How to meter at zoom Distances without on board meter ?

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This is a theoretical question which just cropped up in my head, If I were to take a photo at distance how would I choose exposure whilst using a camera with no on board meter ? I'm guessing sunny 16 on general light conditions ? I have a few vintage light meters but of course they would only give me the same results as my last idea ! Is there a trick ?
 
Use common sense. Meter the subject from where you are using the old meters you have. OK, that might include much that is not in your image. If the parts not in you image are less bright, up your exposure one stop. If the parts not in your image are brighter, drop your exposure one stop.
 
The light falling on the subject is the same whether shooting at 18mm or 200mm.
 
The light falling on the subject is the same whether shooting at 18mm or 200mm.
But if you meter with a handheld meter rather than TTL, you might include cloudy areas and bright sunny areas in your metering while actually photographing only one of those.
 
But if you meter with a handheld meter rather than TTL, you might include cloudy areas and bright sunny areas in your metering while actually photographing only one of those.
If you meter with a handheld meter, you’re generally taking an incident reading.
 
How can you take an incident reading of a distant subject?
WTF?

Photographers have been doing this for over a hundred years.

If you’re not confident that your subject is in the same light as you, you meter where the subject is.

It’s fairly obvious.
 
But if you meter with a handheld meter rather than TTL, you might include cloudy areas and bright sunny areas in your metering while actually photographing only one of those.
I need to ask; have you ever used a handheld meter? Or are you assuming something incorrectly.
 
If you are good at judging "middle grey" from a color scene, ok. Or if you average a bunch of readings, ok. Or if you are good at offsetting a spot reading (i.e. white), ok. But an incident reading is generally easier/better.

Edit: a spot reading with a handheld meter is generally a lot smaller/pickier than the spot metering of a camera.
 
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Distant mountain lit by sun, you lit by sun... incident reading of the sun is the same.
Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in sun, me on top of next wold in shade, incident reading is nothing like.

Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in shade, me on top of next wold in sun, incident reading is nothing like.

If the whole world is uniformly lit, metering the photographer is clearly fine. In the real world things like trees, buildings, clouds happen.
 
Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in sun, me on top of next wold in shade, incident reading is nothing like.

Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in shade, me on top of next wold in sun, incident reading is nothing like.

If the whole world is uniformly lit, metering the photographer is clearly fine. In the real world things like trees, buildings, clouds happen.
Sure, if you are in different light it's a problem... chances of the mountain being in shade while I'm in sun are slim. Chances of me being in shade and the mountain in sun, much higher. But I can just walk out from under the shade and take the reading.
 
Spot metering is one of the most difficult skills to obtain. Unless you have a known 18% tone to measure, you have to measure something else and ‘guess’ how far out from average it is.

I’ve been doing this 30+ years, I can tell you what ‘average’ looks like, but show me something bright or dark and I’ve no idea how many stops away from average they are.

The OP is clearly not very experienced, spot metering is hardly likely to be the best answer.
 
So you do understand that an incident reading isn’t ‘viewing a scene’, so I’m puzzled by your answers.
Yes, I fully understand. With incident metering you measure the light falling on the subject. If the subject is distant, you cannot rely on the light being the same. With subjects a bit smaller than a mountain and a mile or so away, the light can be very different.
 
Yes, I fully understand. With incident metering you measure the light falling on the subject. If the subject is distant, you cannot rely on the light being the same. With subjects a bit smaller than a mountain and a mile or so away, the light can be very different.
I have no idea what you think you’re posting.

But a correct exposure is always going to be based on the light falling on the subject.

The fact you’re trying to dream up scenarios that make that difficult just makes you look like a pedant. It does nothing to change the facts, just makes you look odd.
 
Yes, I fully understand. With incident metering you measure the light falling on the subject. If the subject is distant, you cannot rely on the light being the same. With subjects a bit smaller than a mountain and a mile or so away, the light can be very different.
Other than you being in shade and the distant location being in sun, the light can't be very different.
An incident reading is of the light, not of the scene/subject... something that is dark (shaded) in the distant scene will be dark, and something that is blown white (specular) will be white. You still have to apply the same offsets required with any meter reading, TTL or otherwise.
 
This is all getting a little theoretical

Get a decent spot meter point it around your scene get an idea of what the light level is decide how bright your subject will be relative to the brightest and darker areas of the scene. Set your aperture for the appropriate dof and read the appropriate shutter from the meter. Latitude will get you a long way and practice will get you the rest of the way
 
Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in sun, me on top of next wold in shade, incident reading is nothing like.

Church nestling in a Lincolnshire wold in shade, me on top of next wold in sun, incident reading is nothing like.

If the whole world is uniformly lit, metering the photographer is clearly fine. In the real world things like trees, buildings, clouds happen.

You are clearly inexperienced in the use of an incident light meter. If you were, you would know to take sun lit and shadow readings from time to time when you are shooting.so that you know how to deal with these situations. Sunlight takes several hours to change significantly except at sunrise and sunset. An incident meter pegs the exposure for the highlight all the other tones fall into place. The situations you describe are easy to deal with accurately.
 
So as I gather take a general reading/estimated guess then adjust my settings to suit the subject I'm looking at through the lens whether it be darker or lighter than the general outlook.
 
So as I gather take a general reading/estimated guess then adjust my settings to suit the subject I'm looking at through the lens whether it be darker or lighter than the general outlook.

You could do that, but if you want an accurate reading, and take an incident reading in the same light as the subject, or from an 18% grey card or from the palm of your hand.
They will all give an acurate reading within half a stop of each other. No guessing needed.
The idea that you need to take a reading from the subject is totally wrong.
 
The idea that you need to take a reading from the subject is totally wrong.

This^
Surely based on the idea that TTL metering is ‘right’. The opposite is the truth, TTL is only ‘convenient’ and in its original form was rarely accurate, through many iterations it became more accurate, but by the time it worked accurately it relies on a computer assessment of the scene it’s viewing.

Whereas an incident reading is always accurate, we’re not interested in how bright the subject is, we’re only interested in the light falling on it.
 
Whatever happened to the idea that we should meter for the shadows (for negative film)?

I guess that's nothing to do with the argument above, though...
 
Distant mountain lit by sun, you lit by sun... incident reading of the sun is the same.
I'm intrigued by this thread! Living in the west of Scotland, and recently on the Isle of Skye, I can guess that the chances of a distant mountain being lit by sun at the same time as I am being lit by sun is probably an awful lot less than 50:50 - never mind the difference in sunlight intensity due to variable cloud cover. Moving isn't likely to help much - the mountains themselves tend to produce cloud, due to saturated air masses being lifted further above sea level, and condensing to produce cloud, drizzle or rain. Or anything inbetween. Depending upon which side of the hills you are, it's fairly common to be standing in bright sunshine looking at a hazy midground and a background which is very dark & cloudy, but with very bright patches of sky. I'm not sure how an incident light reading is going to help me much here, but please do correct me if I'm wrong (I'm definitely no expert!).
From my limited grasp of what I (and I guess the OP) are wanting to measure here, I would have thought that it was the amount of light actually reflected from a distant subject that was the important thing???
I'm still working my way into this - my approach at present is centre-weighted or spot metering coupled with bracketing, with variable but increasingly useable results. (Just as well for my bank balance that I left film behind many years ago!)
 
You could do that, but if you want an accurate reading, and take an incident reading in the same light as the subject, or from an 18% grey card or from the palm of your hand.

The idea that you need to take a reading from the subject is totally wrong.

How do you take an incident light meter reading from an 18% grey card or the palm of your hand? Surely you mean a reflective light reading from the grey card/palm of hand? Incident only measures light falling on the subject; the same light is 'falling' on something black in the scene as something white but the amount of light reflected is completely different, hence the need to take a reflected meter reading from grey card to keep the whites white and the blacks black. (taking a meter reading 'from' a subject will always be reflected by definition.)

To 'criticise' someone as inexperienced in the use of an incident light meter and then to mention an 18% grey card in similar sentences seems a bit ironic - the whole advantage of an incident meter is to negate the need for a grey card - they are only required for reflected meter readings.

I personally can see many situations where the light falling on the photographer is completely different to the light falling on the subject; I don't think John was being pedantic at all.

This may be of some use from Sekonic:

https://www.sekonic.com/united-states/classroom/meteringtechniques/benefitsofincident.aspx
 
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Whatever happened to the idea that we should meter for the shadows (for negative film)?

I guess that's nothing to do with the argument above, though...

Exactly. TBH if you are using film stock like portra you might as well use sunny f8 two stops over exposed will make precisely zero difference to the final output
 
This is a theoretical question which just cropped up in my head, If I were to take a photo at distance how would I choose exposure whilst using a camera with no on board meter ? I'm guessing sunny 16 on general light conditions ? I have a few vintage light meters but of course they would only give me the same results as my last idea ! Is there a trick ?

I recommend to read and use the following:

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

http://expomat.tripod.com

Nothing can replace common sense, but the exposure mat helps a lot. :D
 
Putting aside the argument about which method to use when metering the OP should take into consideration the aperture of the zoom he plans to use. Many non professional zooms have a variable aperture across the zoom range when used wide open. So a 28-80mm zoom could be wide open at f3.5 at 28mm but when zoomed to 80mm the aperture could be f5.6 (assuming the usual aperture range for a standard non pro zoom lens). If the OP intends to shoot wide open he would need to read the specifications/ instructions for the lens to find out what the max aperture is at the marked focal lengths.
 
We’ve not had a thread like this in f&c for many a moon.

Roberts, please bring me a large brandy.
 
We’ve not had a thread like this in f&c for many a moon.

Roberts, please bring me a large brandy.
Perhaps you could ask Roberts to run along to the distant subject you wish to take a photograph of, instruct him to take an incident light meter reading and communicate the information to you via one of those two-way wireless radio sets. Quickly adjust the controls of your camera accordingly, check with Roberts that nothing has changed, then instruct Roberts to hide himself smartly immediately prior to pressing the shutter release button. There we are, problem solved and, as usual, it was nothing that the sensible employment of a good servant couldn't resolve. :)
 
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h'mm incident light reading? you are under cover in pouring rain but your subject is in bright sunshine (as some one said similar i.e. you could be on a hill and a beautiful lake and valley in the distance is lit up by a large shaft of sunshine)....well surely for a winning shot it's worth bracketing after getting an approximate reading from your camera or separate exposure meter of the subject.....anyway that's what I would do (y)
 
h'mm incident light reading? you are under cover in pouring rain but your subject is in bright sunshine (as some one said similar i.e. you could be on a hill and a beautiful lake and valley in the distance is lit up by a large shaft of sunshine)....well surely for a winning shot it's worth bracketing after getting an approximate reading from your camera or separate exposure meter of the subject.....anyway that's what I would do (y)
Bracketing! Are you mad Brian that’s opening a whole new kettle of worms.
 
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