MAC or PC?

[Peter Drought]

As I have not used PCs and Macs (as the OP requested) I shouldn't be commenting here but it always surprises me when there are complaints about PCs crashing.

Perhaps I have been very lucky but in the many years I used XP my machine never crashed. I don't mean hardly ever, I mean never. I kept it updated, ran security software regularly and kept the PCs as free as possible from rubbish. When I changed to Windows 7 I had the same experience and now on Win 10 for some time there have been no problems too.

Given the huge number of PCs there will be some that fail but I wonder how many crashes are the result of user error, or user disinterest.

Dave

Thinking back to when I used to use Windows, a lot of the issues used to occur when the issued an update. In one or two cases it bricked the machine and required a re-install from disc image. Windows 10 was one prominent example.

 

[GTG]

You can buy cheap OEM licenses for under a tenner

£3.99 for win 10 pro I think I paid lol.
One time use only though. You can`t reinstall.

 

[hashcake]

£3.99 for win 10 pro I think I paid lol.
One time use only though. You can`t reinstall.

Years ago you could use the OEM key for a maximum of 3 machines.
I think I paid a similar price that you did, however, when I cocked up the initial dual boot when I built my latest desktop, I used the key twice and it was fine.

 

[neil_g]

Thinking back to when I used to use Windows, a lot of the issues used to occur when the issued an update. In one or two cases it bricked the machine and required a re-install from disc image. Windows 10 was one prominent example.

Working in enterprise support I've literally never seen this happen. I can only assume that on slower machines people get impatient and power off during the "please do not power off" stage.

£3.99 for win 10 pro I think I paid lol.
One time use only though. You can`t reinstall.

You can reactivate, even if you phone MS activation line they will let OEM go through. I think generally they're just happy you have a valid licence.

 

[GeeJay57]

Working in enterprise support I've literally never seen this happen. I can only assume that on slower machines people get impatient and power off during the "please do not power off" stage.

How long should one wait? I've left the dv7 overnight before now and still gets stuck. Just sits there looking at ya! Updates shouldn't take hours and hours should they?

FWIW when I was at work, I had no significant issues with my Windows laptop business machines. Meanwhile several colleagues around me needed replacement laptops or had real problems with lock ups, BSODs, etc. We were issued with new HP Elitebook laptops every couple of years. Of course (?) at work, I didn't play games, do photography or music stuff on my laptop.

At home, I've always had cheaper lower spec machines, some home built, some not and use them for a wider range of stuff and no support from IT professionals. So maybe there's a pattern emerging and perhaps therein lies the problem...

 

[neil_g]

How long should one wait? I've left the dv7 overnight before now and still gets stuck. Just sits there looking at ya! Updates shouldn't take hours and hours should they?

How long is a piece of string? Depends on the system spec (SSD systems will typically perform much better during large "feature" updates), other load(s) on the system etc.

If there is another underlying issue then that could compound things, but would not directly be an issue caused by updates etc etc etc.

A healthy, reasonable performing system shouldn't have a plethora of issues at update time.

Meanwhile several colleagues around me needed replacement laptops or had real problems with lock ups, BSODs, etc.

ah the work laptop, often abused by people who don't care about another persons property.. glad i dont have to deal with that any more

 

[Toxic]

I have been using Mac for my photography for the last 12 years, iMac's and now a Mac Pro and for what I do they are perfect, for the day job I use a PC which is 2 years old and has been away for repair 3 times...

Happy to use both prefer to use my Mac.

 

[GTG]

I have been using Mac for my photography for the last 12 years, iMac's and now a Mac Pro and for what I do they are perfect, for the day job I use a PC which is 2 years old and has been away for repair 3 times...

Happy to use both prefer to use my Mac.

Strange, i never had to repair a PC in 20 years

 

[GeeJay57]

How long is a piece of string? Depends on the system spec (SSD systems will typically perform much better during large "feature" updates), other load(s) on the system etc.

If there is another underlying issue then that could compound things, but would not directly be an issue caused by updates etc etc etc.

A healthy, reasonable performing system shouldn't have a plethora of issues at update time.



ah the work laptop, often abused by people who don't care about another persons property.. glad i dont have to deal with that any more

To be honest some of my colleagues had big problems with brand new laptops that hadn't even been out of the office and had really not been abused. As said, I had no problems with any of my work laptops. Probably had at least ten of them over the years from XP to Win7. Had desktops prior to that from MS-DOS onwards.

 

[neil_g]

bad hardware batch then maybe. or poor custom image business deployment etc.

to level this out a bit, I remember a batch of 2011 (I think) MBP with intermittent screen issues. because the issue was intermittent Apple wouldn't touch them.

 

[GeeJay57]

Yeah, maybe...

Poor when companies won't/don't always stand behind their product(s). I'm sure Apple have their share of problems. Given that there are numerous companies designing and producing PCs, I would expect that results in more opportunities for issues. Whereas with Apple it's all (kind of) in house, so should be able to iron out hardware and OS software issues. My comments are just based on my experiences, I really don't have an axe to grind.

 

[holty]

has no one on here got a sense of humour
pc's should be banned and mac's should rule the world

 

[hashcake]

has no one on here got a sense of humour
pc's should be banned and mac's should rule the world

If you had used smileys in your original post people would have know you weren't being serious.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Yeah, maybe...

Poor when companies won't/don't always stand behind their product(s). I'm sure Apple have their share of problems. Given that there are numerous companies designing and producing PCs, I would expect that results in more opportunities for issues. Whereas with Apple it's all (kind of) in house, so should be able to iron out hardware and OS software issues. My comments are just based on my experiences, I really don't have an axe to grind.

Some manufacturers - I have in mind HP and Toshiba particularly, but there are others - who have been very poor with the quality of their products when they should have been a lot better. Sony was also known for making attractive but fragile laptops 10-15 years ago with the Viao series. A major flaw with many of the bigger makers is that they just abandoned the premium end of the market to Apple and produced cheap plastic garbage.

 

[jonneymendoza]

macs are for people who know what there doing
pc are for people who think they know what there doing

Actually the reverse.

 

[neil_g]

Hope nobody wants a new i9 macbook, you might want a bigger freezer for it to go in..

*I'm aware of other laptops also having cooling issues with the i9. However none to this degree. I just found the freezer aspect amusing.

Plus there's the 13" i5/i7 also suffering with thermal issues. Seems the newer macbooks can't cope with a bit more power?

 

[Brazo]

Hope nobody wants a new i9 macbook, you might want a bigger freezer for it to go in..

*I'm aware of other laptops also having cooling issues with the i9. However none to this degree. I just found the freezer aspect amusing.

Plus there's the 13" i5/i7 also suffering with thermal issues. Seems the newer macbooks can't cope with a bit more power?

As you know Neil packing thermal components into a tight space will only end one way regardless of the pc/mac sticker on the front.

Of course the ‘sticker’ is all that differentiates laptops and all in ones now.

Where pc’s of course rule is the ability to build a hugely powerful and 0db silent machine.

 

[holty]

If you had used smileys in your original post people would have know you weren't being serious.

i am serious

 

[neil_g]

Not too long ago people have been suspended for stirring the mac vs pc pot and threads locked. Let's not go there, keep it factual..

 

[GeeJay57]

As you know Neil packing thermal components into a tight space will only end one way regardless of the pc/mac sticker on the front.

Of course the ‘sticker’ is all that differentiates laptops and all in ones now.

Where pc’s of course rule is the ability to build a hugely powerful and 0db silent machine.

Agreed.

The PC really does win out on the customisation side of things. The end user can choose every aspect of the machine, from the case, motherboard, cpu, graphics hard drive, interface cards, etc. etc. And then choose which OS they want, which doesn't have to be Windows (or macOS ). So if that's what you need/want, then the PC route is pretty much the only way to get there. Could build a pretty good PC for the cost of a Mac 27 (maybe less, it's been a while since I built one) and really awesome custom PC for the 4.5 grand that a Mac Pro costs.

The Mac 27 wins on style IMHO. It's a clean, elegant design and though not 0dB it is pretty quiet and does what I need it to do and I appreciate that it's really only a laptop in a nice dress.. I've also grown to prefer macOS over Win10 for the tasks that I do these days.

 

[Neilc28]

Whereas with Apple it's all (kind of) in house, so should be able to iron out hardware and OS software issues.

You would think..... I've raised multiple issues with Apple support in the past, which affected multiple companies, they simply denied the issue existed for months even though it could be replicated and forum threads of multiple users experiencing the same fault, this was namely SMB and also a plague of WiFi issues that occurred around Lion/Sierra era. For this reason I've never deemed OS X/MacOS to be enterprise ready, in any way shape or form.... The truth as far as I see it, is that Apple cares more about their primary revenue market (iOS devices) whilst MacOS takes a bit of a back seat...

If it comes across that I'm bitter about Apple Support, I am!

 

[GeeJay57]

You would think..... I've raised multiple issues with Apple support in the past, which affected multiple companies, they simply denied the issue existed for months even though it could be replicated and forum threads of multiple users experiencing the same fault, this was namely SMB and also a plague of WiFi issues that occurred around Lion/Sierra era. For this reason I've never deemed OS X/MacOS to be enterprise ready, in any way shape or form.... The truth as far as I see it, is that Apple cares more about their primary revenue market (iOS devices) whilst MacOS takes a bit of a back seat...

If it comes across that I'm bitter about Apple Support, I am!

Bad customer service is bad customer service. My brother experienced poor support from Apple for one of their products and won't have a bar of them. I've not needed their support so far for the devices I have or had. If they (Apple) p**s me off, then I'll not purchase from them again. As it is...

 

[stupar]

I love PC's for unadulterated customisation.
My current PC looks like a Unicorn shat on it but it's a nice clean build to look at through the window.
Sick bags are available for those that hate RGB though

 

[andrewc]

I switched from Windows to OSX in around 2008 as I hated Windows Vista with a passion. At that time a Macbook and later MBP's were moderately expensive alternatives to Windows. They've proven to be reliable both in terms of hardware and software and quite future proof. However I'm considering switching back as the prices for a half decent MBP is pretty high now and Windows 10 is a much better experience now.

 

[FlyPhot]

An interesting read, from a personal perspective I changed to a Macbook around 11 years ago, and it is still going strong now, although I can no longer update the OS and I have a battery problem that cannot be resolved as Apple no longer provide support (it's too old). I do like MacOSX. But, due to not being able to use new image editing software on the Mac (the OS is too old) I have had to buy a Windows laptop (mainly due to the cost of Macs) and I have to say that I am very pleased with it, I like the newest version of Windows (it seems that they have tried to make it look-and-feel like Mac, IMHO) so no complaints from me.

I also think that once I do need a more powerful machine i'll probably look to build my own hi-spec Windows PC.

just my tuppeneth

 

[tattywelshie]

Wow, thanks for this, I suspected a can of worms, and that's what I got!!! I'm still none the wiser, what does seem obvious though is that off the shelf PC's should be avoided, PC's are easier to upgrade than MAC's but MAC's are more stable and last longer, and I don't need to spend ages trying to build a PC.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Wow, thanks for this, I suspected a can of worms, and that's what I got!!! I'm still none the wiser, what does seem obvious though is that off the shelf PC's should be avoided, PC's are easier to upgrade than MAC's but MAC's are more stable and last longer, and I don't need to spend ages trying to build a PC.

MACs were maybe more stable a decade ago, and even if they did last longer, which they don't, when they do need replacing you then need to buy an entire new system, monitor included. And that's without factoring in Apple's planned obsolescence.

 

[Stephen L]

MACs were maybe more stable a decade ago, and even if they did last longer, which they don't, when they do need replacing you then need to buy an entire new system, monitor included. And that's without factoring in Apple's planned obsolescence.

Yes, you have a good point. But everything has built-in obsolescence. If you had a PC which you had owned for, say, 5 years, it was stable, and then you had, say, a motherboard issue, you would struggle to find a new motherboard to accept your existing video card, memory chips, etc. And yes, you wouldn’t be able to even open a Mac in all probability. Also, the software writers are constantly rewriting their products, demanding more and more performance. For both systems.

Before I retired and went Mac, I was an IT manager and had built extremely stable Windows machines. In the main that was because I knew how to set them up and tweak them just so. If you know what you’re doing, and enjoy doing it, then you can truly say that Windows machines are better value than Macs. But now I no longer want to do that. I want, and can afford, a system I don’t have to think about, just use. If I have to buy a new system every 7 years or so, without having spent anything on it in the interim, so be it.

 

[FlyPhot]

Wow, thanks for this, I suspected a can of worms, and that's what I got!!! I'm still none the wiser, what does seem obvious though is that off the shelf PC's should be avoided, PC's are easier to upgrade than MAC's but MAC's are more stable and last longer, and I don't need to spend ages trying to build a PC.

I have to say that i'm fairly pleased with my HP Laptop, not too expensive but does the job admirably.

 

[neil_g]

Wow, thanks for this, I suspected a can of worms, and that's what I got!!! I'm still none the wiser, what does seem obvious though is that off the shelf PC's should be avoided, PC's are easier to upgrade than MAC's but MAC's are more stable and last longer, and I don't need to spend ages trying to build a PC.

I wouldn't necessarily say avoid off the shelf pcs, some manufactures top end are fine. Then you have the likes of pc specialist who build to order.

But there is absolutely no reason why one platform should be inheritantly more or less stable than the other. The problem (with both) is when people start installing junk (including so called system cleaners).

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Yes, you have a good point. But everything has built-in obsolescence. If you had a PC which you had owned for, say, 5 years, it was stable, and then you had, say, a motherboard issue, you would struggle to find a new motherboard to accept your existing video card, memory chips, etc. And yes, you wouldn’t be able to even open a Mac in all probability. Also, the software writers are constantly rewriting their products, demanding more and more performance. For both systems.

Before I retired and went Mac, I was an IT manager and had built extremely stable Windows machines. In the main that was because I knew how to set them up and tweak them just so. If you know what you’re doing, and enjoy doing it, then you can truly say that Windows machines are better value than Macs. But now I no longer want to do that. I want, and can afford, a system I don’t have to think about, just use. If I have to buy a new system every 7 years or so, without having spent anything on it in the interim, so be it.

That's not built in obsolescence though, that's something failing, not the manufacturer saying "want the new OS? Buy a new machine then".

I do know what I'm doing with PCs, but that's besides the point really, Windows 10 runs perfectly without making any tweaks, and 99% of the problems people post up about are PICNIC errors anyway.

 

[GeeJay57]

PICNIC errors?

 

[Tori_T]

Problem
In
Chair
Not
In
Computer

 

[Stephen L]

... and 99% of the problems people post up about are PICNIC errors anyway.

Thank you. That’s exactly what I mean. The “guy next door” stands little chance.

A large problem with Windows machine are due to people messing about under the hood, whereas the Mac operating system largely disables this possibility.

 

[onomatopoeia]

A large problem with Windows machine are due to people messing about under the hood, whereas the Mac operating system largely disables this possibility.

I'm sure when I had a Mac Mini (on OSX 10.5) I was able to get a root login with a trivial amount of effort, I just had to enable the root account through a couple of clicks, or something equally straighforward. Mind you, a later version of OSX (or macOS as it seems to be called now) you could login as root even without the password due to an epic security hole in it.

On either OS you can make a mess if you're determined to install crapware. "Cleaners" and the like being among the worst.

 

[ancient_mariner]

I'm sure when I had a Mac Mini (on OSX 10.5) I was able to get a root login with a trivial amount of effort, I just had to enable the root account through a couple of clicks, or something equally straighforward. Mind you, a later version of OSX (or macOS as it seems to be called now) you could login as root even without the password due to an epic security hole in it.

On either OS you can make a mess if you're determined to install crapware. "Cleaners" and the like being among the worst.

I'm pretty sure a fresh install of 10.5 gave the user root on first run, with the suggestion that you set a normal user access & PW, not that there were settings available to make OS-breaking changes without knowing how to use the CL.

A part of the perception of Macs comes from the good default choices that Apple made when it came to first run: there's little stupid junk and the whole thing is designed to look really cool and give the user a great first boot experience. By contrast Microsoft bury an otherwise clean and extremely helpful interface under piles of brightly coloured useless garbage, requiring the user to spend 30min deleting the junk on first boot in order to make the machine pleasant to use. It's only later that one starts to feel either frustrated or pleased about the choices the maker has made in the deeper aspects of their OS design.

 

[Furtim]

The reality is both platforms have come on a long way from their roots, but those old perceptions still prevail today for some.

I've owned and used PC's at home and work since 1987 and Macs since 2002 and a hell of a lot has changed for both. Windows was nothing more than lipstick on a pig for many years, just a 'pretty' front to a hideously limited OS, The original Mac OS was much the same in hindsight but at least it was designed with the purpose in mind. Windows was saddled with this backward compatibility crap for years and that held it back - Apple took a brave decision when they switched processor architecture to ditch support for the old Power PC apps, and this meant that when they went for OS X, they were able to pull something out of the bag that leapfrogged Windows at the time (remember OS X is based on NextBase, which in turn in based on Unix).

Early OS X platforms beat the crap out of Windows in terms of OS stability because they didn't have to worry about all the legacy stuff. Windows is floundering with VISTA and other gumpf while OS X is incrementally improving. It did 'just work', it did 'crash less' etc.

Skip on a few more years and Microsoft finally gets it's act together. Windows 10 is a huge improvement, and after many many years trying to prise people off the 'love it or hate it, well understood Windows XP', they can finally start to make inroads to moving people over to a stable platform. Meanwhile in 'OSX land', some of the sparkle has gone - they are not really innovating to the same extent as their earlier years.

Hardware wise - the price difference really isn't that significant like for like. PCs give you the choice and flexibility to spec up or down as you require - Apple doesn't. Whether that matters to you, only you know.
Eco System wise the increased choice comes with the downside of more permutations to support which leads to increased risk of conflicts / things crashing - it's not significant, everyone has gotten pretty good at managing this now, but it is an increased risk, so some people prefer to less choice - simpler to live with option. Again - personal choice.

Personally I prefer OS X to Windows, but I would love to spec the hardware to my personal situation, but I can't have both, so I'm forced to choose. Up to now, I've sucked up the hardware options from Apple as a compromise, but I'm approaching the point where the options offered on the new kit is diverging from what I want that I may suck up Windows 10 as the compromise, but I can't just yet because I need to keep OS X for other reasons (iOS development).

 

[LCPete]

I've had my dell i7 machine for a few years now and it's been excellent completely reliable
With help from people on here I've upgraded the memory added extra internal drives and now run an SSD hardrive
I haven't had to reinstall once (I just cloned the SSD) I wouldn't know where to start doing a reinstall
I've looked at iMacs they do look really nice but not being able to upgrade in the future put me off as wel as the cost
I also have a 13inch MacBook Pro laptop which I have also had for a while and it's been excellent as well

 

[gman]

I built my main PC in 2012 and it's been very reliable and still handles anything I throw at it with the i7-3770k processor. I've upgraded to primary OS hard drive to a large 500GB SSD and upgraded the graphics card a few times but other than that nothing has changed.

The only issue I can remember having was a display issue after upgrading the graphics card, but it turned out to be the graphics card which was the problem. Changing the graphics was a case of sliding off the side panel and pulling the card out. A little more time consuming with a Mac though....

If you aren't bothered about having easy access to upgrade components then I guess it's really down to which OS you prefer?

 

[Chipper]

Apologies i- I . haven't read all or watched the video as pressed for time this morning. I must disagree however that an SSD cannot be put into a Mac. It's not easy, true, but it is possible.

My Mac 27 was bought when I retired in 2014, which makes it a late 2013 design. A couple of weeks ago I looked at the cost of new and baulked but the guy in the apple store pointed me to two alternatives: get a memory boost and a hard drive upgrade [done now by a guy in Hereford for a fraction of the cost of a new one] and also the Mac Refurb store which would have been my next choice had I not found this guy.

I didn't use a Mac reseller as the one near us expected £90 to analyse - odd when every other world I walk into can give me an estimate for parts etc. Anyway, so hacked off was I with that I went to this guy in Hereford and have a happy machine again - it was struggling with 8MB of RAM. It now has 16 and a 1 TB SSD drive. I have my images on an external hard drive and they are backed up on two other hard drives as well. Yes, paranoia! I have to admit to wanting a MacBook Pro for out and about. I used PCs and work and Macs at home before I retired. I don't hate PCs. I have just found this perfect for my needs.

I know of a very able guy at our club who uses PCs and swears by them. He also paid 4 figures for a monitor at the photo show a couple of years ago. I guess you pays your money....