Hybrid cars??????????

[Cockney]

Unless your priority is to avert climate change, while mining is environmentally damaging in other ways. EV's produce massively less greenhouse gases throughout their lifetime, even factoring in production and them being powered by a fossil fuel powered power station.

I can see an argument for ev, even with the manufacturing and recycling concerns.
Hybrids, I still don't see the argument.

 

[Cockney]

Modern cars now have GPF's and DPF's after the catalytic converters that will help filter out most emissions, they don't have to warm up. Plus catalytic converters take very little time to heat up. Exhaust gasses don't get hotter as an engine warms up, they only get hotter as you increase engine speed and load.
Catalytic converters work from 150°C exhaust gases on start up/ idle are around 450°C. The brick in the cat will heat up straight away, even the exhaust gases after the catalytic converter are still above the 150°C. It will only be oider cars with less efficient catalytic converters that are underneath the car and further away from the engine, that will take longer to warm up.

Like I said.

 

[wyx087]

Computer systems are vulnerable to cabling/interface issues that require physical intervention. Computers can suffer from environmental issues, memory faults & they break from time to time too. I seem to recall Tesla having issues with eMMC NAND flash memory devices recently?

Exactly, not always fixable. That’s why I said “May”

But you can be damn sure all tech company will try their damn hardest to fix the problem with *ware updated.

In my work, if a problem is discovered, the first cause of action is see if software can be changed to get around it. Then firmware gets looked at. A hardware re-spin is to be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

The Tesla issue is said to be excessive logging. If that is the case, it’s a very easy fix. Although at cost of possibly opening up to morons thinking accelerate pedal is brake.

 

[nilagin]

Wh

What is included in the estate?
I thought you owned the premises? Much more expensive than what?
I have no idea what your post means.

It was a reply to even office space that is owned as opposed to rented, is horrendously expensive and then a list of all the things that would make it horrendously expensive. I pointed out that as all those things , security, heating etc. are shared with all the other facilities on the estate, the cost of office space won't be horrendous. Heating and electricity can be switched on and off for different buildings and zones. The same security covers the whole estate as does Health and Safety. So none of that will add to the cost.

 

[Cockney]

It was a reply to even office space that is owned as opposed to rented, is horrendously expensive and then a list of all the things that would make it horrendously expensive. I pointed out that as all those things , security, heating etc. are shared with all the other facilities on the estate, the cost of office space won't be horrendous. Heating and electricity can be switched on and off for different buildings and zones. The same security covers the whole estate as does Health and Safety. So none of that will add to the cost.

Oh dear. Never mind.

 

[nilagin]

Unless your priority is to avert climate change, while mining is environmentally damaging in other ways. EV's produce massively less greenhouse gases throughout their lifetime, even factoring in production and them being powered by a fossil fuel powered power station.

But we already have climate change, EV's would only stop it from getting worse, it won't make it revert back again.

 

[nilagin]

Like I said.

Now you are making no sense.
You said catalytic converters don't work efficiently until warmed up.
I have pointed out that the exhaust gas that hits the brick is 3 times its operational temperature, it is working straight away.

 

[wyx087]

But we already have climate change, EV's would only stop it from getting worse, it won't make it revert back again.

So being “carbon zero” by consuming loads of energy to capture CO2 to generate the special fuel. Then release the CO2 back into the air can revert back climate change?

The first part can revert it back, the second part will undo everything. As I said, only sensible place for those captured CO2 is back into the ground. Anything else (eg, temporary storing as fuel) won’t do anything measurable long term.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

But we already have climate change, EV's would only stop it from getting worse, it won't make it revert back again.

Correct.

Stopping it from getting worse is a good thing.

 

[nilagin]

So being “carbon zero” by consuming loads of energy to capture CO2 to generate the special fuel. Then release the CO2 back into the air can revert back climate change?

The first part can revert it back, the second part will undo everything. As I said, only sensible place for those captured CO2 is back into the ground. Anything else (eg, temporary storing as fuel) won’t do anything measurable long term.

If the energy used is green energy, just like that to generate electricity to charge EV's what does it matter?
As the fuel can also be used for planes and boats as well, there would be a much higher demand for the fuel, so more of it will be stored so that it is ready to supply. Whilst it is being made into fuel or stored as fuel, it is removed from the atmosphere and climate change can start to heal itself.
Who is going to pay to convert it into anything just so that it can be buried in the ground? That just isn't viable. Much better to just ell it as something that can be used it and at the very least be carbon neutral. Then there won't be time money and further energy wasted burying it.

 

[nilagin]

Correct.

Stopping it from getting worse is a good thing.

Getting it to start changing back again is even better.

 

[wyx087]

If the energy used is green energy, just like that to generate electricity to charge EV's what does it matter?
As the fuel can also be used for planes and boats as well, there would be a much higher demand for the fuel, so more of it will be stored so that it is ready to supply. Whilst it is being made into fuel or stored as fuel, it is removed from the atmosphere and climate change can start to heal itself.
Who is going to pay to convert it into anything just so that it can be buried in the ground? That just isn't viable. Much better to just ell it as something that can be used it and at the very least be carbon neutral. Then there won't be time money and further energy wasted burying it.

It matters because no energy is free of consequences. Even renewable have a CO2 cost per kWh as the equipment has a limited life. This is why efficiency is key.

I'm not going to bother reply the rest........

 

[Cockney]

Now you are making no sense.
You said catalytic converters don't work efficiently until warmed up.
I have pointed out that the exhaust gas that hits the brick is 3 times its operational temperature, it is working straight away.

Except in older vehicles. I cant be bothered finding your post to quote yourself.

 

[nilagin]

It matters because no energy is free of consequences. Even renewable have a CO2 cost per kWh as the equipment has a limited life. This is why efficiency is key.

I'm not going to bother reply the rest........

In other words you're bailing out because you don't have an answer.
Some of the profits the company makes can be used for burying some of the excess CO2. That way climate change can in fact be changed back.
As I keep pointing out it's a win win. EV's will only prevent climate change from getting worse, it will keep it at it's current state and do nothing to repair it.

 

[nilagin]

Except in older vehicles. I cant be bothered finding your post to quote yourself.

Yes older vehicles meaning 20 or so years old. Catalytic converters became mandatory 27yrs ago, alot of progress has been made in catalytic converters and lambda sensors since then.

 

[Cockney]

Yes older vehicles meaning 20 or so years old. Catalytic converters became mandatory 27yrs ago, alot of progress has been made in catalytic converters and lambda sensors since then.

You're just going round in circles now, enjoy your spin.

 

[nilagin]

You're just going round in circles now, enjoy your spin.

I'm not the one going round in circles. The question was asked why all fossil fueled cars stink on a cold morning. I answered the question, they don't, modern cars don't stink at all unless there is a fault with the engine or the emissions system. As older vehicles don't have as effective emissions systems, they are likely to but not guaranteed to smell.

 

[wyx087]

In other words you're bailing out because you don't have an answer.
Some of the profits the company makes can be used for burying some of the excess CO2. That way climate change can in fact be changed back.
As I keep pointing out it's a win win. EV's will only prevent climate change from getting worse, it will keep it at it's current state and do nothing to repair it.

No. I'm bailing out because I see no point in continuing this conversation. You are living in fantasy land with those claims.

Good night sir.

 

[nilagin]

No. I'm bailing out because I see no point in continuing this conversation. You are living in fantasy land with those claims.

Good night sir.

It's simple logic. Try applying it.

 

[Cockney]

It's simple logic. Try applying it.

me too.

 

[wyx087]

It's simple logic. Try applying it.

Only if you ignore conservation of energy, like you had trouble understanding concept that friction brakes = wasting energy in the other thread.

 

[wyx087]

BBC Click ran a special on EV's and small bit about PHEV

Click - The Electric Vehicle Revolution

Click is taking to the road and looking at the future of electric vehicles.

www.bbc.co.uk

It includes:

• lithium mining in cornwall
• BMW PHEV geofencing EV mode in city centre (I think this should be enforced by law)
• highlights infrastructure issue, especially in rural area
• EV vs ICE total lifetime cost - EV is cheaper despite £10k more expensive initial purchase example and lower 9k annual miles
• (latest smart phone camera testing)
• How Vehicle to Grid works, advantages for consumer and how it will help the grid

 

[JonathanRyan]

Since you mention Tesla, I will point out an over the air update they made on all Tesla Model S. Last year I think it was a Tesla Model S burst into flames whilst it was parked in a car park. Something had gone wrong with the battery cooling system, the battery overheated and caught fire. Tesla didn't even put out a recall on all Model S cars to check if any other cars were showing signs of similar cooling system failures or damage. They just sent out an over the air software upgrade that reduced the amount the batteries could recharge to prevent the chances of it overheating. As a result the range of the cars is now reduced. If there are any other cars out there with a battery cooling system starting to fail, how do they know that the new level of charge still won't overheat the damaged system. Tesla should have replaced the batteries on every single Model S, just as BMW and Ford are doing on their PHEVs.

Or......Tesla became aware of a potentially serious problem with their cars. They immediately sent out a software fix to prevent it happening in all the cars in the country. Since then, no other cars have caught fire because Tesla safely managed the fault.

Meanwhile BMW and Ford rely on contacting customers and asking them to pop in when they aren't too busy avoiding the global pandemic to get an upgrade over a cup of coffee which may prevent them being burned alive any day soon.

It's all spin, innit?

Though in other "we all hate Tesla" news, this is a bit worrying Worn-out NAND flash blamed for Tesla vehicle gremlins, such as rearview cam failures and silenced audio alerts • The Register

TLR; the memory in cars made as recently as 2 years ago has literally worn out. This potentially affects trivial things like reversing cameras, internal demisting and, err autopilot. Tesla have said that in future they will fix their cars less often to prolong their lives......

 

[JonathanRyan]

• EV vs ICE total lifetime cost - EV is cheaper despite £10k more expensive initial purchase example and lower 9k annual miles

Ooo that's interesting. BBC are usually very good at stuff like this - I'll take a look.

 

[wyx087]

Ooo that's interesting. BBC are usually very good at stuff like this - I'll take a look.

I looked at the maths more closely, they are, in effect, saying the Kona EV example will retain 52% of its value 4 years later whereas the ICE mild hybrid Kona will only retain 35%. It's a rather large departure from current normal car depreciation.

But I think consider current very short supply of EV's and the very quickly changing mindset towards EV. Second hand market for EV's will be a seller's market for the next couple of years.

 

[nilagin]

Only if you ignore conservation of energy, like you had trouble understanding concept that friction brakes = wasting energy in the other thread.

I didn't have trouble understanding the concept of friction brakes wasting energy at all the only bit that confused me was EV charging when braking, or slowing down because you kept changing the goal posts and kept changing your mind on as to how it worked and then denying what you had previously written, even though what you had previously written was still there for all to see.

 

[wyx087]

I didn't have trouble understanding the concept of friction brakes wasting energy at all the only bit that confused me was EV charging when braking, or slowing down because you kept changing the goal posts and kept changing your mind on as to how it worked and then denying what you had previously written, even though what you had previously written was still there for all to see.

I'll just leave this here:

Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

VED for any vehicle with a list price over £40,000 attracts a 5 year VED additional charge of £350 PA. This effectively halves the Govt grant on a £40k Tesla model 3. As far as regularly driving > 200 miles, this year I have made at least 10 trips towing a 1700kg caravan ...

www.talkphotography.co.uk

You can say whatever you like, whatever makes you happy But for me:

You're just going round in circles now, enjoy your spin.

 

[nilagin]

Or......Tesla became aware of a potentially serious problem with their cars. They immediately sent out a software fix to prevent it happening in all the cars in the country. Since then, no other cars have caught fire because Tesla safely managed the fault.

Meanwhile BMW and Ford rely on contacting customers and asking them to pop in when they aren't too busy avoiding the global pandemic to get an upgrade over a cup of coffee which may prevent them being burned alive any day soon.

It's all spin, innit?

No it's not all spin at all.
With EV's one of the main things people look at is the range they can achieve. They compare that and other things with other cars on the market. People would have bought a Tesla in part because of that vehicle range.
Then because a car bursts into flames, they reduce the charging capacity and consequently the range of the vehicle. They didn't even tell owners, they just rolled out the software update and the first owners knew of it was a reduction on range the first time they recharged after the update.
Just because another car hasn't caught fire yet, it doesn't mean there aren't cars out there whose cooling system hadn't already started to fail and the current charge limit is still too high, it could be that it will just take longer for it to get to the point of failure that it does cause a fire.
This is on all Tesla S models worldwide, not just in this country. Tesla should have replaced all the cooling system, not just updated the cooling management system to cut off earlier. The vehicle should be able to perform as advertised and what people had paid for.
If you had bought a BMW or Ford PHEV, and told by the companies that charging the battery may cause a fire, we won't fix it but we will disable it. Would you be happy that you had paid the extra money for a hybrid that can't be used in EV mode to save on fuel and enissions and just sent on your way.
If you bought a 4 slice toaster, there is a problem with one of the heating elements and the manufacturer puts out a product recall, their fix is to disable the rogue elements in all their toasters and now they are only a 3 slice toaster. Would you be happy to settle for a 3 slice toaster, even though you had paid extra because a 4 slice toaster is what you needed.
It has nothing to do with knocking Tesla, it is about doing the right thing.

 

[nilagin]

I'll just leave this here:

Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

VED for any vehicle with a list price over £40,000 attracts a 5 year VED additional charge of £350 PA. This effectively halves the Govt grant on a £40k Tesla model 3. As far as regularly driving > 200 miles, this year I have made at least 10 trips towing a 1700kg caravan ...

www.talkphotography.co.uk

You can say whatever you like, whatever makes you happy But for me:

Nice try. Kind of you to link to someone else's post that highlighted my confusion over somebody else's post. That post was a contradiction of your post, the one that you denied you had written.
How about you dig that one out and post a link to that instead.

 

[Mr Bump]

the writing is on the wall for filthy cars like diesel, if all people can do is focus their negative energy on electric isn't up to it then thats fine.

folk are not interested in exploring the middle ground, the amazing amount of hybrid cars out there, and certainly in the next 5 years that area of cars will simply explode with tech and creativity. Given also the writing on the wall is there for Rishi to claw back all the billions he has spent on Covid, Diesel fuel and cars will get a tax thrashing. As i have always said, electric needs time and businesses need to see the economic benefits of installing chargers but just think up the line at all the places that will be begging for your business and will install chargers to get it.

1. Workplaces, in 4 years time i see loads of workplaces having chargers on at least 50% of their parking spots so you wont even need a main charger at home.
2. Supermarkets, thats 2 hours of charging per week.
3. Cinemas, shopping centres all those ultra garbage places people go and sit for hours while their cars gently charge up.

in 10 years time if a business doesn't offer charging it will be in the minority.

give it 5 years and then lets have the same conversation in the mean time all those dirty diesel drivers carry on as you are.

 

[wyx087]

Nice try. Kind of you to link to someone else's post that highlighted my confusion over somebody else's post. That post was a contradiction of your post, the one that you denied you had written.
How about you dig that one out and post a link to that instead.

Look, as I said, you can say whatever you like. I'm going to leave you to it, I've provided link if people want to go back to see what's really going on.

If you want any more response from me regarding the old topic. You'll need to post actual facts with sources linked. Otherwise it's just you making mumbling noises.

Good day, sir!

 

[nilagin]

the writing is on the wall for filthy cars like diesel, if all people can do is focus their negative energy on electric isn't up to it then thats fine.

folk are not interested in exploring the middle ground, the amazing amount of hybrid cars out there, and certainly in the next 5 years that area of cars will simply explode with tech and creativity. Given also the writing on the wall is there for Rishi to claw back all the billions he has spent on Covid, Diesel fuel and cars will get a tax thrashing. As i have always said, electric needs time and businesses need to see the economic benefits of installing chargers but just think up the line at all the places that will be begging for your business and will install chargers to get it.

1. Workplaces, in 4 years time i see loads of workplaces having chargers on at least 50% of their parking spots so you wont even need a main charger at home.
2. Supermarkets, thats 2 hours of charging per week.
3. Cinemas, shopping centres all those ultra garbage places people go and sit for hours while their cars gently charge up.

in 10 years time if a business doesn't offer charging it will be in the minority.

give it 5 years and then lets have the same conversation in the mean time all those dirty diesel drivers carry on as you are.

Cost of diesel being hit heavily will push up haulage costs and everything we buy would also be hit heavily.
As far as charging at supermarkets is concerned, who in there right mind spends 2 hrs a week in a supermarket. I visit once a week and I am in and out most times in less than 20 minutes. The only places I visit where I could charge an EV are concert venues. Not all of those have designated car parks. I use Just Park to book spaces, some of which are roadside, so no guarantee that one or any would have charging points.
With parking for 3000 cars at work, I can't really see my employer installing in excess of another 1400 chargers.

 

[nilagin]

Look, as I said, you can say whatever you like. I'm going to leave you to it, I've provided link if people want to go back to see what's really going on.

If you want any more response from me regarding the old topic. You'll need to post actual facts with sources linked. Otherwise it's just you making mumbling noises.

Good day, sir!

Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

What about the ~60% of energy wasted as heat or sound by the internal combustion engine? Petrol engine getting 40% efficient is news worthy and world leading apparently: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-toyota-20-litre-petrol-engine-world’s-‘most-thermally-efficient’ I just...

www.talkphotography.co.uk

Here you go, your contradiction of your own statement.