Hybrid cars??????????

[Box Brownie]

MG, a great old British brand.....though that should was!

Now a Chinese state owned company, plus China is the country of manufacture, does that alone infer the maybe strange low pricing structure???

 

[wyx087]

Whatever happened to the hydrogen fuel cell? Use electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, then combust it to produce water. Sounded like a much better prospect than mining for precious metals.

If you look at electricity production to wheel efficiency. Hydrogen electrolysis is almost as inefficient as ICE. Battery are far more efficient.
End of the day, which is more important? Initial higher production emissions, but higher efficiency and can be repurposed + recycled, or lower initial production emission, but huge energy use throughout its life.
Between LED light bulb and old style light bulb, I’d always choose the more efficient one.

MG, a great old British brand.....though that should was!

Now a Chinese state owned company, plus China is the country of manufacture, does that alone infer the maybe strange low pricing structure???

Their petrol ZS compact SUV isn’t strangely low priced though.

May be they just have their battery supply chain sorted. Unlike Jaguar who had to pause IPace production line due to battery shortages.

 

[nilagin]

I think the real reason for heavy discount is that MG are committed to EV’s. They seem to produce more EV than market demand. As market demand picks up from changing mindset, their cars are here and available for purchase.

This is a kind of foresight. Not relying on market survey and just selling the lowest common denominator....... something Henry Ford had commented on in early 1900’s.

More like a case of hardly anybody buys MG's in the UK.
Alot of car manufacturers can sell more of just one of their models in one month than MG can sell of their entire range in a whole year.
Quite simply MG are producing more cars regardless of drivetrain than the market warrants, these lockdowns are probably doing them a favour, they haven't got to pay wages and waste time trying to sell more cars that nobody wants to buy.

 

[omens]

End of the day, which is more important? Initial higher production emissions, but higher efficiency and can be repurposed + recycled, or lower initial production emission, but huge energy use throughout its life.
Between LED light bulb and old style light bulb, I’d always choose the more efficient one..

LED one provided the light output is equal.

My concerns are really about the shortsighted nature of how things are done. Unless the batteries are 100% recyclable and all precious metals are recoverable, mining for a finite resource is no different to relying on fossil fuels.

 

[nilagin]

Samsung are going to be extremely busy manufacturing at least 47,000 plug in hybrid batteries as replacements for at least two car brands worldwide as well as the batteries for vehicles that the car manufacturers have recieved orders for. I know someone who's BMW PHEV was supposed to have been built at the start of the year for April delivery, she is still waiting.
Oddly BMW have known about a problem that long, but other than telling customers not to plug in and charge the battery as it may result in a fire, they only announced a recall last month. Ford learnt of the problem more recently and had recalls announced in June (if only BMW had highlighted a problem earlier) in their newly released Kuga PHEV. Ford had already tried 2 or 3 times to fix the problem on some customer cars thinking it was an installation problem of their own, until it came to light that it is some sort of contamination in the battery casing during the battery manufacturing process. Ford don't expect to be able to start replacing batteries on customer cars until next month, no idea when they expect to be able to resume production of Kuga PHEVs again, or indeed when BMW will be able to do the same.
I can't find anything to say if other car manufacturers also use the same Samsung batteries. But this is going to be very costly to Samsung, not only for the cost of the replacement batteries, but also the car manufacturers warranty fees and any customer compensation.

 

[Pound Coin]

EVs simply allow us to carry on with unsustainable private transport. What is really needed is a push for small solutions, like electric bicycles and scooters, and one big solution - lifestyles that aren’t predicated on large vehicle private transport.

It almost certainly won’t happen though. until it is too late.

 

[nilagin]

EVs simply allow us to carry on with unsustainable private transport. What is really needed is a push for small solutions, like electric bicycles and scooters, and one big solution - lifestyles that aren’t predicated on large vehicle private transport.

It almost certainly won’t happen though. until it is too late.

For alot of people private transport is more a means of getting to work rather than lifestyle. Lifestyle just becomes an added bonus. There is no public transport that would get me to work, a bike would take around 45 minutes, where as by car I can get there in 10 minutes.
My son has almost 50 mile commute to work, so a bike or electric scooter is definitely out of the question. I have many workmates that also have around 40 miles plus commute to work.

 

[Cockney]

According to the mail today 11 year olds are mining cobalt for £1.50 a day.

We need a much wider, holistic vision of future transport.

 

[JonathanRyan]

EV are almost at price parity.

Petrol MG ZS auto start just under £18k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ln139rf&radius=1500&make=MG&model=MG ZS&include-delivery-option=on&year-from=new&transmission=Automatic
Electric MG ZS EV start just under £20k: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price-asc&postcode=ln139rf&radius=1500&make=MG&model=MG ZS&include-delivery-option=on&year-from=new&transmission=Automatic&fuel-type=Electric

For £2000 more, not only much cheaper daily running, it's also much safer: Petrol ZS has EuroNCAP rating of 3. Electric ZS EV has rating of 5. (source)

Ah, I was being lazy and just copying figures from further up the thread because they fitted with roughly what I thought they were when I looked

That NCAP looks suspicious though - it's almost like the petrol model is a couple of years old and the electric has been redesigned. (Newer almost always = safer). Maybe they are running down old "stock" of the petrol at a deliberately high price to make the electric look affordable. Who knows? Personally I wouldn't pay 18K for an MG but I might just pay 20k for an electric car

 

[nilagin]

Ah, I was being lazy and just copying figures from further up the thread because they fitted with roughly what I thought they were when I looked

That NCAP looks suspicious though - it's almost like the petrol model is a couple of years old and the electric has been redesigned. (Newer almost always = safer). Maybe they are running down old "stock" of the petrol at a deliberately high price to make the electric look affordable. Who knows? Personally I wouldn't pay 18K for an MG but I might just pay 20k for an electric car

An NCAP 3 star rating for Chinese cars is good. It isn't that many years ago that some were barred from importing into Europe because they didn't meet basic crash protection requirements. That fact the EV has achieved a 5 star rating is astounding.
I certainly wouldn't entertain buying any MG and certainly not anywhere near those prices.

 

[nilagin]

According to the mail today 11 year olds are mining cobalt for £1.50 a day.

We need a much wider, holistic vision of future transport.

But how much is £1.50 worth in their country? Not too many years ago people in India were being paid £1 a day to cut up old ships on beaches for scrap. Obviously it's not alot but to an extent it is relative.
In 2003/4 we built press tools for the Land Rover Discovery 3 and Range Rover Sport, I can't remember what my hourly rate was, but my Polish counterparts who had come over to work on their own press tools were only on around £1 an hour and they considered themselves to be reasonably paid.
We also built some press tools for Jaguar a few years prior to that. A Jaguar engineer came who came to sign off on our tooling and he had been out in China to sign off some press tools for the same car, to meet their shipping dates, the Chinese toolmakers had to work at the weekend, their wages was a bowl of rice for lunch on each day.
Obviously these people are being exploited because they need the money to live, but it is their country that has put them in that position in the first place. There is probably alot of stuff that we buy every week, even food and clothing, where someone has been paid next to nothing.

 

[Cockney]

But how much is £1.50 worth in their country? Not too many years ago people in India were being paid £1 a day to cut up old ships on beaches for scrap. Obviously it's not alot but to an extent it is relative.
In 2003/4 we built press tools for the Land Rover Discovery 3 and Range Rover Sport, I can't remember what my hourly rate was, but my Polish counterparts who had come over to work on their own press tools were only on around £1 an hour and they considered themselves to be reasonably paid.
We also built some press tools for Jaguar a few years prior to that. A Jaguar engineer came who came to sign off on our tooling and he had been out in China to sign off some press tools for the same car, to meet their shipping dates, the Chinese toolmakers had to work at the weekend, their wages was a bowl of rice for lunch on each day.
Obviously these people are being exploited because they need the money to live, but it is their country that has put them in that position in the first place. There is probably alot of stuff that we buy every week, even food and clothing, where someone has been paid next to nothing.

11.

 

[Pound Coin]

For alot of people private transport is more a means of getting to work rather than lifestyle. Lifestyle just becomes an added bonus. There is no public transport that would get me to work, a bike would take around 45 minutes, where as by car I can get there in 10 minutes.
My son has almost 50 mile commute to work, so a bike or electric scooter is definitely out of the question. I have many workmates that also have around 40 miles plus commute to work.

Lifestyles.

 

[nilagin]

11.

11 what?

 

[Marc]

11 what?

11 years old

 

[nilagin]

Lifestyles.

What has that got to do with where people work. Or perhaps you would like everyone to be unemployed so they wouldn't have a need for personal transport. Even if you don't drive and don't have a car, you indirectly rely on people who do have a car.

 

[nilagin]

11 years old

And?

 

[Cockney]

And?

And I don't want 11 year olds mining parts of my car.

 

[Pound Coin]

What has that got to do with where people work. Or perhaps you would like everyone to be unemployed so they wouldn't have a need for personal transport. Even if you don't drive and don't have a car, you indirectly rely on people who do have a car.

It‘s not what I’d like, you can wibble on like that as much as you want, it is a crap argument.

The world cannot have everyone with the same lifestyles as ours. That is a fact. The world isn’t coping with a small proportion of the world’s population having lifestyles like that.

”I’m carrying on, I’m alright Jack.” That’s how your post comes across, unfortunately.

 

[nilagin]

It‘s not what I’d like, you can wibble on like that as much as you want, it is a crap argument.

The world cannot have everyone with the same lifestyles as ours. That is a fact. The world isn’t coping with a small proportion of the world’s population having lifestyles like that.

”I’m carrying on, I’m alright Jack.” That’s how your post comes across, unfortunately.

So how does everyone with no other means of transport get to work? It isn't a case of I am alright Jack. That is just your narrow mindedness and lack of foresight.

 

[nilagin]

And I don't want 11 year olds mining parts of my car.

Nobody does, but there is probably a multitude of things in everyone's homes or in everyday use, that has had a child involved somewhere in it's manufacture.
I am not saying it is right, but they are only doing it because they need the money for their families to survive, they're not doing it for pocket money to spend on sweets or comics or whatever hobby they may have like we did with a paper round or whatever.
Take away their means of supplementing their family income and it could mean the child and or younger siblings could starve to death. It's a catch 22.
The other catch 22 is that some of these materials are toxic, the kids may well have a short life as a result, but will it be as short as if they had starved to death because they hadn't been mining the materials and had the income.

 

[Cockney]

Nobody does, but there is probably a multitude of things in everyone's homes or in everyday use, that has had a child involved somewhere in it's manufacture.
I am not saying it is right, but they are only doing it because they need the money for their families to survive, they're not doing it for pocket money to spend on sweets or comics or whatever hobby they may have like we did with a paper round or whatever.
Take away their means of supplementing their family income and it could mean the child and or younger siblings could starve to death. It's a catch 22.
The other catch 22 is that some of these materials are toxic, the kids may well have a short life as a result, but will it be as short as if they had starved to death because they hadn't been mining the materials and had the income.

In my view if we are looking to replace the ICE and fossil fuels to save the planet we should take the opportunity to replace it with something not only green but humane .
I'm not convinced Hybrids meet either criteria.
It's our behaviour and travel patterns and expectations that need to change.

 

[nilagin]

In my view if we are looking to replace the ICE and fossil fuels to save the planet we should take the opportunity to replace it with something not only green but humane .
I'm not convinced Hybrids meet either criteria.
It's our behaviour and travel patterns and expectations that need to change.

But as much as an 11 year old child mining raw materials is wrong, without that income, they and or their family will have no money for food. Isn't that inhumane?
Remove peoples expectations of a means of personal transport to get to work and for some you remove the possibility of them getting to work. Not everyone who hasn't got access to public transport that will get them to work, has the luxury of being close enough to work that they can use a bike or electric scooter.

 

[RedRobin]

In my view if we are looking to replace the ICE and fossil fuels to save the planet we should take the opportunity to replace it with something not only green but humane .
I'm not convinced Hybrids meet either criteria.

.... Ideally you're of course right, but human beings are far from 'humane' by their very nature when tempted by other things such as wealth.

It's our behaviour and travel patterns and expectations that need to change.

.... Unfortunately I'm not confident that, even if these discussed changes actually do prove to be the right ones in the longer term, they simply won't happen soon enough. Besides, just stopping the use of fossil fuels isn't going to solve the planet's future. Evolution is an extremely slooow moving series of compromises.

Reading my above comments you wouldn't believe that I'm an optimist would you!

What would I do if I won enough money on the lottery? - Buy a brand new Aston Martin V12 petrol guzzler! Seriously, I would. Or perhaps a Porsche GT3 RS like a friend has just bought.

 

[nilagin]

This seems to be an ideal solution.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

 

[wyx087]

This seems to be an ideal solution.

Redirect Notice

www.google.co.uk

..... and then you burn it to release the carbon back into the air? (ignoring other by-product of the combustion chemical reaction)
So the net result is consuming loads of resource from magical unicorn land to achieve net zero carbon emission at point of use. All in the name of dodging carbon tax.

The ONLY sensible use of that technology is to bury the man-made "fossil" fuel back into the ground.

 

[nilagin]

..... and then you burn it to release the carbon back into the air? (ignoring other by-product of the combustion chemical reaction)
So the net result is consuming loads of resource from magical unicorn land to achieve net zero carbon emission at point of use. All in the name of dodging carbon tax.

The ONLY sensible use of that technology is to bury the man-made "fossil" fuel back into the ground.

No it means a ready made fuel that can be distributed from existing fuel stations, not having to install charging stations all over the place, immediately overcomes the problems of EV charging for people that can't charge at home. No 11 or old kids mining the raw materials for batteries. No more CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere than is already there. The fact that when the fuel is manufactured and being stored, there will actually be less CO2 in the atmosphere. It means not having to develop electric aircraft, ships, large trucks etc. It's a win win.

 

[Pound Coin]

So how does everyone with no other means of transport get to work? It isn't a case of I am alright Jack. That is just your narrow mindedness and lack of foresight.

You are just interested in you.

One of the manifestations of this is attacking attacking people that say things you have difficulty understanding.

Anyway, enough. My posts are clear, They stand.

 

[Cobra]

This seems to be an ideal solution.

making a liquid fuel by sucking carbon dioxide (CO2) out of the atmosphere

Won't someone think of the trees ?

 

[wyx087]

No it means a ready made fuel that can be distributed from existing fuel stations, not having to install charging stations all over the place, immediately overcomes the problems of EV charging for people that can't charge at home. No 11 or old kids mining the raw materials for batteries. No more CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere than is already there. The fact that when the fuel is manufactured and being stored, there will actually be less CO2 in the atmosphere. It means not having to develop electric aircraft, ships, large trucks etc. It's a win win.

You are 100% sure this kind of fuel, when burnt, won’t have other toxic emissions?

Sounds a lot like the diesel sales pitch.

 

[nilagin]

Won't someone think of the trees ?

But it is excess carbon that the trees can't cope with. The trees will be just fine.
We already have global warming from CO2 emissions. Remove fossil fuels, just means global warming won't get any worse. Using the CO2 to make fuel will be removing some from the atmosphere. Yes it will go back into the atmosphere when the fuel is being used, but whilst the fuel is being stored ready for use in refineries, petrol stations, vehicle fuel tanks etc, there will be less excess CO2 and global warming will subside.
Replacing ICE with EV, won't improve global warming, it will just keep it at an already constant.

 

[RedRobin]

You are just interested in you.

.... 'After me, you're first' is a mantra hardwired into an extremely high percentage of human beings. I won't say "99%" because some clever dick will want a source posted for a quote of such a statistic. But I don't believe anyone can claim this is not true, at least in the real world.

So yes, each of us is primarily interested in ourselves.

 

[nilagin]

You are 100% sure this kind of fuel, when burnt, won’t have other toxic emissions?

Sounds a lot like the diesel sales pitch.

Modern emission systems will remove anything that MAY exist.
Meanwhile you still 100% ignore the toxins that get into the water supply from mining the raw materials that are required to make the batteries for EV's.
They are already looking into digging up sea beds to mine more materials.
Surely it makes more sense to use the excess carbon we have already put in the air, rather than dig up large areas of sea bed and land and cause more problems.

 

[nilagin]

You are just interested in you.

One of the manifestations of this is attacking attacking people that say things you have difficulty understanding.

Anyway, enough. My posts are clear, They stand.

The only thing clear about your posts is that you are just a troll.

If your posts are so clear, why don't they give a solution as to how people are supposed to get work without personal transport?

What about my posts is it that means I am just interested in me?

 

[RedRobin]

Anyone would think from this discussion that everyone believes that solving CO2 emissions is going to solve problems for Planet Earth. This isn't so - There are many other problems such as the pollution of the world's oceans and the food chain. Refer to Sir David Attenborough's presentations.

I reckon that sometime in the future this planet will evolve into something quite different, hopefully with a greatly reduced human population if any at all.

 

[LCPete]

Modern emission systems will remove anything that MAY exist.
Meanwhile you still 100% ignore the toxins that get into the water supply from mining the raw materials that are required to make the batteries for EV's.
They are already looking into digging up sea beds to mine more materials.
Surely it makes more sense to use the excess carbon we have already put in the air, rather than dig up large areas of sea bed and land and cause more problems.

Yes I agree the way they are mining the raw materials for the batteries is very bad for the environment and deep sea mining’s even worse
That would destroy habitat that hasn’t even been properly studied yet and apparently this would badly affect the whole marine environment

 

[Cobra]

But it is excess carbon that the trees can't cope with. The trees will be just fine.

Its not carbon they eat its carbon dioxide.
2 different elements
Carbon (often abbreviated with the chemical symbol C) is the sixth most abundant element on Earth. ... Carbon dioxide or CO2 is the chemical compound of two oxygen atoms and one carbon atom, at room temperature it is gaseous and is a vital gas for life in the atmosphere since it plays a major role in photosynthesis

 

[Pound Coin]

.... 'After me, you're first' is a mantra hardwired into an extremely high percentage of human beings. I won't say "99%" because some clever dick will want a source posted for a quote of such a statistic. But I don't believe anyone can claim this is not true, at least in the real world.

So yes, each of us is primarily interested in ourselves.

I think that applies; and sticks if we dont accept that collectively we are able to modify individual behaviour.

However we are able to do that as a species - there are many examples over time of humans working collectively for each other.

Whether we can do that in this Western consumerist “Me First!” economy that we have constructed (and use its benefits to circularly self-justify it) is the point.

 

[Pound Coin]

Anyone would think from this discussion that everyone believes that solving CO2 emissions is going to solve problems for Planet Earth. This isn't so - There are many other problems such as the pollution of the world's oceans and the food chain. Refer to Sir David Attenborough's presentations.

I reckon that sometime in the future this planet will evolve into something quite different, hopefully with a greatly reduced human population if any at all.

In the not too distant future, indeed. Maybe not in our lifetimes, if we are middle aged.

Life will have the biggest reset ever on earth, and I believe that there will be lifeforms that survive the toxic environmental mess that humans have created.

 

[RedRobin]

I think that applies; and sticks if we dont accept that collectively we are able to modify individual behaviour.

However we are able to do that as a species - there are many examples over time of humans working collectively for each other.

Whether we can do that in this Western consumerist “Me First!” economy that we have constructed (and use its benefits to circularly self-justify it) is the point.

.... I agree [Me agreeing with Pound Coin - That's a first!]

There are indeed many many many examples of humans working collectively for each other. The world pandemic further illustrates this happening currently. And this happens on very small local scales as well. It's all very noble and encouraging.

But, call me an old cynic (or similar), this simply isn't happening on a big enough scale to make a difference fast enough. I have already exposed my honesty here to the fact that, if I could afford it, I would buy a fast petrol guzzling Aston Martin V12 or similar. Perhaps the latest high performance BMW X5 M - I hired one for a photographic wildlife trip to Scotland in 2018.

I don't believe that modifying individual behaviour can be relied on, nor that it can happen fast enough. Apart from the possibility of inserting a behaviour altering microchip, it is dependant on the individual's desire to change in spite of problems being faced. And that's the problem - Within the whole world's population there are not enough people interested in changing their ways and anyway who has the right to play 'God' and dictate/advise what people should and shouldn't do.

I think that this planet's problems started in the times of the Victorian Industrial Revolution which at the time was hailed as a great thing for mankind! Now it's like trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.