Marking as a camera club Judge

I sometimes hear the photo judge outline their criteria for marking - one of the best ones was marks out of 10 for technical competence ( exposure, focus, control of noise, no blown highlights, printing quality etc) and then an additional marks out of 10 for a more subjective assessment ( wow factor, story telling, breaking the 'rules', compositional quality, etc) - the marks are then added up to give a total score out of twenty.
 
Alternate proposition: don't give marks. Rather have the 'judges', and the club members openly discuss the images, and have the photographer present their aims in taking the image. (Dunno, maybe that's what you do all the time in the club outside of contests).

Either way it would be immeasurably more useful for all involved than assigning some arbitrary points system. Well, besides removing the dick waving rights of the winners of course.
 
The put down by a judge down here in the south is "it,s a record shot" we had the same lady a retired pro win everything for 3years solid trouble was she never helped anyone or gave much to the club in general so just loved everyone telling her what a great photographer she was. I always tried to help members with learning /understanding their gear technical terms etc.i will say what I have always said it takes a certain type of person to go to a club. I,m not normally a quitter but gave up after 3 years. I,d rather go on a TP meet.cheers mike
 
This is very interesting. Our club is very keen on developing its members. We have an on line competition that is monthly, to a theme. Your score only counts towards an end of year award if you mark everybody's images out of 10 in 4 categories which include the WOW factor. We also have a number of open competitions in both print and DPI. I couldn't get anything together in time for the first print comp of the season but went along anyway to watch. The judge scored out of 10. It seemed that 1st, 2nd and 3rd were 10 9 8 respectively plus 7 for HC and 6 for C. It was rather odd to hear positive critique coming out of this mouth and then have him say 5/10... He also missed a few star images but had prepared very well and was clearly revising his scores when he could see the print.

I do agree completely that being in this club has helped me improve. My previous club did not and I left it after only one season many years ago... It seemed that everything that did well in the competitions at that time were washed out, fake art photos of flowers. There is, of course, banter and a desire to win but the club is very supportive and runs beginners/improves groups. The idea of having separate categories for beginners and more experienced groups was discussed last year but in the end it was decided that it was better to be measured against the more experienced ones and also to be able to give them a run for their money.
 
Cheers all

While I welcome comments and opinions I have to take the view that the opinions of those determined never to set foot into a club night or who've never been a member don't count as much as those with club experience; so its great to have so many of you from clubs are also commenting :)

The majority of clubs run competitions, some as many as 1 per month, some just on a quarterly basis, but competitions are at the heart of most clubs. External Judges are there to try to move away from cliques voting for themselves or others perverting the marking for their own ends. Sadly its true that Judges (not me) can become known for what they prefer to see and hence shooting for the Judge is common. I even know of one 'super club' where they all enter national & international salons and they meet to discuss & shoot their entries based on who's doing the judging !!!

As I see it the point of marking is similar to the point of going for a distinction, such as with the Royal Photographic Society, its about challenging yourself to shoot to a theme of sorts and do better than you did last time; hence showing improvement

Competitions are then an easy means of getting you out to shoot something, and sometimes something you'd not normally try either, and the marks you get are obviously a measure of your own success

That success and growth in your work should really be a measure of your own progression regardless of others; so while marks are useful for you of your work, what others get shouldn't matter a damn - but to many it does and hence there are winners

The best part of entering any comp HAS to be the critique you receive from it, and not only crit of your work but others too so you can learn to improve through general principles and tips - this is something I focus on as much as possible

Personally, I'd be more than happy to be invited along to just comment on images and offer helpful pointers where I can without awarding any points or choosing any winners, but that's not what's being asked of me. The 'worst' comps I have judged have been those with so many images there's no time for much commentary at all. Sometimes this is a measure of how big & successful the club is so if 50 people enter there's nothing we can do about that really, with some smaller clubs I have suggested restricting the number of entries to allow for more time per image, and one recently has split their evening into two separate ones which is great

The short answer is that there is no answer that will fit all clubs and all members, but i strongly believe that club membership is a great way to enjoy & improve one's photography while also having a social event too with like-minded souls; after all, photography is largely a solitary hobby so its good to meet up with others - even TP members (sometimes) ;)

Dave
 
It's a shame @Pookeyhead seems to have left the building or I'm sure this would have been a much longer, and more entertaining, thread! :LOL:
 
Ed Sutton said:
It's a shame @Pookeyhead seems to have left the building or I'm sure this would have been a much longer, and more entertaining, thread! :LOL:
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Yep

After the slagging off I got from him where he challenged me to report him to the Mods - I did just that !!! But asked them NOT to ban him cos I think he's very knowledgeable, often has a point and is funny too

Seems he left of his own accord, or maybe he's skulking somewhere in the wings waiting to make his triumphant return (y)

Dave
 
I'm still wondering what the qualitative basis is behind a given mark on the 1-20 scale.. ;)
 
Alastair said:
I'm still wondering what the qualitative basis is behind a given mark on the 1-20 scale.. ;)
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I believe that was mentioned twice previously, but not in any specific scientific way - as there isn't any, nor is any guidance given to anyone by anyone at any level

Experience is the biggest factor in judging at club comp level, both of being a photographer and of seeing years of competitions

As unscientific as it is, it is very common for the club members (whether internally marked themselves collectively or externally using a single Judge) to agree that the best image wins on the day, or at the very least that the top 5 images are the top five, just not necessarily agreeing they are all in the right order :D

Having been a club member for over 15 years, seen and entered many many competitions I've still never seen anything like those images that caused the 'arty' argument a few weeks ago lol. Club comps are chiefly about the craft of photography, no-one is looking for deep & meaningful interpretations of a train, cat, plane, flower, landscape etc. at this level

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I believe that was mentioned twice previously, but not in any specific scientific way - as there isn't any, nor is any guidance given to anyone by anyone at any level
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So an 18 one day could be a 15 the next? That's what puzzle me.
 
Alastair said:
So an 18 one day could be a 15 the next? That's what puzzle me.
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Exactly it could - but why does that surprise you?

Once all the techie stuff is out of the way the subjective element comes in. Its no different to people loving any form of imagery or art or car or home or... when someone else doesn't

If an 18 was always an 18 then you'd just put photos through a marking program and that'd be it

Dave
 
Hi,

In my club we have two groups, Intermediate and Advanced. Up until last year marks were awarded on a scale of 1-10 for each group (competition was run in two separate sections), with the Intermediates usually being more leniently marked e.g. a 9 in Intermediate did not necessarily mean that the image would have got 9 in Advanced. Once you had a win (or got 10 points) in Intermediate you were automatically bumped up to Advanced, although you could ask the committee not to go up (next time you won/scored 10 you went up regardless). Trouble with this was that the Advanced group became top-heavy.

Now we still have the two groups, but all images compete in the same pool and are marked between 1 and 20. An outright 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, with the option of a HC, are awarded, then from the scores the intermediates also get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing. The judges are asked to provide a full range of marks, but often don't - the last competition we had, scores were between 15 and 20. Intermediates need to gain either 3 outright 1sts to 3rds or 3 x 20s over the season to move up to Advanced.

I use my marks to measure the growth in my work and have an internal competition with myself to gain a certain mark but IMO it can be a bit demoralising for the lower echelon of the intermediates to walk away always near the bottom of the mark table. On the other hand it does give a good opportunity to see where you stand against the top Advanced togs. I feel that my 'camera club' photography has definitely improved.
 
Carol S said:
Hi,

In my club we have two groups, Intermediate and Advanced. Up until last year marks were awarded on a scale of 1-10 for each group (competition was run in two separate sections), with the Intermediates usually being more leniently marked e.g. a 9 in Intermediate did not necessarily mean that the image would have got 9 in Advanced. Once you had a win (or got 10 points) in Intermediate you were automatically bumped up to Advanced, although you could ask the committee not to go up (next time you won/scored 10 you went up regardless). Trouble with this was that the Advanced group became top-heavy.

Now we still have the two groups, but all images compete in the same pool and are marked between 1 and 20. An outright 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, with the option of a HC, are awarded, then from the scores the intermediates also get a 1st, 2nd and 3rd placing. The judges are asked to provide a full range of marks, but often don't - the last competition we had, scores were between 15 and 20. Intermediates need to gain either 3 outright 1sts to 3rds or 3 x 20s over the season to move up to Advanced.

I use my marks to measure the growth in my work and have an internal competition with myself to gain a certain mark but IMO it can be a bit demoralising for the lower echelon of the intermediates to walk away always near the bottom of the mark table. On the other hand it does give a good opportunity to see where you stand against the top Advanced togs. I feel that my 'camera club' photography has definitely improved.
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thanks for posting Carol, some good points in there - glad you're enjoying your club and photography too :)

I've not known any club keep the Newbie/Advanced split for long so this is interesting :)

Dave
 
The judge we had last week was excellent; the competition was an Open Print (colour and mono sections) and in essence he deconstructed each image - composition, use of shapes to give strength, direction, form, light, tones, signifiers etc as well as more abstract feelings such as emotions and senses - and gave constructive critique - it was a workshop in itself. And I was really chuffed to win the mono section :) particularly as my images are not always ' camera club' style ...
 
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I scored 2 20's in the last Kidderminster Camera Club DPI competition so I'm quite happy about comps at the moment.

Least I've seen awarded is 12 in comps myself.

We also have a general and an advanced section.
 
In my local club, there are 5 monthly DPI completions, and one end of season Projected Image of the year.

There are separate competitions for colour and monochrome images, and there are two leagues for each. Each member can submit 2 photos in each category, and all are externally judged and the judges aren't announced in advance.

Points are awarded from 0-20. In the second league, it is quite common to get a few that score less than 10. In the first league, most of them generally score 14 and higher as they tend to be more accomplished/polished images, though there was a 4 and a 7 awarded a few years ago as the judge didn't like the subject material.

It is possible for more than 1 image to be awarded the top score of 20, but the judge will choose a 1st, 2nd and 3rd from these. More commonly, 1 image will get 20, 1 or 2 19 and 2 or 3 will get an 18.

For the image of the year, the photos submitted must be chosen from the ones already submitted for the monthly competitions. This gives members the chance to get a second opinion on some of their shots that they are either really pleased with, or thought deserved a higher score.

Critique is read out for each photo, but only the names of the first 3 are announced, the others just get their score and critique read out.

Recently they gave the judge a voice recorder, and he recorded his critique and it was played back alongside the images being projected on the screen. Most agreed it worked well, and in general the critique was more in depth and suggestions given for improvements as it didn't need to be written or typed

With 150 or so images each month, it does take a few hours to present them all along with the critique.
 
To add to the discussion, the PAGB standard for marking out of 5 - where 2 = doesn't meet the standard, 3 = achieves the standard, 4 = above the standard, 5 = wow is a method we have trialled for a while because in theory an image that gets 3 ought to achieve the same score regardless of which competition it is entered in. However that marking scheme depends on the judge knowing and understanding the PAGB strategy too, and not all do.

It's a minefield. I'm a camera club judge and like all judges a volunteer who puts their head above the parapet to try to provide an independent assessment of club images with critique. I am sure most judges try to give a fair critique and fair marks but you are never going to please everyone. So dont get too hung up on marks and winning leagues etc. Some clubs are so competitive it's unreal. Others are happy to have an outsider critique their work. Snide comments to judges are IMHO uncalled for and there are procedures to evaluate judges by clubs. Snide remarks are a sure way to reduce the number of judges willing to come sometimes long distances, spend an evening of their time, receiving a few pounds for fuel and a cup of tea at half time for their trouble. Competitions are the lifeblood of camera clubs. Perhaps those who think they can do a better job should volunteer their expert knowledge and stand in front of 30 or so people for an evening instead of skulking in the gloom of the audience.
 
Two more that have split level comps, that's interesting - I wonder why its working for you guys but didn't around here

Well done to Carol and Terry too - 2 20s is exceptional :)


Photodiva said:
Perhaps those who think they can do a better job should volunteer their expert knowledge and stand in front of 30 or so people for an evening instead of skulking in the gloom of the audience.
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Spoken like of Judge of some experience lol

But yes, there are plenty of people who are keen to slag off Judges hereabouts too yet none of them do put themselves forwards to do better

For my part, I was Comp Sec for a couple of years and repeatedly unhappy with some Judges I booked for their negative crit. It was too often 'this is wrong' 'that is wrong' with hardly ever a positive, which is harder for newbies to take and put some completely off entering. Then we had one who became known for never marking less than a 15 and extremely rarely giving a 20, so the best to worst spread over just 5 marks which was crazy. Hence I did indeed throw my hat into the ring and I'm loving it :)

The 'pay' is lousy but still far better than a night stuck in watching crap on telly :D

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
Two more that have split level comps, that's interesting - I wonder why its working for you guys but didn't around here
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Certainly the split level comps work for our club as we have some truly awesome Advanced members (some exhibit, some do well in external regional and national competitions, some get published - you get the picture) so if we had just one group the Intermediates for the most part would not get a look in at the top spots, which could be a bit demoralising. Our Intermediate section is made up of everyone who is not in Advanced (we don't have a Newbie section although this was discussed a while back) so having the Intermediate placings within the main comp (see my post above) gives people encouragement and a bit of a fillip which hopefully ignites (or reaffirms) a wish to learn and improve.

At the next possible meeting after each comp the pics of the top three Outright winners and the top three Intermediate winners are put up on the projector and the people who took them are encouraged to talk briefly on the story behind their pic, how they took it, what processing they did etc

We also have an awards evening at the end of each club year where both the top three outright placings and the top three Intermediate placings in each comp get a trophy and/or a certificate. Can make for a long evening but the ethos of our club is to be inclusive for everyone and not to have an elite group. In return our Advanced members are really helpful and often run mini-workshops on nights where we don't have a comp or an external speaker.

Going back to CC judges as I've gone off track rather, yes we do get the 'record' shot' put-down and recently we had the 'shouldn't be in a competition' comment. This latter was frowned upon as it was felt that this was really hurtful and could be really off-putting to someone, maybe a beginner, who had tried their best. The comment was true IMO but could have been worded better.

Juniors - we have a couple and the judge is advised beforehand which images are theirs so that comments can be more gentle.

Judge review - a couple of days after each comp the comp sec sends round a short survey (using Survey Monkey) for those who were present at the meeting.

If we have a long comp (each member can submit two images), we have a coffee break in the middle.

Dave (and any other judges on here) - out of interest do you use the 'Kiss, Slap, Kiss' critique method?
 
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Carol S said:
At the next possible meeting after each comp the pics of the top three Outright winners and the top three Intermediate winners are put up on the projector and the people who took them are encouraged to talk briefly on the story behind their pic, how they took it, what processing they did etc
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Excellent idea

Carol S said:
yes we do get the 'record' shot' put-down and recently we had the 'shouldn't be in a competition' comment.
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Grrr

Carol S said:
Dave (and any other judges on here) - out of interest do you use the 'Kiss, Slap, Kiss' critique method?
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Mine's more of a "Kiss, offer ideas for improvement, Kiss" approach as I don't like the 'slap' part :)

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
The best part of entering any comp HAS to be the critique you receive from it, and not only crit of your work but others too so you can learn to improve through general principles and tips...
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This, absolutely.
DG Phototraining said:
Two more that have split level comps, that's interesting - I wonder why its working for you guys but didn't around here
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At Maidenhead we have THREE classes for competitions: "Development", "Intermediate", and "Advanced" or "Open" or whatever it's called this month. I think that's evolved because it's quite a large club, around 100 members with a typical turnout of probably 60-70, and it seems to work OK. They're judged separately, and judges seem to find it quite easy to be a bit more lenient with the less experienced photographers, so an image which scores 19 in "Development" wouldn't necessarily score 19 in "Advanced".

We've experimented with scoring schemes over the years. Currently we use a simple 20-point scale. We used to have a 20-point scale with 1st/2nd/3rd being awarded explicitly, but it's always a bit awkward when someone scores 20 and finishes 4th, so that experiment didn't last very long. We also had a spell where we didn't ask for numerical scores, but asked judges to concentrate on the critique and just award 1st/2nd/3rd and commendations. But that wasn't popular, because quite a lot of members thought that marks were useful in gaining a measure of their progress, even if that measure was flawed and subjective.

So we're back to using a simple 20-point scale, which I think is the de facto standard in the Chilterns region. Judges are encouraged to use "a full range of marks", and as a club we would be positively delighted if a judge were brave enough to venture down into single figures. But most of them aren't. Some seem incapable of awarding marks of less than 15, which suggests they could be implicitly using the PAGB 5-point scale, but I've never heard of one actually saying that. I can think of one judge in particular who is consistently interesting and entertaining, and gives very good critique - as one would expect, since she chairs the RPS Visual Arts group - but she has a tendency to hand out 20s like sweets and I note that she isn't on the roster this year.

I scored a 10 once, and I'm very proud of it. (The image in question didn't deserve a 10, of course, but I think the judge found it somewhat repulsive and that coloured his assessment.) One of the guys in the club claims he once scored a 9, but the accuracy of his memory is questioned.
 
jbw said:
I sometimes hear the photo judge outline their criteria for marking - one of the best ones was marks out of 10 for technical competence ( exposure, focus, control of noise, no blown highlights, printing quality etc) and then an additional marks out of 10 for a more subjective assessment ( wow factor, story telling, breaking the 'rules', compositional quality, etc) - the marks are then added up to give a total score out of twenty.
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I've never judged at a Camera Club, but i'll hold my hands up and admit that for the POTY on here I was pressed into service as a "guest judge" on a few of the months when the regular judges were unable to perform the duty... And, the half "technical merit" , half "artistic acomplishment" approach was how I worked... I'd say it also led to some "interesting" differences in my marking compared to some of the other judges.

Basically, I gave every shot the 2 sets of marks, ranked the images on the totals - and, as we were preparing a "top 10" i'd use the art scores as having higher weight in final rankings - i.e. if 2 images got 15 points, one with 10/10 for technical 5/10 for artistic, and the other got 7/10 technically but 8/10 for artistic merit, then the second would get the nod... Because, ultimately, the technical stuff only really matters to other photographers - the rest of the world cares what the image looks like and says to them...
 
I think a lot of nepotism exists on the judging circuit, especially when you get out off the club competitions tot the next level where club images are then in federation and salon competitions. I also think that that level of juding is flawed where the judge makes a decision and gives a score in a matter of seconds and then moves on.
 
momoka said:
I also think that that level of juding is flawed where the judge makes a decision and gives a score in a matter of seconds and then moves on
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I'm not a fan of judging on the night either - but if you're given that job and only 20-30 secs per image as there's loads of entries what else can you, or the club, do?

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I'm not a fan of judging on the night either - but if you're given that job and only 20-30 secs per image as there's loads of entries what else can you, or the club, do?

Dave
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Yes, a difficulty task and can only be done where a score is to be given, not a place I think. I am talking about the bigger competitions where maybe 30 clubs all compete together. These judges are expected to score them within 5 secs normally. Many, many good images get marks down and many many bad images get marks up.

We were invited to a judging in Scotland near Stirling and witness this. On this occasion as well a particular image got a low score from the three judges. They were spoken to at the coffee brake time apparently by the organiser, who also happened to be a member of the club the image came from, and the scores were amended higher. The image went on to get an award. Talking to others it happens a lot and it is the same people winning on a regular basis. The infamous girl seemingly floating above cobblestone streets is much talked about apparently.
 
I'm on the committee of our local camera club - and we have competitions with external judges. As a starting member what helped me was the comments - as you say Dave. When a judge says - "well done for getting there at the right time, if you'd taken a step to the right then could you have changed the angle of the wall which would have helped the composition..." are the ones that really help me. Yes there's personal opinion and what one judge likes another will not.
We don't ask for scores - we ask for 1,2,3,4 and as many commended as the judge feels appropriate. Marks are given by the club in the yearly competition to judge the best in the club that year.
I encourage new members to submit so that they can learn - "If your image isnt selected for a place then no one knows who it is, but you get comments" is really valuable.
As long as we get a good judge then this works well. Where it doesn't is when a judge goes "Oh a cruise ship. Not really my thing. Bit of a record shot. Next" or even worse "poor light, poor choice of subject. next".

There's only a couple of people in the club who are really competitive so it works for us. What will happen if we get a number of good but competitive shooters is a different matter.

Interesting thread Dave - thanks
 
I am a member of a local club and I enjoy entering comps, not just for the competition but to hear the judges critiques on all the entries.

However, when I first started I was curious as to how much "Post Processing" of images was expected or even allowed.
It seems the answer to this is as varied as judges opinions on actual images.
For example, we had one judge who said of an image "You should clone this out, move this from here to there, do this & do that" - until you finished up with something that bore no resemblance to the original photo
Just recently it seems there is a trend towards more and more manipulation, compositing and special effects.
I've always thought that it should be about the photographic image, not how clever you are with Photoshop, Or maybe it's just my lack of skills with Photoshop?

As I've gained experience and know (in general) what judges look for in a photo, I now find myself taking images that I think will please a judge, rather than images that please ME.
They may be better images and may score higher in competition, but shouldn't we be taking images to please ourselves, rather than images to satisfy a judge?
 
Brian G said:
As I've gained experience and know (in general) what judges look for in a photo, I now find myself taking images that I think will please a judge, rather than images that please ME.
They may be better images and may score higher in competition, but shouldn't we be taking images to please ourselves, rather than images to satisfy a judge?
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Nobody is forcing you.
 
We use both out-of-ten and ranking at out club, depending on the specific competition. I enter but out of amusement rather than any great stock in the opinion of camera club level judges. I could list many of the usual criticisms, but I guess the main one is that as some-one who is very much focused on the single genre of wildlife, it's clear that the opinions of camera club judges and the upper echelons of wildlife photographers don't always align. And ultimately it's the latter I aspire to. Of course it's still nice when you get a ten, and sometimes a judge will point something out about a photo I'd overlooked, but I'll just shrug my shoulders if a judge simply doesn't like a particular photo.

In defence of judges, I do think open category competitions have an inherent level of apples-and-pears comparison that means any scoring is to some degree nonsense.
 
dancook said:
20 point system, 4 categories - composition, lighting, subject and.... technical? maybe something else.

Then people can see a break down, and see what might need to be improved to up theirs score.
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This looks very helpful.
 
A club I tried refused to even look at digital files, despite rules saying they could be entered in their own category. It meant anyone who could not afford big, high quality matted prints every week was left out totally, and embarrassed to not be able to afford to enter.
 
MidnightUK said:
A club I tried refused to even look at digital files, despite rules saying they could be entered in their own category. It meant anyone who could not afford big, high quality matted prints every week was left out totally, and embarrassed to not be able to afford to enter.
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Some are not all quite up-to-date it seems :(

I love The W's view that getting a high score is great but if he doesn't then its just the Judge at fault lol

In the YPU we get to say what subjects we're happy to judge based on personal preference, knowledge and experience and wildlife is one of those I won't judge

Dave
 
MidnightUK said:
A club I tried refused to even look at digital files, despite rules saying they could be entered in their own category. It meant anyone who could not afford big, high quality matted prints every week was left out totally, and embarrassed to not be able to afford to enter.
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I think there are other clubs that only do printed images as well. There is at least one club in the North West that is purely geared around external competitions I am lead to thinking.

Another point. When we produce images, either digital or printed, everything is calibrated and everything is checked with the daylights balanced lighting etc. I know some judges do the same when judging but I also know that not all do.
 
My club has 5 competitions a year and a couple of trophy nights and inter club comps, they're a mix of DPI and prints. The judges are external and scoring is up to 20. I've not been going there long, about a year. The lowest score I've seen given was 7 I think. Interestingly at the AGM some of the "better" members with exhibitions and lots of post nominals wanted to cut down on the number of comps whereas the less talented wanted more. The reason for wanting a reduction was the better togs felt you didn't learn as much from comps but the masses seem to enjoy them. External judges who get the images in advance is imho probably the best way to judge but the judges comments can be confusing or in some cases plain bonkers but it's better than doing a club vote. Another club I go to does that and whilst the best images usually win it is usually easy to say who took what just by looking at the styles used.
 
It certainly is the case that the 10-20 scale becomes compressed to (say) 12-20. In a waty this is reasonable because generally non of the entries will be below a basic competent level and so they desrve an OK mark.

What is important that judges adhere to a club standard in internal competitions which form part of league system. If you get a single who uses an atypically wide range of marks it can distort the overall results disproportionately.

And we must not forget that judges vary widely, I have one competition print which has scored 20, 9 and 17 in competitions all in the same year.It all depends on what they had for dinner and whan they last visited Specsavers.
 
Our club uses the 0-20 scoring system but I've never seen anything less than a 12 being given! The WPF I believe have been talking about changing to a 1st, 2nd, 3rd place as well highly commended and commended.

A lot of new members are put off by the judging so doing away with marks should then be more encouraging for them to take part.
 
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