Marking as a camera club Judge

[Brian G]

We had a club dpi comp this week and when one of my images came up the judge said "I like this, I like that, you've done such & such well" He was obviously running out of critique and eventually said "I'd crop it here" and indicated a really small crop off the bottom edge of the image with his light pointer.
To my mind, if the only thing you can find wrong with an image is that you don't like the crop, there's not much wrong with it.
I was awarded 16/20, which was the average score for the evening.
As a matter of interest, the winning shot (and the only 20) of the evening was a photo of somebody else's artwork.

 

[andyscott]

This is simple

0-10 and if people dont like it, they shouldnt enter. If you ask to be critiqued then have the balls to take it on the chin. Its only an opinion, and its only a photograph, it isnt a cure for cancer.

This is just another case of keeping everyone fluffy and happy, the world is a brutal place, suck it up buttercup.

 

[DG Phototraining]

This is simple

0-10 and if people dont like it, they shouldnt enter. If you ask to be critiqued then have the balls to take it on the chin. Its only an opinion, and its only a photograph, it isnt a cure for cancer.

This is just another case of keeping everyone fluffy and happy, the world is a brutal place, suck it up buttercup.

You'd not last long in a club with that attitude lol

I totally agree with you btw - but you'd leave a trail of broken sobbing togs with that approach

Dave

 

[andyscott]

You'd not last long in a club with that attitude lol

I totally agree with you btw - but you'd leave a trail of broken sobbing togs with that approach

Dave

Indeed haven't got time for these crackers, art is so hard to mark as it's always opinion.

Personally I think an unmade bed and half a cow to be a load of s***e, yet 'experts' say they are wonderful

It's the same in the wedding industry, you go to seminars and are talked to and told that the images you are looking at are fantastic. In fact a lot of them are poor.

Same as rules, oh her hand is in the wrong place etc, it grips my s***. Oh the telegraph pole is growing out of his head, no it isn't, you are a human and that never happens in life, it looks like it's behind his head, err because that's what it is doing.

 

[Photodiva]

Same as rules, oh her hand is in the wrong place etc, it grips my s***. Oh the telegraph pole is growing out of his head, no it isn't, you are a human and that never happens in life, it looks like it's behind his head, err because that's what it is doing.

And that's a reason why some images get poor marks. Composition is in the photographers control. Properly exposed and focussed images are in the photographers control. Happy snaps are not a substitute for good photographic technique.

 

[andyscott]

And that's a reason why some images get poor marks. Composition is in the photographers control. Properly exposed and focussed images are in the photographers control. Happy snaps are not a substitute for good photographic technique.

I agree but should it lead to poor marks
But those rules originated as someones opinion. Art cannot be defined by rules, this then changes it from Art.

What is proper expsosure?
What about an oof image? Can this also be correct when trying to convey mood?

And rules are just that, if rules can be broken, then they should be guidance not rules.

 

[Gaz J]

The clubs I am a member of both run 0-20. Each runs comps that are judged by judges on the panel of the Welsh Photographic Federation. Some are excellent and some not so great. Some won't drop below 15 and some will. Personally I think a full range of scores should be used. If you score 8 then, as long as the judge is constructive in hie crticism then you should learn from it. Generally the winner always gets 20.

The WPF have tried to push an alternative system of Gold, Silver, Bronze, highly commended but as most clubs have a photographer of the year award then the 0-20 system is easier for that. It hasn't been taken up by any club that I'm aware of.

Judges tend to be photographers who just put themselves forward and they get rated by the clubs on how they do. What I have found with some however is that once they become a judge they get a bit carried away and think that their opinion is the only one that counts within the club. One of the clubs uses the judge to pick images for external comps and he usually makes sure that his and his favoured few are selected.

Most have some photographic award or distinction LRPS, ARPS, AWPF, CPAGB, DPAGB, AFIAP etc but I don't feel that this makes them any more competent to judge than someone without them.

 

[Photodiva]

I agree but should it lead to poor marks
But those rules originated as someones opinion. Art cannot be defined by rules, this then changes it from Art.

What is proper expsosure?
What about an oof image? Can this also be correct when trying to convey mood?

And rules are just that, if rules can be broken, then they should be guidance not rules.

Proper exposure is no blown highlights or blocked shadows a fairly basic technical competency. Focus should be sharp or acceptably sharp where appropriate. It's also judged against whether it is a good example of its type.

Consider you might think yourself a good plumber with fancy bends in your pipes but if the joints leak and water cannot run uphill your pipe work doesn't pass muster.

 

[StephenM]

I agree but should it lead to poor marks
But those rules originated as someones opinion. Art cannot be defined by rules, this then changes it from Art.
And rules are just that, if rules can be broken, then they should be guidance not rules.

I don't recall "rules of composition" being mentioned - just whether the composition was good. I'm very much against the idea of rules, but not against the idea that a composition can be good or bad. Sometimes a good composition breaks most of the rules - but breaking the rules doesn't make it bad, any more than following them makes it good.

 

[TLR-330]

This seems daft. Someone could take a bloody good picture on auto. Or just as easily get something utterly terrible. Are both worth a 10?

What is wrong if a picture was taken on Auto if it is damn good?

On a separate note, and as a general comment, the idea of 10 on a range of 0/1 to 20 is a pass, below 10 is a fail. In a friendly club (which needs the members blah blah) do you really want to tell someone their photo(s) failed to meet a minimum standard to pass (i.e. to be judged). BTW. I am not in any club and I have even less interest in taking part in any competition.

 

[Ed Sutton]

What is wrong if a picture was taken on Auto if it is damn good?

How could anyone know it was taken on auto by looking at it?

 

[DG Phototraining]

What is wrong if a picture was taken on Auto if it is damn good?

On a separate note, and as a general comment, the idea of 10 on a range of 0/1 to 20 is a pass, below 10 is a fail. In a friendly club (which needs the members blah blah) do you really want to tell someone their photo(s) failed to meet a minimum standard to pass (i.e. to be judged). BTW. I am not in any club and I have even less interest in taking part in any competition.

On your first point - no-one knows and nor does it matter as you rightly suggest

On your second - no, a 10 is not a 'pass' and hence worthy of judging so below a 10 is not a 'fail'. Of the clubs that use 0-20 and consider 10 as a minimum mark to give they are really saying they expect their members to all be capable of a 10 at least, but if images are poor then of course they will get less than a 10. Anything submitted to a competition, if it adheres to the entry rules (which is the Comp Sec's job normally to decide upon), is worthy of judging

Dave

 

[DG Phototraining]

I don't recall "rules of composition" being mentioned - just whether the composition was good. I'm very much against the idea of rules, but not against the idea that a composition can be good or bad. Sometimes a good composition breaks most of the rules - but breaking the rules doesn't make it bad, any more than following them makes it good.

You are of course correct that there are no 'Rules', but if you enter a portrait comp and there's a lamppost appearing to 'grow out of someone's head' then unless it adds to & improves the image (which is unlikely in most cases) you'd be marked down for it for sloppy composition

Similarly in Wedding Photography, in a B&G session if your Groom's hand is on the Bride's shoulder you're almost certain to be marked down for that too as 'sloppy' work in any Pro competition

Dave

 

[andyscott]

Similarly in Wedding Photography, in a B&G session if your Groom's hand is on the Bride's shoulder you're almost certain to be marked down for that too as 'sloppy' work in any Pro competition

Dave

However this is just someones opinion and really a load of tosh, if the photo works it works. Is that the same if there are two Grooms

 

[andyscott]

Proper exposure is no blown highlights or blocked shadows a fairly basic technical competency. Focus should be sharp or acceptably sharp where appropriate. It's also judged against whether it is a good example of its type.

Consider you might think yourself a good plumber with fancy bends in your pipes but if the joints leak and water cannot run uphill your pipe work doesn't pass muster.

Bad analogy, plumbing is not an art form.

Cant you block some shadows for artistic creativity, or accept blown highlights if it adds to the drama?

 

[DG Phototraining]

Cant you block some shadows for artistic creativity, or accept blown highlights if it adds to the drama?

If it adds, then yes of course

Sometimes its just a consequence of having a very high dynamic range where the camera can't record everything, and while it may not add anything so long as it doesn't detract its still fine too

Dave

 

[andyscott]

However it would be marked down by some, such as Carol above.

Thats why entering the competition, you have to accept opinion and artistic taste, not rules.

 

[The W]

I love The W's view that getting a high score is great but if he doesn't then its just the Judge at fault lol

If during their critique, they point something out that I realise I'd not considered, then I take that on board. But a lot of the time photos get low scores because "it's jazz music and I listen to classical."

In the first round of our competition, I scored a 10 and 9.5 which meant I was leading. However I tanked the second round with a 7 and 7.5. One of the images was a photo I'd recently taken on a specialist photo trip to Yellowstone. It just so happened that the following week, the guy who lead the tour was at the club to give a talk. At one point he put up an image that lo-and-behold was near identical to the one that judge have a 7. (ie. he took it while we were stood near each other, and close enough it would have had the same comments and scored the same). I'm going to go with his opinion over the judges!

The 7 pointer was my own fault. I was in a rush and I put in an airshow photo, and airshow photos never score anything but terribly. Unless it's Yet Another Photo of the Red Arrows.

 

[StephenM]

You are of course correct that there are no 'Rules', but if you enter a portrait comp and there's a lamppost appearing to 'grow out of someone's head' then unless it adds to & improves the image (which is unlikely in most cases) you'd be marked down for it for sloppy composition

I fully agree - but I was merely pointing out that there are no rules that have to be followed. In the case you give, a lamppost with not reason for growing out of a head, that's bad composition. A "rule" that said "never have a lamppost growing out of a head" which was ignored for a valid reason and then marked down would fall under my idea of slavishly following rules.

The point I was picking up on was the assumption that there are rules to good composition. In a sense, I believe that there are, but they derive from the psychology of seeing etc. and aren't the "rule of thirds" type.

 

[Brian G]

In my opinion the 20 scale is pointless if the marks run between 12 & 20, as they always seem to.
You might just as well mark from 2 to 10, except the more sensitive souls might be upset by a 2, whereas 12 doesn't feel as bad.
Low marks are acceptable, provided there is a constructive critique on the reasons why.
What I find annoying is when a judge can find nothing to criticize and yet still awards a low to average mark.

 

[blakester]

The camera club I am a member of have the judges mark out of 10 as per how our competitions are run/scored.
To my knowledge, no judges are 'briefed' on how low they can score, its at their discretion. I have seen scores as low as 3 before.

Ours are cumulative competitions, one can enter up to three images/prints, the lowest score of the three doesn't count in the overall competition, it goes as a tie break should the event arise at the end of the year.
Therefore, a low mark doesn't hurt a persons score too much, there is some leeway.

As @Brian G mentioned above, a judge finding nothing to criticize yet still awards a low to average mark, I would guess this is where a judge can use their discretion and allow personal taste to factor in.
Receiving no crit yet still an average mark would suggest perhaps that the image is a bit 'meh!' for want of a better expression. If an image is technically correct but ultimately boring I can see how it would attract an average mark.

 

[andyscott]

The camera club I am a member of have the judges mark out of 10 as per how our competitions are run/scored.
To my knowledge, no judges are 'briefed' on how low they can score, its at their discretion. I have seen scores as low as 3 before.

Ours are cumulative competitions, one can enter up to three images/prints, the lowest score of the three doesn't count in the overall competition, it goes as a tie break should the event arise at the end of the year.
Therefore, a low mark doesn't hurt a persons score too much, there is some leeway.

As @Brian G mentioned above, a judge finding nothing to criticize yet still awards a low to average mark, I would guess this is where a judge can use their discretion and allow personal taste to factor in.
Receiving no crit yet still an average mark would suggest perhaps that the image is a bit 'meh!' for want of a better expression. If an image is technically correct but ultimately boring I can see how it would attract an average mark.

But what makes 1 and what makes 10? There must be some guidance, or pointless having a score.

Or are we saying well personally I like this image alot so I will pick a random number between 7 and 10. Oh I dont really like the image, so it gets a 2, because 1 is hate it?

 

[DG Phototraining]

Lots of good comments & ideas in here guys & gals, thanks for that

I guess we're all highlighting what makes judging in a quantitative way so hard as ultimately ones own experience, knowledge and preferences can make a significant difference to the scores an image gets

An expert in portraiture may be considered overly harsh on some portrait images as they are looking for a level of quality above many club members who only occasionally shoot portraits, yet give 'generous' marks to wildlife images if they love birds but have no experience of shooting wildlife; and the creative use of composites is a minefield

Hard innit

Dave

 

[blakester]

But what makes 1 and what makes 10? There must be some guidance, or pointless having a score.

Or are we saying well personally I like this image alot so I will pick a random number between 7 and 10. Oh I dont really like the image, so it gets a 2, because 1 is hate it?

It's not and never can be a quantitive subject IMHO. I'm not a judge, this is my opinion on how I would perhaps score images. Have a baseline score for something which is technically correct then keep a little back for artistic merit (personal opinion/tastes). One has to trust the judges er... judgement. The human element can never be taken away so personal taste will no doubt figure in some way or another.
It would be so difficult to run competitions without having a scoring/marking system.
I have been on the wrong end of a judges score again IMHO but that's the way it goes.

 

[gerry s]

I still see no reason why a club should dictate how it wants images scored.. surely it devalues the whole thing. there must be some way of standardising it. Obviously different judges have different preferences, I'm certainly not saying there should be `rules` as I'm sure we don't need any more of those but surely some way of having say 5 for technical ability, 5 for artistic ability/content, 10 for colour of mount ..... or whatever mix of mark you want and then just accept that is judge has their own criteria as a part of it.
Its no good giving somebody 12 out of 20 if their image is awful but you don't want to upset them as that just makes a mockery of the whole thing.

 

[andyscott]

It's not and never can be a quantitive subject IMHO. I'm not a judge, this is my opinion on how I would perhaps score images. Have a baseline score for something which is technically correct then keep a little back for artistic merit

Indeed but technically is also subjective, what makes it correct? In focus etc, well what if its not designed to be.

 

[User.82148]

Why are most camera/photography clubs so into competitions? I can understand that you may learn from the process but there are other ways, but for someone whose day job is competitive I do not really want to join a club that is based on yet more competition where ultimately the judging is subjective. I pity and respect the judges who put themselves forward for such work as in many ways it seems a no-win situation.

 

[Brian G]

Indeed but technically is also subjective, what makes it correct? In focus etc, well what if its not designed to be.

I had an image that I thought was good, an action shot, but one in which the main subject is not in sharp focus.
I agonised for ages about entering it into competition when it was not technically perfect.
In the end I submitted it, expecting to be marked down technically.
Result - the judge loved it and I scored 20/20 and no mention of any technical imperfections.
So, in the case of this particular judge, the image was the most important thing.

As has been said many times, nothing is absolute and the judges opinions are just opinions, and a different judge may have a different opinion.

 

[DG Phototraining]

Why are most camera/photography clubs so into competitions? I can understand that you may learn from the process but there are other ways, but for someone whose day job is competitive I do not really want to join a club that is based on yet more competition where ultimately the judging is subjective. I pity and respect the judges who put themselves forward for such work as in many ways it seems a no-win situation.

I helped start a club a couple of years back where the main selling point was NO COMPS !!! Within 12 months it was Barnsley's largest club with over 50 members, and a poll a year on confirmed they still wanted no comps - there's a market for clubs like that

Dave

 

[momoka]

I helped start a club a couple of years back where the main selling point was NO COMPS !!! Within 12 months it was Barnsley's largest club with over 50 members, and a poll a year on confirmed they still wanted no comps - there's a market for clubs like that

Dave

Indeed. There are a handful of the bigger clubs that try and cater for both, having multiple nights per week for different meetings etc.

 

[Nostromo]

It depends on your mind set. I don't mind comps, it's a bit of fun. If the judge doesn't score me high, so be it, it's their view, i don't take it to heart. I'll listen to their critique take it on board and move on.

 

[cargo]

Good read this.It's good to heare about othere clubs and what goes on. I have only been to this one club and stayed. Not sure how that happened as on my first night it was a room full of folk veiwing projected dpi's. It felt like an age them 2 hours "real bored" and felt like I must of stepped back in time. Not that I knew anything. I had been happily snapping away and using Flickr to share my photos. I commented on a guys photo (via Flickr) and asked how he took it he answered "at the camera club you should come down and try it out" Camera club photos are some what different than what I had been taking though or it felt that way in my head. Although shy by nature I pushed myself to go back and have stuck with it.I must say they are a real great set of people we all get along very well.
Yes we do have comps Quarterly and at the end of the year there is a trophy for dpi and prints. Scoring is out of twenty like seems the norm here,most score between 14 and 20 my mind maybe playing tricks with me but once there may have been a 12 but somehow I think I would have remembered it. Not sure if the judges are told how low they can score I would have thought not though as I am sure I would know. We have a 1st =20points 2nd=19 3rd 18 that said quite often we get a lot of 18s and a tie for 20. Our comps are all open so images can be of any subject and yes you are correct over the time I have been there you can tell most of the time whom as took the image.
Not sure if we can name clubs so left it out.


Gaz

 

[Photodiva]

Its down to personal taste, but I know my photography improved by entering competitions or submitting to exhibitions. If you want to pursue professional Distinctions you will be judged on technical competency as well as creative vision. You cannot blag your way saying "what if the highlights are blown? I meant to". At the end of the day if YOU like your work, then hang it on your wall and enjoy it.

 

[Photodiva]

If it adds, then yes of course

Sometimes its just a consequence of having a very high dynamic range where the camera can't record everything, and while it may not add anything so long as it doesn't detract its still fine too

Dave

And that's why you learn how to control that situation with your camera. AEB? Filters? A small bit of blown in an otherwise super image would not damn it. But it might score 19 rather than 20!

 

[steelydan]

Our club had the same dilemma last year and we opted for the following

Total 20 Points

Exposure = 5 points
Sharpness = 5 points
Composition = 5 Points
Impact = 5 points

Others nationally go for the following

Score from 20 points

1-4 Seldom Used
5-8 Image below average
9-12 Average image
13-16 Image above average
17-20 Image way above average

 

[sirch]

Sharpness = 5 points

Really?

Sharpness?

I mean really?

Sharpness counts for as much as composition and impact? I can take a well exposed sharp photo composed by the rule of thirds that has no "impact" and get the same score as this

 

[Quicksnapper]

What an Interesting read everyone. I'm the Comp Sec of a club which has quarterly comps, as well as external events against neighbouring clubs. Two of our quarterly comps are themed and two open. Members are allowed to enter three images, they are marked out of 20 (with no set minimum) and the winner on the night is the member with the highest cumulative score out of a possible 60. We can enter either prints or DPIs and all are marked as one event, with everyone competing equally and anonymously. Our members range in age from 8 to over 80 and are generally a great bunch. We don't tip our judges the wink when an image by our 8 year old member is displayed (both her parents are also members) and she was the only member who scored the coveted 20 at our last event!!

We use PAGB judges and they do vary enormously in their style, but, as a general rule, we generally receive fair and consistent critique, and marking, from them all and it is that feedback which makes our competition events so popular with all of our members. As Comp Sec, it is my job to book judges and I am always enormously grateful to them for giving us their time and often for travelling quite long distances to attend.

The issue with marking which does cause us a grumble or two is in the marking of external / inter club events. We select images for these events from the highest scoring images in the previous 12 months' internals. Hence they are competing against the best of the best from our own efforts and those of the other club (or clubs, as we have one tripartite event annually) which essentially means they have to stand up to comparison at that level. We often see, therefore, an image which scored 19 or 20 at club level, get marked as a 15 or 16 in an external under the critique of a different judge, against better quality opposition.

As a general rule, though, I don't think anyone at my club has any issue with any judge as long as their approach is seen as both consistent and fair. Some judges are notable low scorers, whilst others are more generous. There is always going to be a case where the judge just didn't "get" an image, or what the author was trying to achieve, but that's life in an event where a lot of the score is given for artistic merit as well as technical aspects. The whole point is to get an independent view of your work and to compare it fairly against that of others in a friendly environment, so as to try to do better in future. I know my own work has improved as a direct result of entering comps and I will continue to do so in the hope, one day, of achieving that coveted 20 .......

In conclusion ... thank you Dave for getting out there, being a judge, taking the flak and handing out praise where its due. Without you, and your fellows, we wouldn't be able to run our events for the good of all our members. Good for you and long may you continue.

 

[Byker28i]

Went to a local club a few times. Judging seemed to be based on technicalities, rule of thirds, over sharpened, over saturated, pretty images. One entry, part of a series, I found really interesting, thoughtful, but was slated because it didn't fit their idea of the perfect, colourful landscape calendar type image.
There was also favouritism, so and so had the best kit, often won, so was expected to do well, always placed etc.
So difficult time for the judge, guess it depends on the club and the clubs aims

 

[DG Phototraining]

What an Interesting read everyone. I'm the Comp Sec of a club which has quarterly comps, as well as external events against neighbouring clubs. Two of our quarterly comps are themed and two open. Members are allowed to enter three images, they are marked out of 20 (with no set minimum) and the winner on the night is the member with the highest cumulative score out of a possible 60. We can enter either prints or DPIs and all are marked as one event, with everyone competing equally and anonymously. Our members range in age from 8 to over 80 and are generally a great bunch. We don't tip our judges the wink when an image by our 8 year old member is displayed (both her parents are also members) and she was the only member who scored the coveted 20 at our last event!!

We use PAGB judges and they do vary enormously in their style, but, as a general rule, we generally receive fair and consistent critique, and marking, from them all and it is that feedback which makes our competition events so popular with all of our members. As Comp Sec, it is my job to book judges and I am always enormously grateful to them for giving us their time and often for travelling quite long distances to attend.

The issue with marking which does cause us a grumble or two is in the marking of external / inter club events. We select images for these events from the highest scoring images in the previous 12 months' internals. Hence they are competing against the best of the best from our own efforts and those of the other club (or clubs, as we have one tripartite event annually) which essentially means they have to stand up to comparison at that level. We often see, therefore, an image which scored 19 or 20 at club level, get marked as a 15 or 16 in an external under the critique of a different judge, against better quality opposition.

As a general rule, though, I don't think anyone at my club has any issue with any judge as long as their approach is seen as both consistent and fair. Some judges are notable low scorers, whilst others are more generous. There is always going to be a case where the judge just didn't "get" an image, or what the author was trying to achieve, but that's life in an event where a lot of the score is given for artistic merit as well as technical aspects. The whole point is to get an independent view of your work and to compare it fairly against that of others in a friendly environment, so as to try to do better in future. I know my own work has improved as a direct result of entering comps and I will continue to do so in the hope, one day, of achieving that coveted 20 .......

In conclusion ... thank you Dave for getting out there, being a judge, taking the flak and handing out praise where its due. Without you, and your fellows, we wouldn't be able to run our events for the good of all our members. Good for you and long may you continue.

Nice to hear from another Comp Sec, and pretty much echoing my days as a Comp Sec too

I'm actually pushing for something more radical hereabouts - a ranking of Judges so Comp Secs can, over time, see who is good and who not so, then (hopefully) if a Judge gets a few less than favourable results they can be retrained or retired

I see the role as being very much trying to help the club & its members, and its the comments for improvement or hints & tips I can pass on that are potentially more useful than the mark

Dave

 

[Quicksnapper]

Nice to hear from another Comp Sec, and pretty much echoing my days as a Comp Sec too

I'm actually pushing for something more radical hereabouts - a ranking of Judges so Comp Secs can, over time, see who is good and who not so, then (hopefully) if a Judge gets a few less than favourable results they can be retrained or retired

I see the role as being very much trying to help the club & its members, and its the comments for improvement or hints & tips I can pass on that are potentially more useful than the mark

Dave

That would be a very good idea in theory, but I have reservations in practice. In reality, as a club we do keep anecdotal comments about each judge we use - some good and some bad - and swap our opinions with other clubs in the area to see if they agree with us that so-and-so is god/bad/indifferent. This season I've booked 8 judges for various things of which 6 are completely new faces, as I think it's a good thing to mix it up a bit, get fresh perspectives and new thoughts. The problem with your idea of ranking judges, is that some clubs would rank a judge as poor if the key members of said club didn't agree with that person's scoring. We have one individual who judges for us who is renowned for his acerbic comments and "honesty" .... For example, he once judged and image of mine with a huge sigh and the comment "Some people really do know how to ruin a good picture....!!" He still gave it 17 out of 20, however, acknowledging the quality of the image whilst not liking the way I'd processed it.

This guy would be ranked pretty lowly I'm guessing, even though he is a person of some standing in the photography world. He's just honest!

But getting back to the scoring issue. I totally disagree with the assertion that scoring 1 - 10 is the same as scoring 10 - 20, thus 1 out of 10 is the same as 10 out of 20. it's not, of course, because 10 is a half way point, hence 5 out of 10 would be the equivalent.

Actually, I think the mark given is extremely useful. The first comp I ever entered I got 12 and two 14's out of 20 for my images: I now regularly score 17-19. As such, I feel I'm competing against myself as much as the other members and see the improved averages over time as an indication that my work is improving (which is what it's all about).

Also, if someone has taken the trouble to enter, they've a) had the guts to put themselves out there for critique, b) taken the trouble to support a club event, c) produced the best work they can on the day d) gone to some effort (and expense in the case of printed work) to produce their images e) shown the club and judge enough respect to listen to the outcomes of all of that and improve. In short, they've given it their best shot .....

Taking a - e into account, giving someone 1 out of 10 is psychologically bad news. It says "not good enough", "the worst of the bunch", "loser...!" ... and does nothing to encourage them to enter next time or get better. Giving them 10 out of 20 says "good try", "this has some merit although it could be made better", "not a winner, but you're getting there".

Therefore, I'm a huge advocate of the 1 - 20 scoring system and giving a mark to every image. I'd hate to have my work critiqued at a club where they just do first, second and third and a couple of commended images. That leaves everyone else in the dark about any sort of comparison on how good their work actually is or if they're making any improvement. In reality, our judges do generally only award one or two 20's so the cream usually does rise to the top, but at least everyone else has something to aim at.

We have a comp this evening with 81 entries - a roughly 50:50 split between prints and DPIs - if we only gave half a dozen of those any kind of recognition and branded the rest as "also rans" our members would soon lose interest. As it is, they'll all be vying to beat the dozen or so people who generally win out and will have a clear idea of how they did when judged against the best in the club.