Marking as a camera club Judge

I'm not a member of a camera club; all the ones locally to me are heavily into competitions which I think are a bad idea. Hence I'm doubly disqualified from commenting in this thread. However...

I still fail to see how getting 1 out of 10 is equivalent to "loser, worst of the bunch" and getting 10 out of 20 when everyone knows that 10 is the lowest mark you can get says anything different to that - at least to a thinking person. The lowest possible mark is still the lowest possible mark, however much you dress it up.

I also can't see how just knowing a bare mark helps you to improve without comments from the judge on why it was given. And if comments are made, I can't see why a mark is required to stimulate improvement. Knowing why a low mark was given at least lets the entrant know the reasons, and gives the opportunity to consider that the reasons are invalid because the judge missed the point and therefore the mark can be ignored.
 
Interesting again - the spread of people wanting marks to not wanting marks, as well as give a full 0-20 range or nothing below a 10, with each area/club having their own views, just shows how hard this is to get it right

There are for & against reasons for each point of view

I can't see the point on keeping and sharing tabs on Judges secretly though. Tell the regional sec and let them collate, the odd erroneous poor mark would be ignored but a series of poor ratings says the Judge is probably poor and needs a chat from on high

I was shocked at our regional meeting recently to discover that although the region encourages clubs to file Judge's Reports that a) the region does nothing with them, and b) half of the Judges at that meeting didn't want to see them either! That seems crazy to me on both counts

Dave
 
The club I attended started with what do we want from a competition.
Consensus was to gain knowledge.
System was speaker to explain / demonstrate a technique linked to a theme.
We meet every second week.
For the next meeting members presented a digital shot using the techniques from previous meeting.
No identity given photos projected and all members voted by secret ballot
Photographs again projected and the owner explained what they did or tried to do. Other members commented on the shot and explained their thoughts on the shot good or bad
Results given 1,2,3. A member who is a judge gave his comments on top three and on occasion others he thought worthy of merit.
I found the system worthwhile as you were really just reinforcing what you had learnt. The feedback to the whole group was interesting and new/other viewpoints gained.
The experts did not always come out top as the topics techniques changed and may not have suited their favourite methodology.
The trainer also got feedback on what gaps needed filling in his presentation.
These competitions were seen as fun events to assist in learning which we felt was the purpose of the club.
We ( some members) did enter outside formal competitions in the area to give an idea how our work stacked up outside our group.

We only had one member who was very competitive and he looked forward to his favourite skill with the expectation of winning.

Completely different to most others but we feel the club was a teaching instrument rather than a judging platform.
Prizes; complementary comments from your friends and fellow learners.
Results were an increase in the standard of work and drop out from egotistical members who already knew it all and did not want to feed their real or imagined knowledge to the club


Just my experience.
 
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This thread has proved an interesting read, echoing as it does the widely varying views of the members of both clubs I belong to, however, I do think that we should not lose sight of the fact that we join clubs for fun and fellowship with like minded hobbyists and shouldn't get too screwed up about judging which, as all have agreed, is very subjective.
 
Clactonian said:
This thread has proved an interesting read, echoing as it does the widely varying views of the members of both clubs I belong to, however, I do think that we should not lose sight of the fact that we join clubs for fun and fellowship with like minded hobbyists and shouldn't get too screwed up about judging which, as all have agreed, is very subjective.
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Just stumbled across the thread and it is a very interesting discussion,

Mike, I think you are spot on with your comment. To many people take it all to serious.

I am the Competition Secretary in our club we score in the range 10-20 but the images are actually judged by the members present on the evening. The reason for this is to try and get everyone to particpate and when we do the critique to get everyone involved in the discussion/debate around an image the merits of an image and how it could be improved.

One of the issues is some people can't take critique of their image and see it as an attack on their work, until you get thick skinned to comments given by judges or camera club members, wou will always have difficulty with the Camera Club environment. You should take on board comments given by a judge or other members, although it doesn;t necessraily mean you have to do what they say as at the end of the day the image/work is yours and should be produced for your own satisfaction not for that of a judge or others.
Judges will always have some form of subconscious bias regrdless of how hard they try to be impartial, and as a photographer you need to learn not to take comments personally and view them as a learning opportunity.

I think what Camera Club members mainly want to see from a judge is consistency in judging, as an example we had the same image represent our club in a local, regional and national competition recently. On the Saturday the image scored 12/20, on the Sunday in front of 3 PAGB judges it scored 14/15, and on the Tuesday it scored 20/20. I guess you can work out which competition provoked the most comment about the judging? This example shows the highs and lows of putting your images up to be judged, it is just a case of don't take the comments/results personally and move on to the next.

Dave, for interest the WPF has introduced a rating system on their judges, see http://thewpf.co.uk/?page_id=6616
 
StephenM said:
I'm not a member of a camera club; all the ones locally to me are heavily into competitions which I think are a bad idea. Hence I'm doubly disqualified from commenting in this thread. However...

I still fail to see how getting 1 out of 10 is equivalent to "loser, worst of the bunch" and getting 10 out of 20 when everyone knows that 10 is the lowest mark you can get says anything different to that - at least to a thinking person. The lowest possible mark is still the lowest possible mark, however much you dress it up.

I also can't see how just knowing a bare mark helps you to improve without comments from the judge on why it was given. And if comments are made, I can't see why a mark is required to stimulate improvement. Knowing why a low mark was given at least lets the entrant know the reasons, and gives the opportunity to consider that the reasons are invalid because the judge missed the point and therefore the mark can be ignored.
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It's because, when marking out of 20, rather than 10, we (as a club) don't direct judges at all in the use of the range of scores. We did have a judge who scored images as low as 7 out of 20 on one occasion, as he thought the work was pretty poor compared to other work in the same set. Fair enough ... that's why he's there and he was right on this occasion !!! We have never had anyone get 1 out of 20, but it could happen.

Again you're right - just having a judge look at an image and give it a score out of 10 or 20 with out commenting, and then move on to the next one, is a pointless exercise. It's the verbal critique supplied with the score which is a factor for improvement, and not just for the author of the image on show, but for everyone else present. Remember, the images are all unknown to both the judge and the gathered audience and both are seeing them for the first time. So during a competition judging, everyone present forms their own opinions of the image as seen and it's interesting to observe how often the judges words match ones own thoughts on each image as the process proceeds.

Similarly, just having a judge critique an image and NOT give it a score of some sort, leaves the author hanging somewhat. OK, the judge liked this about it but thought that could be better, but how does it compare to a similar image by someone else, who received similar comments? Knowing that your image was worth 15 out of 20, but the other guy's image was worth 12 out of 20 gives you a firm reference point from which to to work.

To me, it's the combination of the critique AND the score which give people a feel for how their images stack up against the others on show at that event.

Remember, when people enter images in a club competition, they are putting their best work forward, not deliberately trotting out a technically shoddy, poorly composed piece of junk. Giving SOME marks, even though it may be a low mark, does, at least, acknowledge that the person has made the effort and given it their best shot.

Throughout all of the judging I've witnessed over the years, I have never seen a judge who deliberately damns someones work. They always try to find something to comment upon positively, even if they go on to criticise the technical aspects, composition etc. Taking away 10 marks out of twenty, and some useful comments from a more experienced person upon which to base ones future efforts to improve, is a better way to judge at club level, than sending everyone home disheartened and discouraged.
 
The two major points I'd pick up on are:

1. I honestly don't think it should matter a jot how you measure up against another photographer as I don't think photography is a competitive sport. I know that others disagree, and that's why they want competitions... Just knowing where and why someone thinks you can do better should be enough.

2. I dislike intensely the idea that the judge has the images sprung on him, and has to make an instant assessment. This is a good way of promoting style over substance, impact over lasting merit. It's not possible to give meaningful critique in my experience in that way; some points need to be looked at carefully and the instant appraisal defeats that.

So, apologies, but competitions in general are not for me, and especially ones where the judges are hamstrung at the start.

I'm out of this, as I'm well aware that my opinions aren't relevant to the thread.
 
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DG Phototraining said:
I'm actually pushing for something more radical hereabouts - a ranking of Judges so Comp Secs can, over time, see who is good and who not so, then (hopefully) if a Judge gets a few less than favourable results they can be retrained or retired

Dave
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I've only ever been to one competition (by accident) and really annoyed the judge - she asked if I wanted feedback and I said no, as there's no statistical significance in one person's thoughts on an image. I hoped she liked it, but it's irrelevant in the great scheme of things.

We spent a while discussing some of the published methods for judging subjective image quality.
 
This week I've acted as a camera club Judge twice, with very positive results :)

One club President wrote to me saying - "You did a brilliant job! The comments and constructive feedback were very much appreciated by all members" - and I've been asked if I do lectures too for them

Last nights went further (it was a Portrait Comp) where the President said it was their 'best ever' judging and advice evening, then collectively I was asked if I do workshops, individual training by some and lectures too :)

Great, and yet this contrasts with one club last week where I received criticism for being 'too expert' in two fields and hence they felt overly critical by giving low marks to some images I thought were just not very good lol

Can't win 'em all can you :D

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I received criticism for being 'too expert'
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Like Len and Craig on strictly! Far better IMO to be honest even if it hurts as long as you can explain why an effort (into which someone may have put their heart and soul!) deserves a low mark.
 
I've only skimmed the thread but how about anonymous submission so nobody knows who the image belongs to?

Two classes are needed really. Beginner and advanced. Mark beginner out of 50 and when they get 40+ consistently they are moved into the next group and that's marked out of 100. Gives plenty of opportunity to spread scores more fairly too.
 
srichards said:
I've only skimmed the thread but how about anonymous submission so nobody knows who the image belongs to?
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That's the way it happens at our club.
The judge is from outside the club and the images are submitted anonymously.

srichards said:
Two classes are needed really. Beginner and advanced. Mark beginner out of 50 and when they get 40+ consistently they are moved into the next group and that's marked out of 100. Gives plenty of opportunity to spread scores more fairly too.
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We have a similar system, two classes, but the images are scored out of 20.
The points are added up over the season and the winner of class 2 gets promoted to class 1.
Mind you, nobody ever gets demoted from class 1 because of consistently poor marks.

Why does marking out of 50 or 100 ensure the scores are fairer?
To my mind scoring out of 20 is a waste if the scores are nearly all in the 15 to 18 range and are never below 10.
As others have said, the analysis and critique is more important than the actual score, but dealing out 16 after 16 without constructive comments is wasting everybody's time.
 
Brian G said:
To my mind scoring out of 20 is a waste if the scores are nearly all in the 15 to 18 range and are never below 10.
As others have said, the analysis and critique is more important than the actual score, but dealing out 16 after 16 without constructive comments is wasting everybody's time.
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Totally :agree:

I Judged a local club's Portrait Comp last week where I'd realised looking at their images that no-one there was very good at portraits, and that they'd obviously had at least one 'Club portrait night' in-house as 7 images were the same person in the same studio setting, which had been led by someone who knew very little either. So I pretty much gave an instructional talk on Portraiture in general using their photos to show areas where it'd worked and what needed improvement. I received this comment in the report they sent in to the YPU ust two days later...

“David gave us tips advice on all aspects of Portrait Photograph for all images that were submitted in our Portrait Competition. David is one of best judges that we have invited to our camera club.”

Being able to pass on hints & tips and enthuse is why I became a Judge - they've also asked me to put on a Portrait night for them next year too :)

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
Totally :agree:

I Judged a local club's Portrait Comp last week where I'd realised looking at their images that no-one there was very good at portraits, and that they'd obviously had at least one 'Club portrait night' in-house as 7 images were the same person in the same studio setting, which had been led by someone who knew very little either. So I pretty much gave an instructional talk on Portraiture in general using their photos to show areas where it'd worked and what needed improvement. I received this comment in the report they sent in to the YPU ust two days later...

“David gave us tips advice on all aspects of Portrait Photograph for all images that were submitted in our Portrait Competition. David is one of best judges that we have invited to our camera club.”

Being able to pass on hints & tips and enthuse is why I became a Judge - they've also asked me to put on a Portrait night for them next year too :)

Dave
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Sounds good to me. Where are you based Dave, I'm looking for people for next season?

(See also my thread on panel comps ..... :))
 
Were I ever to join a club again, I would far rather have appraisal and criticism from a respected photographer or Artist, and with feed back from the audience, than a competition.
I would be quite happy for one photograph to be singled out as the best on show.

Going back to my student days, every Friday afternoon the entire department was gathered. (all years) and we had to put up at least one new work for criticism by all comers. we were also expected to defend our work. This is far more like the real life situation between Photographer and client. It is also a fantastic incentive to improve and to only show your best work.
 
Quicksnapper said:
Sounds good to me. Where are you based Dave, I'm looking for people for next season?

(See also my thread on panel comps ..... :))
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South Derbyshire sounds a bit far I'm afraid, Derby is about 60 miles so south of that is too far

'panel comps' ??? I've not seen that, I'll look for the link later - lunchtime now = FOOD as the priority lol :D

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
South Derbyshire sounds a bit far I'm afraid, Derby is about 60 miles so south of that is too far

'panel comps' ??? I've not seen that, I'll look for the link later - lunchtime now = FOOD as the priority lol :D

Dave
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:ty:

... worth asking anyway ....
 
DG Phototraining said:
Totally :agree:

I Judged a local club's Portrait Comp last week where I'd realised looking at their images that no-one there was very good at portraits, and that they'd obviously had at least one 'Club portrait night' in-house as 7 images were the same person in the same studio setting, which had been led by someone who knew very little either. So I pretty much gave an instructional talk on Portraiture in general using their photos to show areas where it'd worked and what needed improvement. I received this comment in the report they sent in to the YPU ust two days later...

“David gave us tips advice on all aspects of Portrait Photograph for all images that were submitted in our Portrait Competition. David is one of best judges that we have invited to our camera club.”

Being able to pass on hints & tips and enthuse is why I became a Judge - they've also asked me to put on a Portrait night for them next year too :)

Dave
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All credit to you on that.
 
Well, I was going to start a new thread but will try this here. I have been in a camera club for a couple of years now. I did an LRPS and realised how much I had to learn. I watched competitions whilst working away at then walking away from two 'marmite' ARPS panels. I had quite a pressured, competitive life as an Assistant Headteacher so I only started to think about other sources of competitive 'buzz' once I had retired. At the same time, injuries saw my sporting activities severely limited. In the first year I entered one competition. In my second full year, I joined the club committee. I found the knowledge and support of members who helped me get to grips with Software like Lightroom and PS invaluable. I entered 3 of 4 of our main competitions with external judges this year.

I missed one as selecting, printing and all that was not going to be possible in the time I was home between visits away. Anyway, I found myself immensely frustrated with the quality of the judges. One was knowledgeable, gave sound critique and was generally spot on - forum feedback supported this. The next two were poor and disappointing, favouring their own interests, giving very positive critique and then inexplicable scores and /or being unable to provide feedback which would indicate how to improve. He also prefaced almost every image with "This looks better than it did on the computer at home". My other half attended the most recent competition and was bored for the first time ever; having been at the club for a critique evening ( we have 4 judges from the area list) she commented that our judges were superior in every way and seemed able to receive an image as more than the sum of its technical parts.

As a result of this frustration, I decided to enter the Cheltenham Salon this year just to see how my images would be received; they came and gave a presentation to the club in 2016 so I decided to have a go in 4 categories. I was very chuffed last night to receive an email that said that I have 3 acceptances. So I have 2 in open colour and one, staggeringly, in Nature. I have simple feedback; no inaccurate assumptions about technique? I can see that my monos are not yet up to their mark. My creative images were just under their mark. I say 'staggeringly' about nature because at an RPS advisory day in 2015 which reviewed Vis Arts and Nature, a roomful of hopefuls witnessed demolition after demolition of candidates almost shrivel and die from the harsh feedback received. One guy, whose butterfly images seemed exquisite to the rest of us, was almost in tears. Anyway, I digress. Well done for getting this far if you have!

So I wondered what acceptances meant in a wider scheme. I knew that they can be added up to get a distinction but was rather bemused to see that x acceptances had to be in x countries with at least x prints and x dpi's. I briefly wondered if this is an expensive way to madness! In fact, I still wonder this so.... I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on salons, competitions and what we should sensibly expect our photography to bring us.
 
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Chipper said:
Well, I was going to start a new thread but will try this here. I have been in a camera club for a couple of years now. I did an LRPS and realised how much I had to learn. I watched competitions whilst working away at then walking away from two 'marmite' ARPS panels. I had quite a pressured, competitive life as an Assistant Headteacher so I only started to think about other sources of competitive 'buzz' once I had retired. At the same time, injuries saw my sporting activities severely limited. In the first year I entered one competition. In my second full year, I joined the club committee. I found the knowledge and support of members who helped me get to grips with Software like Lightroom and PS invaluable. I entered 3 of 4 of our main competitions with external judges this year.

I missed one as selecting, printing and all that was not going to be possible in the time I was home between visits away. Anyway, I found myself immensely frustrated with the quality of the judges. One was knowledgeable, gave sound critique and was generally spot on - forum feedback supported this. The next two were poor and disappointing, favouring their own interests, giving very positive critique and then inexplicable scores and /or being unable to provide feedback which would indicate how to improve. He also prefaced almost every image with "This looks better than it did on the computer at home". My other half attended the most recent competition and was bored for the first time ever; having been at the club for a critique evening ( we have 4 judges from the area list) she commented that our judges were superior in every way and seemed able to receive an image as more than the sum of its technical parts.

As a result of this frustration, I decided to enter the Cheltenham Salon this year just to see how my images would be received; they came and gave a presentation to the club in 2016 so I decided to have a go in 4 categories. I was very chuffed last night to receive an email that said that I have 3 acceptances. So I have 2 in open colour and one, staggeringly, in Nature. I have simple feedback; no inaccurate assumptions about technique? I can see that my monos are not yet up to their mark. My creative images were just under their mark. I say 'staggeringly' about nature because at an RPS advisory day in 2015 which reviewed Vis Arts and Nature, a roomful of hopefuls witnessed demolition after demolition of candidates almost shrivel and die from the harsh feedback received. One guy, whose butterfly images seemed exquisite to the rest of us, was almost in tears. Anyway, I digress. Well done for getting this far if you have!

So I wondered what acceptances meant in a wider scheme. I knew that they can be added up to get a distinction but was rather bemused to see that x acceptances had to be in x countries with at least x prints and x dpi's. I briefly wondered if this is an expensive way to madness! In fact, I still wonder this so.... I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on salons, competitions and what we should sensibly expect our photography to bring us.
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I'm not surprised at any of that

Salons - I just don't get it. Yes you get 'letters' if you have enough Acceptances, and some salons are clearly after better photography than others

I've been told there is a collective 'knowledge' about which salons to send which types of photos to so as to better one's chances, which all seems crazy to me

So yes, it seems a lengthy and very expensive way to get some letters that may not really mean much. You can, for instance, submit the same image to multiple salons so in theory you could get 250 Acceptances with as little as 25 images, and you get letters after your name for that I believe

Crazy

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I'm not surprised at any of that

Salons - I just don't get it. Yes you get 'letters' if you have enough Acceptances, and some salons are clearly after better photography than others

I've been told there is a collective 'knowledge' about which salons to send which types of photos to so as to better one's chances, which all seems crazy to me

So yes, it seems a lengthy and very expensive way to get some letters that may not really mean much. You can, for instance, submit the same image to multiple salons so in theory you could get 250 Acceptances with as little as 25 images, and you get letters after your name for that I believe

Crazy

Dave
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Not as expensive as getting an RPS Distinction.
 
No camera clubs where i live, but on the question of marking I would have thought the judge was the one who decided how the exhibits were marked, that would be the judges decision not the clubs. if a judge started by going to what a club stipulates then surely he/she cannot mark as they wish
 
realspeed said:
No camera clubs where i live, but on the question of marking I would have thought the judge was the one who decided how the exhibits were marked, that would be the judges decision not the clubs. if a judge started by going to what a club stipulates then surely he/she cannot mark as they wish
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Its not a question of marking how I wish, we mark based on each clubs own rules - that they are broadly similar does make things easier. Its not like there's a nationally agreed way to mark, and even within the YPU there is no set way to do it

In the way some club calculate their POTY you can be asked to choose 1st, 2nd & 3rd. In others it'll be the top 3 highest marks. In some if the top marks are the same, i.e. two given a 19, then they still want a winner so one is upgraded to a 20. In some the top 3 are always 20,19,18 regardless of whether a 'perfect' score is due

Hence we mark within guidelines each club wants

Dave
 
Chipper said:
Really? It would cost hundreds of pounds to enter all those salons. The ARPS fee is £90. Ish. Do you mean membership fees?
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Its higher than that, £110 I think now, or thereabouts - but yes, entering all the salons some do and where many are overseas too can cost a Hell of a lot more

Dave
 
Chipper said:
Really? It would cost hundreds of pounds to enter all those salons. The ARPS fee is £90. Ish. Do you mean membership fees?
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One and the same. You have to be a member to actually receive the distinction. Then you pay £120 every year to be able to continue to use the LRPS etc.

It cost me £150 for an AFIAP and no more to pay.
 
Gaz J said:
One and the same. You have to be a member to actually receive the distinction. Then you pay £120 every year to be able to continue to use the LRPS etc.

It cost me £150 for an AFIAP and no more to pay.
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If all you're ever after is some letters than that's a bargain I agree, the RPS (and indeed pretty much all the various societies) offers much more than just some letters. I'm a HUGE tight-arse but I still value my RPS membership, just as I did for years my SWPP membership until it no longer delivered what I was after - letters is a bonus

Dave
 
I would want marks for the 'techie stuff' marks for 'artistic merit' and an overall mark which may well not be the sum of the previous 2. However rather than marks, personally I would want constructive critique.
 
DG Phototraining said:
If all you're ever after is some letters than that's a bargain I agree, the RPS (and indeed pretty much all the various societies) offers much more than just some letters. I'm a HUGE tight-arse but I still value my RPS membership, just as I did for years my SWPP membership until it no longer delivered what I was after - letters is a bonus

Dave
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In my camera club we have an RPS member who keeps banging on about how much they offer for the membership and how inferior the PAGB etc is to the RPS but you have to be prepared to travel for it. It seems that they don't know where Wales is.
 
I have looked at the PAGB. There are two assessments and year and there is now a waiting list for November that is so long that you are almost certainly not going to be assessed until April 2018. When I queried the frequency, I was told that thee wasn't enough time.
 
reheat module said:
Lots of differing ideas here, - good to see.
As far as put downs are concerned, one judge (at the coffee break), made the mistake of asking "Are there any questions"?
Quick as a flash, (anonymous hehe) said - "Can your guide dog have a biscuit..."?
Judge did see the funny side of it.
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I think I'd have replied something along the lines of "Yes it can... but he's a bugger and bribery will get you nowhere"! ;)
 
At Brentwood & District Photographic Club for 'Projected Image' Comps we mark A,B,C and D, and Comp Secretary gives points to each -- the Judge c an give as many 'A' marks as they think fit if there are several photos all equal in excellence but, say, a Portrait and a Natural History and a Landscape -- then the 'near misses' get 'B' and 'C' and really poor ones get 'D' - then at end of Competition year members with most 'A's' get added up and if there is a 'Tie' 'B' points get taken and the one with most points gets the Very Valuable Electro-Plated Nickel Silver Rose Bowl !
 
Well, after all my frustrations this year with some poor judging( opinion of the members on the club forum) I went to our awards night with zero expectations. Was rather gobsmacked to come away with a commended, 3 highly commendeds and a trophy for the Runner Up image in the monochrome of the season section. the first judge to critique that image was what triggered me posting in this thread. All a bit surreal!
 
Using any points system your always going to have a bottom points and thus always going to be in a position to upset someone.. So 1.2.3 is best for the judge and also less embarresing for the competItors IMHO
 
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