowl, it's just too much!

I'm *really* hoping I can make it to Gulf Photo Plus next year and see for myself.

But that's just it, once I do the settings (say from home or in the car) that's it. As soon as we step out into the sun (and this is at 4pm, not mid-day or anything stupid), we can no longer see the LCDs. It's all guess-work, and I'm not exaggerating this one bit.

As has been suggested, all I can do is again recommend some kind of cover that can go over you and the camera to more easily be able to see the back of your camera.

BUT, if you know in advance what settings you're going to need to account for the ambient (as you suggest by setting things up at home or in the car), then that takes a huge chunk out of the equation.

Well, so relieved to know at least I've got something right . Thank you, this has put a smile on my sandy-face.

If you're using manual camera settings to get the ambient you want, you don't need to worry about dialing -EV into the camera and then +EV into the flashes to try and compensate. If your camera's set to no exposure compensation and you dial in manually, the flashes should do what they need to do to adequately expose the subject.

He He He, we have our heads wrapped in head-scarfs (for protection from the sun, and to hold back the sweat ); but may be getting something to hide our heads into is a good idea ... I will have to try that.

I usually take a couple of sweatshirts or dark pieces of cloth with me so I can cover up if need be to help with the vision.

Aha! And there in lies the issue; . So, by keeping the setting on Auto FP High Speed Sync., I adjust the shutter speed to fade-out the sun (sort of to get a sun-set / evening light effect). Does that mean, with the flash on TTL, the camera will take care of the flash strength? This is exactly what I am getting at, and where my dilemma rests.

Yes, basically (to the limits of the power your flashes can output - which will of course depend on the distance to the subject and any modifiers you might be using).

When I do it, I meter off the sky (as it's the brightest thing in the scene) just using the camera's metering system, no fancy light meters or anything, so that I can get it under control and bring it down into a range I'm happy with, and I then enter those settings in manual mode into the camera.

If that means I have to shoot 1/8000th at f/16, then so be it.

Then I just use flash power to bring up a fairly substantial amount of light back onto the subject. The principles for doing this in Lancaster, Florida or the Saudi desert don't really change, just your shutter speed, aperture, and amount of flash power required.

Up to 1/250th, the general rule is that you use your shutter speed to control the ambient, and your aperture to control the flash power output. Beyond 1/250th into high speed sync mode, both will have a severe impact on your flash. You could lose as much as 2 stops of light from your flash output shooting at 1/8000 just because of the way high speed sync works (which is why you might end up needing 4 or 8 lights or more).

As mentioned above, if my camera is set to not have any exposure compensation, and I'm dialing in the settings manually, TTL flash should work fine in this instance (although, chances are in the circumstances you describe, you might just be pumping out at full power anyway depending on how many speedlights you use).

Remember, no histograms, no Jaffa Cakes, no Marks and Spencers; only sand, rocks, scorpions, camels, goats, and a few us Beduins

lol

Thank you so so much for this reply.

No problem, good luck with it, and keep me posted. Perhaps next year if I can make it to GPP you and I might have a chance to get together and experiment.

 

[Kaouthia]

I found the disappointment with iTTL (even Nikon's amazing variant)...

There's variants of iTTL?

...to be when I moved position and the background luminance changed, then I was constantly having to dial in/out more compensation when on manual nothing needed changing

That's why I shoot my camera manual if I need to use iTTL (whether on camera or off). If my exposure compensation is set to 0EV for the flashes, then they'll expose as they should. I can see through my viewfinder what the camera's TTL meter says it should be, and I can adjust accordingly.

 

[HoppyUK]

Someone else will have to give you the high tech answer however for a low tech solution :


View the LCD through a cardboard tube - the inside of a toilet roll is ideal

Sounds so stupid and works so well.

This works A kitchen roll tube is longer

Use a reflector instead of a zillian speedlights, for ore light, use 2

Reflectors are very good and often overlooked. They're kind of self adjusting in that it can never be brighter than the sun and you can see it working and adjust to taste.

DD

If you buy a hoodman loupe then you will be able to see the LCD just fine.

These things are good

You just need a couple or more fat lasses for this - tell them to wear their most sparkly outfits for a model shoot and you're sorted

I found the disappointment with iTTL (even Nikon's amazing variant) to be when I moved position and the background luminance changed, then I was constantly having to dial in/out more compensation when on manual nothing needed changing

Now all my connected directly to camera flash is still iTTL but all my OCF is manual

Works for me

DD

I've also found that E-TTL flash can be a bit of a moveable feast in difficult light (particularly with sun in picture or close to it) when small framing changes appear to make big and unpredictable differences to the exposure and the flash ratio.

It can be frustrating chasing it around with the +/- compensation so like DD when the situation is fairly fixed (especially in relation to flash distance) the extra time taken to set up the flash power manually means that you get much better consistency. Basically once you've set it up with the toilet roll or whatever, you can be pretty sure it will stay that way.

 

[Wail]

Lots of great replies, I can’t thank you lot enough

So far I have this ….

1. Use toilet role, or Hoodman (will see about ordering one), to aid in seeing the screen; this comes recommended. Also to use some form of T-shirt if possible

2. Try with reflectors, alleviates the need for many Speedlight. Unfortunately, no one here in Saudi sells large reflectors; but I have 3 sizeable ones that I think out to be large enough. Will need to source 3 sizeable dudes to hold them

3. Keep camera on manual, expose for the sky, no exposure compensation

4. Keep flash on manual too ; shoot, chimp and adjust flash power output until I am happy with result

5. Holding off getting lightmeter, not too keen on spending more money. As it is, this has gone way Way WAY over budget


Basically, I see my main faults were: -

1. Thinking there is some high-tech / technical means to get the metering, other than what I was doing (the toilet roll, I will test it out tomorrow)

2. I went against my gut feeling, of keeping the flash on manual, and used TTL. I was too scared of messing up the shoot, it has cost me a lot to get the situation set-up as I wanted and I thought why gamble with manual


Again, you’ve all been very helpful, as always; and I apologise again DiddyDave

 

[Wail]

Oh yes, with regards to the Z-Finder Pro 3x, I think I will skip that, based on the price; but thank you for the link and for suggesting it. I think the Hoodman may be something worth going with, after the toilet roll. Should both fail, I'll come back with more annoying questions

 

[Kaouthia]

2. Try with reflectors, alleviates the need for many Speedlight. Unfortunately, no one here in Saudi sells large reflectors; but I have 3 sizeable ones that I think out to be large enough. Will need to source 3 sizeable dudes to hold them

If you're shooting fast enough to completely crush the sky itself, is a reflector going to bounce enough light back at your subject?

 

[Wail]

Having experience on this matter helps a lot, doesn't it

Thank you, that's a valid point you raise.

 

[Kaouthia]

Well, I wouldn't completely discount reflectors, BUT, you might need 3 or 4 of them bouncing light back to the same point to bring up the light to an acceptable level, in an arc shape to sort of "focus" the bounced light.

 

[singlespeed]

It’s impractical for me to run to a shaded area to try and see what the exposure was like after every shot, just not doable; basically, I am shooting blind :shrug:

I’ve thought of using a lightmeter, but that’s another expense and I’d rather see if may be there’s something I’m doing wrong, or missing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Take the shade with you. Would a couple of layers of black cloth thrown over your head and camera should give enough shade for a second or two whilst chimping the histogram. Or the silver/black material used on some umbrellas with removable covers.


Not realy on topic as such, but a thought just occured I guess your using the high speed sync function, due to the high ambient. Isn't the flash having to work particularly hard as much of it's light output is wasted on closed shutter curtains. Would it be beneficial to use an ND filter on the lens and get the shutter speed to 1/250 for the ambient exposure, getting away from the Hi-speed sync. Obviously the flash output will have to get through the ND filter as well, but will operating in normal mode outweigh the wasted energy in HS sync mode? If it does, the flash wouldn't be working as hard, and therefore less prone to overheating Bring on the experts to shoot me down :bonk:

 

[DiddyDave]

If you're shooting fast enough to completely crush the sky itself, is a reflector going to bounce enough light back at your subject?

I didn't at first realise he wanted to underexpose the Sun as he'd asked about fill-flash; whereas underexposing the Sun and then correctly exposing the subject isn't fill really is it - the flash is becoming the Key Light rather than simply fill

Anyway, to balance the light reflectors can often do a fab job, in this situation they can reduce the number of speedlights needed

McNally's use of 12-ish for that shot earlier is NEVER going to happen in the real world as anyone needing that much power would buy much more powerful lights rather than a dozen speedlights, triggers & stands - and even a studio light or two and battery pack would be cheaper than having so many speedlights

All I'm saying is, don't discount the low-tech & cheaper option where it can either replace the need for speedlights (simply for fill) or help reduce their number as here


DD

 

[treeman]

Suvv,


Mark,

Dialing in -2/3 ? Not sure what you're getting to?

I don't know if you mean for me to adjust the flash or the shutter speed to compensate the exposure? Either way, wouldn't the strength of the flash be dependent on the ambient light, distance of flash to subject, and availability of other flash? As such, how does a -2/3 help in my situation?

If you could clarify, please, I'd appreciate that.

Sorry, I may have mis-understod your question. I thought you were using TTL and it was over exposing, so if you just set the +/- dial to -2/3, it would help

 

[Wail]

<snip>


Not realy on topic as such, but a thought just occured I guess your using the high speed sync function, due to the high ambient. Isn't the flash having to work particularly hard as much of it's light output is wasted on closed shutter curtains. Would it be beneficial to use an ND filter on the lens and get the shutter speed to 1/250 for the ambient exposure, getting away from the Hi-speed sync. Obviously the flash output will have to get through the ND filter as well, but will operating in normal mode outweigh the wasted energy in HS sync mode? If it does, the flash wouldn't be working as hard, and therefore less prone to overheating Bring on the experts to shoot me down :bonk:

When I expose for the sky, I'm on ISO 200, f/11 and using a 3stop ND gets me a shutter speed of 1/4000. I'd much rather not go above f/11; but you see here part of the problem.

If I go up to f/16, I can get a shutter speed of 1/2000; remove the ND and I'm in deep trouble.

There is practically no way, before late afternoon and / or sunset, that I can get the shutter speeds down to 1/250 unless I was using serious ND filters.

This is why we shoot very latish in the afternoon; this doesn't allow us for much time to shoot. We get to the location by 5pm and sunset is at 7:10. We have to stop shooting and pack-up at least 15 minutes before sunset, otherwise it gets too dark pretty quick out there.

In all, we have a window of shooting that's about 2 hours.

Going back to the ND option, my current strategy is to reduce the number of variables (light controllers) to a minimum. This way I can learn and correct myself with far more accuracy, the lesser the variables, the lesser items needs to be adjusted / toyed with.

Once I've mastered this, and I hope to do that by this coming weekend, then I will try and go from early-afternoon and get more shooting hours. That's when the ND will be a necessity, and when I can take the risk of adding another variable to the lights entering my camera.

I didn't at first realise he wanted to underexpose the Sun as he'd asked about fill-flash; whereas underexposing the Sun and then correctly exposing the subject isn't fill really is it - the flash is becoming the Key Light rather than simply fill

DD

Yes, you're right, I had never explained that one of the things I was hoping to do was to underexpose the sun. Frankly, the problem I'm having is on many levels and wanted to focus this thread primarily on just fill-light. Once that was sorted I was hoping to move onto the next question.

But when the matter popped-up, it was like getting to that "itch you can't scratch"; it sort of hit two birds with one stone.

Not that I don't want to shoot with the sun in full brightness, but I also want to washout the sun to get more working time and dramatic effect

Anyway, to balance the light reflectors can often do a fab job, in this situation they can reduce the number of speedlights needed

DD

And this is something I will have to use, I can't afford to go and buy myself 8 SB900, stands, batteries, etc. That would be way too much waste. Especially as I'm not too sure for how long I plan to shoot this style, and whether I'll ever come back to needing these many Speedlights.

McNally's use of 12-ish for that shot earlier is NEVER going to happen in the real world as anyone needing that much power would buy much more powerful lights rather than a dozen speedlights, triggers & stands - and even a studio light or two and battery pack would be cheaper than having so many speedlights

DD

Absolutely . When researching what type of lights to buy, my initial thoughts were to get proper studio lights, but I subsequently discounted that idea for the more portable and easier to set-up SB900. After doing that decision, I realised that I'd need more than 1 SB900

I don't want to continue using SB900 for outdoors like this, I also don't want too much studio kit, as I'm primarily into Nature and Landscape.

Of the three options (Speedlights, Powerful studio lights with battery packs, or low-tech reflectors), I'd much rather go the low-tech route.

All I'm saying is, don't discount the low-tech & cheaper option where it can either replace the need for speedlights (simply for fill) or help reduce their number as here


DD

Not at all, and it's the top of my option list of routes to follow.

Since deciding to venture into Glamour and Portrait I've spent close to £2000, if not more, on gear; this is way over the budget I had envisaged, and above what I'd wanted to do.

 

[Kaouthia]

McNally's use of 12-ish for that shot earlier is NEVER going to happen in the real world as anyone needing that much power would buy much more powerful lights rather than a dozen speedlights, triggers & stands - and even a studio light or two and battery pack would be cheaper than having so many speedlights

Actually, there are instances where it is. I've yet to find studio lights that'll reliably work at 1/4000.

Of course, the other option, of course, is to put several ND filters over your lens until you can wrangle the sun under control at 1/250th. Then you'd be ok with portable studio strobes, but of course you risk degrading your image too much by having an extra filter or two in front of your lens (it would also make it harder to focus).

Edit : Just read above he's already using a 3 stop ND to get 1/4000, so he'd be looking at a total of 7 stops to be able to get 1/250th. Ouch! That's a lot of ND for even studio lights to try to get around. That'd be the equivalent light level to shooting at an aperture of f/88.

Edit 2 : Ooops, maths, 3+4 == 7, not 8.

 

[Wail]

Love the f/88!

I was sort of hoping I'd be able to shoot the models at f/2, or thereabouts, as I love the shallow depth of field; impossible, no way I'd get the shutterspeed I'd want and the use of ND filters adds horrible colour casts.

Right now, let me just try to keep my head afloat with the SB900s; going to pick-up a two more I guess :shrug:

 

[thompo]

.............
2. Try with reflectors, alleviates the need for many Speedlight. Unfortunately, no one here in Saudi sells large reflectors; but I have 3 sizeable ones that I think out to be large enough. Will need to source 3 sizeable dudes to hold them .........

This might be worth a shot on the cheap, go to a Car/Auto store, buy a few windscreen/dash reflectors, (to stop the dash from melting in hot countries and keep the car cooler) join together with a couple of bits or wood/brush shaft, job done for a fraction of the price of photographic reflector.

 

[evilonion]

does it have to be sb900's?
if your on a budget can you not get a bank of cheap chinese flashguns?
Then upgrade your kit as you go along...?

 

[Kaouthia]

does it have to be sb900's?
if your on a budget can you not get a bank of cheap chinese flashguns?
Then upgrade your kit as you go along...?

They don't support high speed sync.