Massively improved EV range coming soon?

What are synthetic oils synthesised from?

Land used for bio fuel production is land taken from food production and we have precious little to spare!
 
Synthetic oils can be made from old engine oil. It can be constantly recycled and reused. Diesel can also be refined from engine oil. Used engine oil is also be used in oil heaters.
There has been testing and development of a biodiesel blend using food scraps and manure.
 
nilagin said:
There has been testing and development of a biodiesel blend using food scraps and manure.
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Yes. Diversity is the key to sustainability but government and big business seem to struggle with the concept. :thinking:
 
decigallen said:
Battery second-life is big business already. Most of the EV manufacturers are investing in it. Even after an EV is done, the battery is still useful in a lot of applications such as household or grid storage. I imagine a lot of the elements involved will also be valuable for recycling so the financial benefits will dissuade box-ticking.

I'd be more worried about the ethics and environmental impact of Lithium and cobalt mining. That is my only issue with EVs.
Click to expand...

But does the recycling actually get done (or will it actually get done if the numbers ramp up) and done in an environmentally friendly way? I have no idea but I'm always suspicious of these things.

Yes to the mining worries etc.
 
*Sigh* Lidl PR clearly have zero understanding of EV's. They are showing the Audi A3 PHEV that can only charge at 3kW, and will take over 2 hours to recharge its tiny 20 miles battery, plugged into 50kW rapid chargers intended to recharge rapid capable EV's to 80% quickly.
(rapid capable EV includes PHEV, the 2020 Merc A class PHEV can rapid charge. The Outlander PHEV can rapid charge)


Every little helps. But for supermarket and Ikea, I still think putting in more 7kW destination charging at a lower cost is better than a single en-route rapid charger. Tesco got the right idea, by providing the land and having VW fund installation of mostly 7kW destination charging posts.
 
wuyanxu said:
*Sigh* Lidl PR clearly have zero understanding of EV's. They are showing the Audi A3 PHEV that can only charge at 3kW, and will take over 2 hours to recharge its tiny 20 miles battery, plugged into 50kW rapid chargers intended to recharge rapid capable EV's to 80% quickly.
(rapid capable EV includes PHEV, the 2020 Merc A class PHEV can rapid charge. The Outlander PHEV can rapid charge)


Every little helps. But for supermarket and Ikea, I still think putting in more 7kW destination charging at a lower cost is better than a single en-route rapid charger. Tesco got the right idea, by providing the land and having VW fund installation of mostly 7kW destination charging posts.
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Probably the only EV they could find in Ireland for the photo. ;)
 
wuyanxu said:
EV battery range is more than adequate in today's EV's. People need to stop irrationally overestimate their needs and look at how they actually use their cars, how long do you actually drive in one leg of your journey. Now, it's only the charging infrastructure need to catch up.
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I've got a budget of £2000 , which electric vehicle do you suggest I buy

The average age of a petrol car is 9 years according to the RAC so that means there are a lot of £2000 10-15 year old cars on the road which must make up a huge percentage of registered vehicles

How do you suggest somebody with this budget buys an EV and even if they do come down to that figure at some point what range are they likely to have 30 miles, 40 miles
 
wack61 said:
I've got a budget of £2000 , which electric vehicle do you suggest I buy

The average age of a petrol car is 9 years according to the RAC so that means there are a lot of £2000 10-15 year old cars on the road which must make up a huge percentage of registered vehicles

How do you suggest somebody with this budget buys an EV and even if they do come down to that figure at some point what range are they likely to have 30 miles, 40 miles
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Currently, there's no EV at your price range. It's more to do with the lack of 10+ years old EV than anything else.

But consider how much would you spend in keeping that 10+ years old car on the road. £££ clutch or dual mass flywheel fix, ££ EGR unblocking, £££ on DPF replacement, ££ exhaust rust fix etc. You could possibly afford a more expensive and newer EV.

Let's do a back of napkin maths to show my point:
- £2000 car for 5 years, £400 pa servicing and keeping it on the road, £5000 for 50k miles of fuel. => £9000
- £6000 newer EV for 5 years, £300 pa on keeping it on the road, £1500 for 50k miles of electricity. => £9000
(that is on the assumption that the cars are worthless after 5 years. You can, of course, sell the newer EV whereas 15 years old car is at the very bottom of its depreciation curve, worth very little)
(keeping it on the road includes: tyres, wipers, other consumables, oil changes, fixes, etc)

Currently, there are quite a few 6-7 years old Nissan Leaf in £6000-7000 range on Autotrader. For what it's worth, my 5 years old Nissan Leaf has 85% battery health and can still reliably and comfortably do 60 miles without worry, total range is 70-80 miles.

Just so happens we decided to keep our Leaf long term, and paid off PCP 1 year early yesterday. Total purchase cost of my '64 reg Leaf when it was just under 3 years old is £8880. I also bought a 3.8 years old Skoda Octavia about 4 months earlier for £8800 cash. (starting a family back then, was changing to bigger cars) Considering the Skoda is older, much higher mileage but bigger car, I'd say in 2017, second hand EV and ICE cars were selling for similar prices. Now however.............


The real problem for EV adoption, I think it's not the car's price or range. I think the real problem is how EV's are not accessible to those living in flats. A cheap EV like the first gen Nissan Leaf will require you to always have access to a charger overnight. Those living in flats are usually financially worse off than those who owns driveways, so the push towards EV without sufficient infrastructure will likely widen the poverty gap.

Supermarket chargers will help greatly. But only having a single one installed, with slow charging PHEV plugged in won't. ;)
 
I'm about as far away from an EV as you can get , I drive a 5.0 V8

People buy from Amazon because it's cheaper than currys , the same will apply to electric cars , if it saves money people will buy one , if it doesn't they won't , an EV out of warranty is a big unknown

The problem isn't ICE cars , it's just cars , most families with an electric car will have a bigger conventional car for longer trips , I'd think the single electric car family is almost non existent
 
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wack61 said:
Funny thing was this kid turned up on an electric mountain bike , I say kid he's about 20, then he told me what he'd paid for it, my jaw hit the floor £5000, how could you leave that anywhere

https://www.evanscycles.com/trek-rail-7-2020-electric-mountain-bike-EV371193

Might as well get a front light for it
https://www.evanscycles.com/cateye-volt-rechargeable-front-light-6000-lumen-EV250156

As kev said, "If you build it they will come"
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They're awesome fun. You can hire them at Bike Park Wales. Means us fattys can get up the hills and just enjoy the downhill sections :)
 
wuyanxu said:
I think the real problem is how EV's are not accessible to those living in flats.
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That's far too simplistic a view. Take a look around. Even in large towns there are streets of terraced houses and most folk can't park anywhere near their own house. Go to any small town - the same. Now go to any village and you'll still find a lot of properties with no driveways. There's whole swathes of the UK excluded from EV ownership and it has little to do with poverty. No facility to home charge, no publicly available charging points, no public transport, and we're increasing being made to feel guilty because our ICE vehicles are not a luxury, they're an absolute necessity whether we can afford them or not.
Rant over
 
Could be tempting...
 
wuyanxu said:
Currently, there's no EV at your price range. It's more to do with the lack of 10+ years old EV than anything else.

But consider how much would you spend in keeping that 10+ years old car on the road. £££ clutch or dual mass flywheel fix, ££ EGR unblocking, £££ on DPF replacement, ££ exhaust rust fix etc. You could possibly afford a more expensive and newer EV.

Let's do a back of napkin maths to show my point:
- £2000 car for 5 years, £400 pa servicing and keeping it on the road, £5000 for 50k miles of fuel. => £9000
- £6000 newer EV for 5 years, £300 pa on keeping it on the road, £1500 for 50k miles of electricity. => £9000
(that is on the assumption that the cars are worthless after 5 years. You can, of course, sell the newer EV whereas 15 years old car is at the very bottom of its depreciation curve, worth very little)
(keeping it on the road includes: tyres, wipers, other consumables, oil changes, fixes, etc)

Currently, there are quite a few 6-7 years old Nissan Leaf in £6000-7000 range on Autotrader. For what it's worth, my 5 years old Nissan Leaf has 85% battery health and can still reliably and comfortably do 60 miles without worry, total range is 70-80 miles.

Just so happens we decided to keep our Leaf long term, and paid off PCP 1 year early yesterday. Total purchase cost of my '64 reg Leaf when it was just under 3 years old is £8880.
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I hope for your sake your Leaf battery continues to remain relatively healthy. The price of a replacement including labour has gone through the roof. An owner in Portugal was recently quoted €30k, similar costing has also been found in Australia.
There are computer systems failing on a certain American based companies EV built prior to 2018. Not so bad if the vehicle is within warranty, expensive if not. But for an odd reason the replacements are still the pre 2018 units so will fail again. Consensus is that all pre 2018 models will eventually suffer the same failure.
 
Jannyfox said:
we're increasing being made to feel guilty because our ICE vehicles are not a luxury, they're an absolute necessity whether we can afford them or not.
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Absolutely right. Like so many aspects of the climate change thing there's too much "we must do this" and little or no "this is how we do it and this is what it will cost us".
 
wack61 said:
Funny thing was this kid turned up on an electric mountain bike , I say kid he's about 20, then he told me what he'd paid for it, my jaw hit the floor £5000, how could you leave that anywhere
"
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Cycle manufacturers, and accessories, are exploiting the rise in popularity of cycling. You can easily spend more on a top of the range bike now than a small car. It's madness
 
wack61 said:
most families with an electric car will have a bigger conventional car for longer trips , I'd think the single electric car family is almost non existent
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This is currently true. The public infrastructure need to vastly improve before majority of people could trust it and drive EV long distances.

Jannyfox said:
That's far too simplistic a view. Take a look around. Even in large towns there are streets of terraced houses and most folk can't park anywhere near their own house. Go to any small town - the same. Now go to any village and you'll still find a lot of properties with no driveways. There's whole swathes of the UK excluded from EV ownership and it has little to do with poverty. No facility to home charge, no publicly available charging points, no public transport, and we're increasing being made to feel guilty because our ICE vehicles are not a luxury, they're an absolute necessity whether we can afford them or not.
Rant over
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Yes, I had forgotten those houses without driveways. Again, this points to the lacking coordinated infrastructure effort from govt.

Take Norway, govt EV infrastructure investment started in 2009. There is an official national database for chargers, by the govt. There is "charge ready" initiative to allow potential buyers easily filter their property purchasing.
Good paper summarising this: https://elbil.no/wp-content/uploads...infrastrucure-experiences-in-Norway-paper.pdf


nilagin said:
I hope for your sake your Leaf battery continues to remain relatively healthy. The price of a replacement including labour has gone through the roof. An owner in Portugal was recently quoted €30k, similar costing has also been found in Australia.
There are computer systems failing on a certain American based companies EV built prior to 2018. Not so bad if the vehicle is within warranty, expensive if not. But for an odd reason the replacements are still the pre 2018 units so will fail again. Consensus is that all pre 2018 models will eventually suffer the same failure.
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Thanks for your concern. But it reads a lot like more of your usual scaremongering, casting doubt on EV reliability using anecdotal stories.
Computer systems can fail on any vehicle, doesn't matter the drivetrain.
Nissan Leaf replacement of main battery costs £5000.
https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/
 
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arclight said:
When I scanned down the list of thread titles and saw EV I thought it was referring to Exposure Value. :LOL:
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Indeed this is after all a photography forum! Using a photographic term in a title to mean something else doesn't make sense.
 
nilagin said:
A lot of engine oils are now fully synthetic. Fuel systems may well need upgrading, but ICE vehicles don't necessarily have to run on petrol or diesel.
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Petrol engines can run on bioethanol (not mineral derived at all) & diesels of biodiesel (fatty acid methyl esters, created from vegetable oil). Some reprograming of engine management systems & change of ancillary components may be needed, but no significant changes are required.
Even the hydrocarbon portion of todays petrol CAN be of non mineral bio-derived sources - it's much more expensive but being done for some motorsports.

Hydrogen if produced cleanly & stored safely, would be a much better fuel, preferably linked up with fuel cells rather than engines, but this technology is still under development.
 
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wuyanxu said:
This is currently true. The public infrastructure need to vastly improve before majority of people could trust it and drive EV long distances.


Yes, I had forgotten those houses without driveways. Again, this points to the lacking coordinated infrastructure effort from govt.

Take Norway, govt EV infrastructure investment started in 2009. There is an official national database for chargers, by the govt. There is "charge ready" initiative to allow potential buyers easily filter their property purchasing.
Good paper summarising this: https://elbil.no/wp-content/uploads...infrastrucure-experiences-in-Norway-paper.pdf



Thanks for your concern. But it reads a lot like more of your usual scaremongering, casting doubt on EV reliability using anecdotal stories.
Computer systems can fail on any vehicle, doesn't matter the drivetrain.
Nissan Leaf replacement of main battery costs £5000.
https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/
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I might have known you would claim the scaremongering card.
Ecu's very rarely fail and if they do, it will be random, not a case of every unit expected to fail.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AxAB&usg=AOvVaw0BWmry4RH_mxz2lJwAPZX_&ampcf=1


Your Nissan replacement battery price is over a year old. You obviously missed the bit where I said the cost has gone through the roof.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AxAB&usg=AOvVaw03fd54dYvgGX8eUOLzHe4T&ampcf=1
 
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nilagin said:
I might have known you would claim the scaremongering card.
Ecu's very rarely fail and if they do, it will be random, not a case of every unit expected to fail.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AxAB&usg=AOvVaw0BWmry4RH_mxz2lJwAPZX_&ampcf=1


Your Nissan replacement battery price is over a year old. You obviously missed the bit where I said the cost has gone through the roof.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...AxAB&usg=AOvVaw03fd54dYvgGX8eUOLzHe4T&ampcf=1
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First article quotes 3 stories and a few repairer sources. Out of how many Tesla's on the road?
Second article quotes 2 stories. Out of how many Nissan Leaf on the road?
Very much like Chinese whispers, the definition of anecdote.

Battery degrade, huge degradation will mean a few cells are degrading faster than rest. There are independent companies that can replace cells at cheaper price than cost to replace the DPF. Taking the car to Nissan main (st)ealer, whose only procedure is to replace the whole pack, is idiotic.
https://www.indra.co.uk/ev-service-centre
http://www.hevra.org.uk/

If the battery pack prices have shot up over the last year, does that mean holding onto a used EV could see its battery pack value exceed usual expected used car value? Thus, unlike old ICE bangers, old EV will retain its value better due to the battery. ;)
 
Bikes just aren't practical for a lot of people and uses but I've always thought that a tuk tuk would be quite useful for to and from work and shopping or pleasure use as long as the distances aren't too great.

It's a shame that the original article and technology and their mention of tuk tuks seems to be, from what I can see, a pack of lies, smoke and mirrors.
 
wuyanxu said:
First article quotes 3 stories and a few repairer sources. Out of how many Tesla's on the road?
Second article quotes 2 stories. Out of how many Nissan Leaf on the road?
Very much like Chinese whispers, the definition of anecdote.

Battery degrade, huge degradation will mean a few cells are degrading faster than rest. There are independent companies that can replace cells at cheaper price than cost to replace the DPF. Taking the car to Nissan main (st)ealer, whose only procedure is to replace the whole pack, is idiotic.
https://www.indra.co.uk/ev-service-centre
http://www.hevra.org.uk/

If the battery pack prices have shot up over the last year, does that mean holding onto a used EV could see its battery pack value exceed usual expected used car value? Thus, unlike old ICE bangers, old EV will retain its value better due to the battery. ;)
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Yet again you show little understanding of cars. Aside from the Tesla failing computers, we'll just have to wait to see if anymore pre2018 cars suffer the same failures. Just because it costs €30k to replace a Leaf battery pack, it doesn't mean the value of a second hand car will go up, quite the opposite in fact as people are less likely to want to buy one.

Neither of your links provide any proof of cost of replacing just part of a battery cell. What makes you so sure it will be cheaper than a dpf replacement?
 
nilagin said:
Yet again you show little understanding of cars. Aside from the Tesla failing computers, we'll just have to wait to see if anymore pre2018 cars suffer the same failures. Just because it costs €30k to replace a Leaf battery pack, it doesn't mean the value of a second hand car will go up, quite the opposite in fact as people are less likely to want to buy one.
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Yet again, you show little understanding of batteries and software.

The Tesla failures are said to be due to data logging, this can easily be tweaked via software updates.
The used Leaf battery cells can be re-used. There will always be higher residue value in a used battery pack than a beyond-economical-repair ICE. It's never about people wanting to buy the car as a car, your made the assumption because you have little understanding of batteries, you are not looking at the changes facing your own industry.

Just like this PSA comment: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/psa-group-evs-threaten-car-industry
“EVs are far simpler [than internal combustion engined vehicles]," she explained. "They need less parts, less time in the workshop. Ultimately, it means less time in aftersales.
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Sounds good to me, as a consumer. Only those manufacturers who can't adopt will be fallen behind, and there will always be new manufacturers ready to take over.
 
Mikesphotaes said:
God, here we go again!
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Yep.

Guys, please don't take this off topic or let it be personal again. This time we won't close the thread, we'll just not let people post in it :D
 
wuyanxu said:
Yet again, you show little understanding of batteries and software.

The Tesla failures are said to be due to data logging, this can easily be tweaked via software updates.
The used Leaf battery cells can be re-used. There will always be higher residue value in a used battery pack than a beyond-economical-repair ICE. It's never about people wanting to buy the car as a car, your made the assumption because you have little understanding of batteries, you are not looking at the changes facing your own industry.

Just like this PSA comment: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/psa-group-evs-threaten-car-industry

Sounds good to me, as a consumer. Only those manufacturers who can't adopt will be fallen behind, and there will always be new manufacturers ready to take over.
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It doesn't matter what a used battery can be used for after it is no longer useable in the vehicle. It is the cost of replacement to keep the vehicle running.
The fact that a replacement battery could be high, doesn't mean the residual battery now only suitable for storage will be worth anymore than it was before.
 
Sorry. I have to do better resist clicking "Show ignored content".


In sort of related news, Top Gear have done a very balanced video on Taycan vs Model S.
https://electrek.co/2019/10/30/tesla-model-s-raven-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-fairer-review/
"[...] All of us, the media, the fans have crushed the two together as arch rivals, when in every way but straight-line speed, both cars go about their business in totally different ways."
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Same could be said for I-pace vs Model X back when I-pace just released. It's about time EV's are reviewed amongst other cars of similar size and price range.

The bit I really like is they've mentioned charging. This is the most important aspect of EV, something majority of the traditional journalises seems to miss.
End of the day, 250 vs 320 miles range (or whatever they were) doesn't make much difference during a roadtrip if you can't charge at the fastest rate at a wide range of locations.
 
wuyanxu said:
Same could be said for I-pace vs Model X back when I-pace just released. It's about time EV's are reviewed amongst other cars of similar size and price range.
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As pointed out to you in the other thread, until there are vehicles of similar price and size from different manufacturers, comparisons can only be made from what is currently available.
A new vehicle will be unveiled next month with sales to start next year, so there will be more choice and closer comparisons can be made.
It's like American Tesla owners slating the cost of the Porsche compared to the Model S Performance, failing to realise most of the big price difference is because of the duty Trump has slapped on imports, this side of the pond the price difference is nowhere as big.
 
wuyanxu said:
The bit I really like is they've mentioned charging. This is the most important aspect of EV, something majority of the traditional journalises seems to miss.
End of the day, 250 vs 320 miles range (or whatever they were) doesn't make much difference during a roadtrip if you can't charge at the fastest rate at a wide range of locations.
Click to expand...
Whilst Tesla's may be able to charge at a faster rate than other EV's, there is only around 290 Supercharger installations in the UK, meanwhile other EV's with fast charge capability can take advantage of the current 2000 rapid chargers around the UK.
 
A couple of months ago 2 power sources tripped out and some areas of the country were without power

I have a mate who works in the power industry , he was telling me in order to prevent this happening again they're considering drawing power from batteries that are connected to the grid at peak times

Guess where these batteries are :D

I did notice a lot more charge points in Normandy when I was over there in september , pubs, small supermarket car parks , no cars on them though

a hypermarket in Bayeux had about 15 of them in a EV bay at the end of the store
 
*sigh, I just can't resist. I hate incorrect assertions or only telling half the story.

nilagin said:
Whilst Tesla's may be able to charge at a faster rate than other EV's, there is only around 290 Supercharger installations in the UK, meanwhile other EV's with fast charge capability can take advantage of the current 2000 rapid chargers around the UK.
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The real situation is quite different to the picture you've painted, the Porasche Taycan can charge at over 200 kW using its 800v system. There are only 12 chargers capable of this in UK, across 3 locations, only 4 stalls per site.
Vast majority of UK rapid chargers are 50kW, less than a quater of Taycan's capabilities.

The 2000 rapid chargers you've quoted are all dotted around the place, usually 1 or 2 per site.

Whereas the 290 Tesla superchargers (source? is this up to date?) are built in clusters. Meaning Tesla superchargers have higher availability and thus more reliable as charging network. There are currently 52 locations (27 more are "coming soon"), using your 290 gives average of 5.57 stalls per site.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus/list/superchargers/United Kingdom

nilagin said:
As pointed out to you in the other thread, until there are vehicles of similar price and size from different manufacturers, comparisons can only be made from what is currently available.
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There is vehicles of similar price and size. It's not like Taycan or I-Pace are completely new and unique.
Let's see:
Comparable to Taycan: performance saloons: Panamera, E or S class, 5 or 7 series, etc.
Comparable to I-Pace: mid-size SUV's: Q5, Jag's own E-Pace, X3, etc

Model X is not similar price and size to I-Pace.
Model S is not similar price to Taycan. £100k vs £150k as shown in the TG video.

wack61 said:
I have a mate who works in the power industry , he was telling me in order to prevent this happening again they're considering drawing power from batteries that are connected to the grid at peak times

Guess where these batteries are :D
Click to expand...
Home batteries?

Unfortunately Vehicle-2-Grid technology is still in its infancy. All 7kW home chargers installed today can only allow the power flow 1 way.

This is the future really. Get home, plug in the car, and use remaining charge in the car to reduce peak time demand on the grid (where the price should be most expensive). Overnight during off-peak, the car would charge up and ready for another day.

This is the reason for smart meters. You can then do per-hour or half-hour pricing. Which currently translates to much cheaper tariff during off-peak hours and slightly more expensive during peak times.
Eg. https://octopus.energy/agile/
 
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wack61 said:
A couple of months ago 2 power sources tripped out and some areas of the country were without power
Click to expand...


One has to wonder how well the fuel pumps in the blacked out areas worked...
 
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