Massively improved EV range coming soon?

[nilagin]

*sigh, I just can't resist. I hate incorrect assertions or only telling half the story.


The real situation is quite different to the picture you've painted, the Porasche Taycan can charge at over 200 kW using its 800v system. There are only 12 chargers capable of this in UK, across 3 locations, only 4 stalls per site.
Vast majority of UK rapid chargers are 50kW, less than a quater of Taycan's capabilities.

The 2000 rapid chargers you've quoted are all dotted around the place, usually 1 or 2 per site.

Whereas the 290 Tesla superchargers (source? is this up to date?) are built in clusters. Meaning Tesla superchargers have higher availability and thus more reliable as charging network. There are currently 52 locations (27 more are "coming soon"), using your 290 gives average of 5.57 stalls per site.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus/list/superchargers/United Kingdom


There is vehicles of similar price and size. It's not like Taycan or I-Pace are completely new and unique.
Let's see:
Comparable to Taycan: performance saloons: Panamera, E or S class, 5 or 7 series, etc.
Comparable to I-Pace: mid-size SUV's: Q5, Jag's own E-Pace, X3, etc

Model X is not similar price and size to I-Pace.
Model S is not similar price to Taycan. £100k vs £150k as shown in the TG video.


Home batteries?

Unfortunately Vehicle-2-Grid technology is still in its infancy. All 7kW home chargers installed today can only allow the power flow 1 way.

This is the future really. Get home, plug in the car, and use remaining charge in the car to reduce peak time demand on the grid (where the price should be most expensive). Overnight during off-peak, the car would charge up and ready for another day.

This is the reason for smart meters. You can then do per-hour or half-hour pricing. Which currently translates to much cheaper tariff during off-peak hours and slightly more expensive during peak times.
Eg. https://octopus.energy/agile/

For someone who champions EV, I would expect you to actually have Up to date facts. The Porsche Taycan price is £83,367. When Tesla have finished developing their Tesla S Plaid, the cost will be closer if not more than the £150k for the top model Taycan.
Why are you trying to compare Electric cars with ice models. The comment was about comparing EV's and as there are so few like for like models true comparisons can't be made.
The 290 Tesla supercharger was correct in July this year. Source? There is this search engine called Google, try it. Around the same time there was 2000 alternative rapid chargers with plans to double that over the next few years. I don't see how you could believe 290 Tesla supercharger spread over the UK could be a better network than 2000 alternative rapid chargers spread over the same area.

 

[wyx087]

The Porsche Taycan price is £83,367. When Tesla have finished developing their Tesla S Plaid, the cost will be closer if not more than the £150k for the top model Taycan.

All I can say is that the top spec Taycan Top Gear showed that matched the top spec Tesla in acceleration is £150k, the top spec Tesla S is £100k. 50k price difference for two very different cars. No one knows how much the extreme performance S will cost, not even Tesla because they are still developing it. Don't know how you can be so sure.......

Why are you trying to compare Electric cars with ice models. The comment was about comparing EV's and as there are so few like for like models true comparisons can't be made.

Why not? They are all cars. They all serve the same function as personal transport.
Your comment was about comparing cars of similar size and price was it not? No mention of only comparing EV's.

until there are vehicles of similar price and size from different manufacturers, comparisons can only be made from what is currently available.

I don't see how you could believe 290 Tesla supercharger spread over the UK could be a better network than 2000 alternative rapid chargers spread over the same area.

By personal experience and looking with my eyes. I've experienced queuing for 2 rapid chargers at a popular location, I've experienced broken rapid charger at a location with only 1 charger. I've seen unused Tesla charging stalls, I've seen 12 Tesla chargers at a charging location, next to 2 public chargers.

Just looking at numbers doesn't tell the whole story. A single charger at one location cannot be relied upon in the same way a you wouldn't rely on a single petrol pump at petrol station without plan B elsewhere. We need loads of chargers at each location on the trunk roads, the 2014 Nissan part-funded Ecotricity Electric Highway (seen at motorway services) is WAAAY overdue for refresh. Without these, convincing people you don't need mega range to drive EV long distance will never happen.


We need charging network like this: https://fastnedcharging.com/en/
Where they are highly visible, multiple (in the Sunderland location's case, 6) chargers per location, right next to the road (majority of Polar rapid chargers are in the depth of car parks) and future proof with power-banks built-in (last bit comes from Fully Charged interview)

 

[nilagin]

All I can say is that the top spec Taycan Top Gear showed that matched the top spec Tesla in acceleration is £150k, the top spec Tesla S is £100k. 50k price difference for two very different cars. No one knows how much the extreme performance S will cost, not even Tesla because they are still developing it. Don't know how you can be so sure.......


Why not? They are all cars. They all serve the same function as personal transport.
Your comment was about comparing cars of similar size and price was it not? No mention of only comparing EV's.




By personal experience and looking with my eyes. I've experienced queuing for 2 rapid chargers at a popular location, I've experienced broken rapid charger at a location with only 1 charger. I've seen unused Tesla charging stalls, I've seen 12 Tesla chargers at a charging location, next to 2 public chargers.

Just looking at numbers doesn't tell the whole story. A single charger at one location cannot be relied upon in the same way a you wouldn't rely on a single petrol pump at petrol station without plan B elsewhere. We need loads of chargers at each location on the trunk roads, the 2014 Nissan part-funded Ecotricity Electric Highway (seen at motorway services) is WAAAY overdue for refresh. Without these, convincing people you don't need mega range to drive EV long distance will never happen.


We need charging network like this: https://fastnedcharging.com/en/
Where they are highly visible, multiple (in the Sunderland location's case, 6) chargers per location, right next to the road (majority of Polar rapid chargers are in the depth of car parks) and future proof with power-banks built-in (last bit comes from Fully Charged interview)

Well the ceramic brakes that the Tesla S Plaid seen at the Nurburgring is likely to add £15-20k for starters. That alone will bring the price a lot closer to the Taycan.
Just because you have had to queue for a rapid charger and seen empty Tesla chargers, doesn't mean the Tesla network is better, it just looks that way at that one time at that location. 5-6 Tesla chargers in 52 locations is hardly great coverage of the UK, compared to 2000 chargers no matter how many they have in whatever number of locations. Tesla chargers breakdown too.

The subject was comparing electric vehicles. As the choice is currently small, vehicles that would not be classed as being in the same group will be compared. As more cars come to market then the comparisons can become more defined.

 

[wyx087]

5-6 Tesla chargers in 52 locations is hardly great coverage of the UK, compared to 2000 chargers no matter how many they have in whatever number of locations. Tesla chargers breakdown too.

Multiple chargers at each location would mean you can rely on getting a charge at that location.

2000 chargers might seem impressive. But the real story is that they are very spread out, giving a nicely populated map, but when you go to actually use the charger, you might find it to be: occupied, broken, or even not powered. If that single charger at the back of the car park is not working, you'd have wasted 5min and need to go to the next one. Whereas if there's 6 chargers at a single location, you can be sure queuing won't be too long (unlikely all cars arrived at same time) and chances of all broken is low.

Again, let me remind you that you would never rely on a single unmanned petrol pump without plan B. So why is the same okay for EV chargers? The total number of chargers doesn't even tell half the story of actual end-user experience.

 

[nilagin]

Multiple chargers at each location would mean you can rely on getting a charge at that location.

2000 chargers might seem impressive. But the real story is that they are very spread out, giving a nicely populated map, but when you go to actually use the charger, you might find it to be: occupied, broken, or even not powered. If that single charger at the back of the car park is not working, you'd have wasted 5min and need to go to the next one. Whereas if there's 6 chargers at a single location, you can be sure queuing won't be too long (unlikely all cars arrived at same time) and chances of all broken is low.

Again, let me remind you that you would never rely on a single unmanned petrol pump without plan B. So why is the same okay for EV chargers? The total number of chargers doesn't even tell half the story of actual end-user experience.

Do you really believe each of those rapid chargers are in 2000 different locations?

 

[wyx087]

Do you really believe each of those rapid chargers are in 2000 different locations?

Do you really believe there are less than 1000 charging locations?

Here's some hard facts: https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
Rapid Chargers – 1 November 2019
2639
DEVICES
1824
LOCATIONS
Average of 1.45 charger per location for rapid chargers.

Zapmap reports 382 Tesla superchargers right now (once again, your information is out of date),
Tesla website I linked earlier showed 52 locations => average of 7.3 charger per location.

Which network (let's ignore there's fragmented charging membership, apps), public vs Tesla, would you rather use when travelling long distance with family? The network with 1 or 2 chargers at each location, or the network with less chance of queuing, more chance of getting a charge?



EDIT:
Added underline to emphasise typical use-case for en-route rapid chargers. It's not about being near one, that is for when you are parked, aka. destination charging.
Rapid charging is about able to reliably charge while you take a short break. Numbers at each trunk route locations are more important for the typical use-case of rapid chargers.

I won't bother with a response to Neil's pointless comment below. Who clearly still doesn't understand concept of different charging speed.

 

[broc]

Interesting 'chat' on the ZAPMAP website...... an eye opener for me.... lots of people having issues with public chargers..... not a good advert for the charging infrastructure in the UK.

 

[nilagin]

Do you really believe there are less than 1000 charging locations?

Here's some hard facts: https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
Rapid Chargers – 1 November 2019
2639
DEVICES
1824
LOCATIONS
Average of 1.45 charger per location for rapid chargers.

Zapmap reports 382 Tesla superchargers right now (once again, your information is out of date),
Tesla website I linked earlier showed 52 locations => average of 7.3 charger per location.

Which network (let's ignore there's fragmented charging membership, apps), public vs Tesla, would you rather use when travelling long distance with family? The network with 1 or 2 chargers at each location, or the network with less chance of queuing, more chance of getting a charge?

I had already pointed out that the figures I quoted were from July this year. Fairly obvious that the number of chargers would have increased over the last few months.
Tesla could have 50 superchargers at each of their 52 locations. Doesn't really help if you aren't near one of those locations.
With 1824 rapid charger locations, you are going to have more chance of being near several of those than just one Tesla Supercharger.
You said that the you saw several vacant Tesla chargers at a popular charging station. That can be construed in several ways if that is a regular occurrence.
1. There aren't many Tesla's
Or
2. All those chargers aren't really required in that one location as well as many others and Tesla would have done better to have had half as many supercharger at each of their locations and actually have more locations.

 

[Nod]

The only Tesla supercharger station I can think of local to me is at a farm shop and IIRC they have 6 chargers there. Last time we stopped there, 4 of the points were in use. It's about 5 minutes away from the motorway and has a decent café in the complex. Can't remember what day it was but we were meeting friends for lunch there so it would have been between 11AM and 2PM.

 

[dod]

Interesting piece on how the economies of electric car charging are potentially going ot look in the future

https://www.energyvoice.com/otheren...2019-12-10&utm_term=Energy Voice - Newsletter

 

[wyx087]

This is the tariff plots for those 2 days on Octopus Agile:
https://www.speakev.com/threads/my-...comparison-website.139560/page-3#post-2749955

In short: You get paid to consume electricity (charge EV/battery or use dishwasher etc) during off-peak. Majority of the time it's less than 10p/kWh. Only between 4pm and 8pm you have to pay above 20p/kWh.


During 4-8pm, you could siphon power from your parked EV.
https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-charger
Strangely, all Nissan Leaf are supported. That includes 8 years old original Leaf. In this case, early adopters of EV are not left behind when technology evolves, as some people says.
The EV battery warranty is still valid when doing this with larger batter Leaf's.

 

[onomatopoeia]

At the moment plunge pricing is pretty rare, it's happened in the last few days due to the storm hitting overnight sending wind turbines into full tilt when demand is lowest. Even so with so much wind even the peak price is relatively low around 25-30p/kWh.

I need to switch to Octopus but will use their "Go" tariff and charge my battery overnight and let it power the house during the day, being topped up by such solar as there is.

 

[nilagin]

Not so much an increase in mileage, more of a saving really, but research has found that some ev's have suffered a reduction in range of up to almost 50% when using aircon/heater in summer and winter. A 3% saving can be made depending on the colour of the mood lighting in the vehicle.
Red lighting during the winter can make occupants feel warmer and as a result not require the heating turned up so high, thus saving battery power. Likewise in summer, blue lighting makes the occupants feel cooler and the aircon doesn't need to be set so low or work so hard.

 

[wyx087]

research has found that some ev's have suffered a reduction in range of up to almost 50% when using aircon/heater in summer and winter.

Care to share the link to this research?

There are many factors affect range, if the research have concluded 50% reduction of range purely when using aircon/heater, it must be a poorly done research with zero control data. Usage of aircon/heater does not reduce EV range by much. The biggest range-robbing factor is cold battery.

Only when combined with many other factors, depending on your journey profile, it is possible to have up to 50% of range reduction in the most extreme cases.

 

[Nod]

During the summer, a Thursday's use is about 35% with aircon. In winter, using heater, aircon and headlights, this is increased to 37-38%. Mood lighting? Waste of space! For us, comfort is more important than an extra mile or 2 of range.

 

[nilagin]

During the summer, a Thursday's use is about 35% with aircon. In winter, using heater, aircon and headlights, this is increased to 37-38%. Mood lighting? Waste of space! For us, comfort is more important than an extra mile or 2 of range.

You misunderstand the concept. Because of the colour of the lighting, occupants will still feel comfortably warm or cool, without having to have the heating so high or aircon so cold.

 

[nilagin]

Care to share the link to this research?

There are many factors affect range, if the research have concluded 50% reduction of range purely when using aircon/heater, it must be a poorly done research with zero control data. Usage of aircon/heater does not reduce EV range by much. The biggest range-robbing factor is cold battery.

Only when combined with many other factors, depending on your journey profile, it is possible to have up to 50% of range reduction in the most extreme cases.

I said up to 50%.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3fLTGi3cNqXb9a234NCxWo

 

[Nod]

You misunderstand the concept. Because of the colour of the lighting, occupants will still feel comfortably warm or cool, without having to have the heating so high or aircon so cold.

If it's light, the "mood lighting" is invisible and if it's dark, I want the interior to be as dark as possible. Mood lighting is purely a marketing hook and it seems you may have at least nibbled the bait.

 

[nilagin]

If it's light, the "mood lighting" is invisible and if it's dark, I want the interior to be as dark as possible. Mood lighting is purely a marketing hook and it seems you may have at least nibbled the bait.

A marketing hook for what exactly?

 

[Nod]

Mood lighting. A useless idea in a car IMO.

 

[nilagin]

Mood lighting. A useless idea in a car IMO.

Apparently not if it can make the occupants feel warmer or cooler depending on the colour.
Still not a marketing hook though.

 

[wyx087]

I said up to 50%.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3fLTGi3cNqXb9a234NCxWo

So this sentence becomes up to 50% by your count?

The analysis showed that climate-control system loads can increase fuel consumption in PHEVs by as much as 61% and can decrease electric range by up to 35% in EVs.

The article you've linked also does not mention mood lighting.

I won't comment further on your reasoning, logic or ulterior motive.

 

[nilagin]

So this sentence becomes up to 50% by your count?

The article you've linked also does not mention mood lighting.

I won't comment further on your reasoning, logic or ulterior motive.

I never said the article mentioned mood lighting. You asked where the research came from regarding loss of range regarding the use of climate controls in ev's.
Strikes me that you and your mate could do with a serious dose of blue mood lighting.

 

[wyx087]

I never said the article mentioned mood lighting. You asked where the research came from regarding loss of range regarding the use of climate controls in ev's.
Strikes me that you and your mate could do with a serious dose of blue mood lighting.

The unfortunate truth is that you were not stating facts as you so often claim you do.

I wasn't aware stating facts ruined threads.

You've claimed "up to 50%" reduction in range in another attempt at spreading disinformation regarding EV's. When asked, supplied research that actually said "up to 35%". It's a very big difference.

For comparison, fuel economy of petrol cars is said to be up to 22% worse in winter, up to 34% in hybrids.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
Many of the same factors affect all cars. EV are just a lot more efficient in its energy use, so you have less heat to heat the cabin that is usually wasted during other times of the year.

Then, in my personal opinion, mood lighting does not really contribute or relate to the topic of this thread: batteries. Not something I'd bump a few days old thread.......

 

[nilagin]

The unfortunate truth is that you were not stating facts as you so often claim you do.

You've claimed "up to 50%" reduction in range in another attempt at spreading disinformation regarding EV's. When asked, supplied research that actually said "up to 35%". It's a very big difference.

For comparison, fuel economy of petrol cars is said to be up to 22% worse in winter, up to 34% in hybrids.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
Many of the same factors affect all cars. EV are just a lot more efficient in its energy use, so you have less heat to heat the cabin that is usually wasted during other times of the year.

Then, in my personal opinion, mood lighting does not really contribute or relate to the topic of this thread: batteries. Not something I'd bump a few days old thread.......

That box of cornflakes you bought was certainly worth every penny.
Only you could take the negative from a post that was about saving range, in light of reductions caused by the use of a vehicles climate control.
I'd have thought you would have been all over the extra saving, seeing as how you like to post about free electricity or getting paid for it to power your EV.

My petrol car mpg increases by less than 10% in winter as has all my previous cars.

 

[wyx087]

Only you could take the negative from a post that was about saving range, in light of reductions caused by the use of a vehicles climate control.
I'd have thought you would have been all over the extra saving, seeing as how you like to post about free electricity or getting paid for it to power your EV.

I'd love to be positive about your great news about mood lighting, posted out of the blue in an unrelated topic to mood lighting.

But only if you were factual and truthful. All you needed to do were to quoted the actual range reduction as said in the research paper.

 

[nilagin]

I'd love to be positive about your great news about mood lighting, posted out of the blue in an unrelated topic to mood lighting.

But only if you were factual and truthful. All you needed to do were to quoted the actual range reduction as said in the research paper.

The thread is about massively improved ev battery range. Whilst only a small improvement, my post was still on topic.
Care to explain your enthusiasm in this post, https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...oved-ev-range-coming-soon.702619/post-8576760 which isn't related to improving battery range at all?

 

[wyx087]

The thread is about massively improved ev battery range. Whilst only a small improvement, my post was still on topic.
Care to explain your enthusiasm in this post, https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...oved-ev-range-coming-soon.702619/post-8576760 which isn't related to improving battery range at all?

That is in reply to the previous post, to do with charging the batteries. I then expanded on how to better utilise the bi-directional, flexibility nature of EV batteries.

It's not a fuel source sitting idle in a fuel tank 95+ % of the time. Bang, it's gone, no way to get it back into fuel tank.
Electricity stored in batteries can be directly used in many ways (heating, motion, computing, etc). The kinetic motion energy can also be (partially) re-captured back into battery for later use. The same batteries can be used to supplement home/grid depending on demand and price of electricity.

It's all to do with batteries. Battery research and smart meter/chargers is the new frontier. EV is a very small part of all this.

I can start a new thread dedicated to batteries and overall electricity grid solutions if you like? But seeing a mod was talking about charging, I thought flexibility of charging and discharging EV batteries was equally relevant to thread opening post, regarding new battery technologies (which happen to increase EV range).

 

[nilagin]

That is in reply to the previous post, to do with charging the batteries. I then expanded on how to better utilise the bi-directional, flexibility nature of EV batteries.

It's not a fuel source sitting idle in a fuel tank 95+ % of the time. Bang, it's gone, no way to get it back into fuel tank.
Electricity stored in batteries can be directly used in many ways (heating, motion, computing, etc). The kinetic motion energy can also be (partially) re-captured back into battery for later use. The same batteries can be used to supplement home/grid depending on demand and price of electricity.

It's all to do with batteries. Battery research and smart meter/chargers is the new frontier. EV is a very small part of all this.

I can start a new thread dedicated to batteries and overall electricity grid solutions if you like? But seeing a mod was talking about charging, I thought flexibility of charging and discharging EV batteries was equally relevant to thread opening post, regarding new battery technologies (which happen to increase EV range).

Amazing how you can go from the paranoia of wrongly claiming I was knocking EV's to now the post just wasn't worthy of being entered in this thread, even though it is more in keeping with the thread. As you are obviously the moderator of the thread and it being kept strictly on topic, I expect to see you chastising the others and yourself included for dragging the thread off topic.

 

[wyx087]

Amazing how you can go from the paranoia of wrongly claiming I was knocking EV's to now the post just wasn't worthy of being entered in this thread, even though it is more in keeping with the thread.

Come again?

You were fuelling the misconception that EV's get extreme reduced range in winter by saying "up to 50%" (#133), but in fact the paper you supplied said "up to 35%" (#137). Then after being called out (#142 + #144), you did not acknowledge your error and you changed topic to claim your post is only intended to be talking about mood lighting (#145).

I'll stop responses to you for now because this is pointless. Clearly you are unable to hold a meaningful, factual conversation without decending into one linners, nevermind being truthful or sincere.

 

[nilagin]

Not so much an increase in mileage, more of a saving really,

Yes best you stop posting before you dig yourself a bigger hole.

Mind you don't choke on them cornflakes.

 

[wyx087]

This new article talks about battery degradation data collected from 6300 EV's with existing battery tech:
https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/

Breakdown of the data directly from the article:

• If current degradation rates are maintained, the vast majority of batteries will outlast the usable life of the vehicle.
• The average decline in energy storage is 2.3% per year. For a 150-mile EV, you’re likely to lose 17 miles of accessible range after five years.
• EV batteries decline in a non-linear fashion. There’s an early drop, but the rate of decline slows down in subsequent years.
• Liquid-cooled batteries decline slower than air-cooled packs. Geotab saw that a 2015 Tesla Model S with liquid cooling had an average annual degradation rate of 2.3%, compared to an air-cooled 2015 Nissan Leaf’s rate of 4.2%.
• Battery-powered vehicles that have bigger state-of-charge buffers fare better. In other words, some carmakers use a smaller percentage of the battery’s capacity, which reduces usable range. But the conservative approach slows down the degradation rate, most notably in early versions of the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid.
• Higher vehicle use does not necessarily equal higher battery degradation.
• Vehicles driven in hot temperatures show a faster decline in battery health.
• The use of DC fast-chargers speeds up the process of degradation, but there’s not much difference in battery health based on frequent use of Level 1 versus Leve 2 charging. Losses that happen with frequent DC charging are made worse in hot climates.

Interesting bits are highlighted in bold.

So when you are looking at an used EV, if you get a choice of younger high mileage or older low mileage, you should lean towards younger high mileage, as long as rest of the car is sound.

The data is in line with my experience with Nissan Leaf (passive cooled) in UK (never too hot). My car averaged just over 3% decline, it was at 85% a few months ago, at about 4.8 years old. I expect no lower than 75% capacity left in 3 years time, when the car is 8 years old; just under 70% when 10 years old. More than enough range as a local runabout when it's 10 years old.

 

[broc]

This new article talks about battery degradation data collected from 6300 EV's with existing battery tech:
https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/

Breakdown of the data directly from the article:

• If current degradation rates are maintained, the vast majority of batteries will outlast the usable life of the vehicle.
• The average decline in energy storage is 2.3% per year. For a 150-mile EV, you’re likely to lose 17 miles of accessible range after five years.
• EV batteries decline in a non-linear fashion. There’s an early drop, but the rate of decline slows down in subsequent years.
• Liquid-cooled batteries decline slower than air-cooled packs. Geotab saw that a 2015 Tesla Model S with liquid cooling had an average annual degradation rate of 2.3%, compared to an air-cooled 2015 Nissan Leaf’s rate of 4.2%.
• Battery-powered vehicles that have bigger state-of-charge buffers fare better. In other words, some carmakers use a smaller percentage of the battery’s capacity, which reduces usable range. But the conservative approach slows down the degradation rate, most notably in early versions of the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid.
• Higher vehicle use does not necessarily equal higher battery degradation.
• Vehicles driven in hot temperatures show a faster decline in battery health.
• The use of DC fast-chargers speeds up the process of degradation, but there’s not much difference in battery health based on frequent use of Level 1 versus Leve 2 charging. Losses that happen with frequent DC charging are made worse in hot climates.

Interesting bits are highlighted in bold.

So when you are looking at an used EV, if you get a choice of younger high mileage or older low mileage, you should lean towards younger high mileage, as long as rest of the car is sound.

The data is in line with my experience with Nissan Leaf (passive cooled) in UK (never too hot). My car averaged just over 3% decline, it was at 85% a few months ago, at about 4.8 years old. I expect no lower than 75% capacity left in 3 years time, when the car is 8 years old; just under 70% when 10 years old. More than enough range as a local runabout when it's 10 years old.

What's more interesting is the discussion thread posted on the website (after the article) referenced by the above post

https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/

 

[wyx087]

What's more interesting is the discussion thread posted on the website (after the article) referenced by the above post

https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/

This post caught my eye:

To conclude, keeping the battery between 30% - 70% is the healthiest over long-term.
Lower SoC = lower voltage = benefit of increased # of charging cycles.
100% SoC = 4.07 Volts, 80% SoC = 3.94 Volts, 70% SoC = 3.87 Volts
Informative chart here to show longevity
Cycling from 100 % to 0 % we get 500 cycles
Cycling from 100 % to 10 % we get 500 cycles
Cycling from 100 % to 20 % we get 1.000 cycles

Cycling from 90 to 0 % we get 1.500 cycles
Cycling from 90 to 10 % we get 1.500 cycles
Cycling from 90 % to 20 % we get 2.000 cycles

Cycling from 80 to 0 % we get 3.000 cycles
Cycling from 80 to 10 % we get 3.000 cycles
Cycling from 80 % to 20 % we get 3.500 cycles

Cycling from 70 to 0 % we get 5.000 cycles
Cycling from 70 to 10 % we get 5.500 cycles
Cycling from 70 % to 20 % we get 6.000 cycles

Typically, daily driving won't ever need maximum range offered by 200+ miles long range EV's. So you can achieve even lower long term degradation by plugging in every night.

For example, I'm currently using 100% to 10-20% in winter for my 58 miles commute in the Leaf. I estimate same distance could be achieved with a Model 3 standard range+ daily at 70% downto 30%. That would be in the ideal battery operating range for minimising charge cycles.


But perhaps you were referring to the slower charging speed posts?

But Capacity is one thing. Charging speed is another. My X90D 2017 used to charge 110-115kW up to 50%, now it can’t go above 93kW and that’s a momentary peak, just before taper down, which is also more aggressive than before. It’s got 94k km and 27months. That’s roughly 15% Peak charging power loss and thus about 20-25% longer charges total. Combine that with the range loss and it’s suddenly much less “super” to supercharge a reasonable added distance.

I've experienced similar in my Leaf, on the very odd occasions that I do rapid charge, I had noticed the speed doesn't seem to be as quick as when I first tried it. I expect this to be the case with all EV's, so if that's something important to you (eg. if you intend to drive EV long distance) it's best to buy both the most efficient and fastest charging car. As with all things, efficiency is king.



Speaking of charging efficiency. The Porsche Taycan boasts ultra high charging speeds in kW, but actually charges usable miles not so fast, only managing 119 miles in 10mins. Whereas the Tesla model 3 is said to do 160 miles in 10 minutes.
https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/tesla-charges-faster-than-taycan-porsche-efficiency/

In the comments, I think they raise a very good point: charging speed should be quoted in relation to driveable miles and start percentage. Having read that, I personally would like an industry-wide 20:20 number: starting at 20%, how many miles can you recharge in 20 minutes.

 

[wyx087]

Instead of starting another thread, I'm just going to use this thread as all things related to large scale batteries and energy (eg. EV, home battery, grid, etc)

EV Myth busting:

View: https://youtu.be/zLMGDqZ10ks


To save you some time, the video talks about: (I hate people just post a video without summary)

• “National grid cannot cope!” 16% down from record high, if overnight ALL drive EV only 10% demand increase - national grid guy
• “Battery supply chain issues” said to be old stories, today’s EV battery supply chain have ethical paper trails if people actually inspect them.
• “EV are coal powered” 2019 saw weeks of coal-free electricity generation, the grid is getting greener, so are all EV’s on the road. Think about how energy sources are managed: millions of aging ICE cars only get checked once a year VS regulated and monitored power station.
• “EV battery dying after 3 years” EV battery get looked after far better and is so different to smart phones and laptops, not comparable.
• Energy democracy: EV, solar, home battery, all interconnected energy solution.
• “Range anxiety” is more due to lack of charging experience.

 

[nilagin]

Think about how energy sources are managed: millions of aging ICE cars only get checked once a year VS regulated and monitored power station.

ICE may well only get checked once a year from 3yrs old onwards, but emissions are monitored and adjusted from the second the engine starts, to the second it is switched off. There will be very few cars on the road today without that capability.

 

[Nod]

A fair few Diesels seem to be belching forth black smoke. Too old to have DPFs and if a turbo blows a seal the day after its MOT test, it'll continue to spew crap until it either gets pulled over (rare these days - too few traffic plod) or it's due another test. Of course, older Diesels just need to have clear exhausts at tickover and there are still a fair few around. Hell, plenty don't even need to go through an MOT test!

 

[LCPete]

A fair few Diesels seem to be belching forth black smoke. Too old to have DPFs and if a turbo blows a seal the day after its MOT test, it'll continue to spew crap until it either gets pulled over (rare these days - too few traffic plod) or it's due another test. Of course, older Diesels just need to have clear exhausts at tickover and there are still a fair few around. Hell, plenty don't even need to go through an MOT test!

Yes that’s something I’ve noticed as well
I’ve seen a fair few belching out black smoke and wondered why something like that is allowed on the road

 

[nilagin]

A fair few Diesels seem to be belching forth black smoke. Too old to have DPFs and if a turbo blows a seal the day after its MOT test, it'll continue to spew crap until it either gets pulled over (rare these days - too few traffic plod) or it's due another test. Of course, older Diesels just need to have clear exhausts at tickover and there are still a fair few around. Hell, plenty don't even need to go through an MOT test!

Yes that’s something I’ve noticed as well
I’ve seen a fair few belching out black smoke and wondered why something like that is allowed on the road

All cars over 40yrs old require an MOT, most pre 79 diesel cars would have been minicabs and will be long gone. There won't be many 40yr old plus diesels left on the road. Diesel cars still have to pass a smoke test and not just at idle, they are also revved up, they just aren't revved as high as petrol engines as diesel engines have a lower rev limit.
Most cars emitting a cloud of black smoke only do so because the car has been driven around town slowly and the soot has built up in the exhaust, the next time the driver puts their foot down and all the soot comes out in one go. From then on the exhaust should be clear until the next time soot builds up in the exhaust. If the engine continues to smoke, it is a good chance that the injectors are worn, this can lead to over fuelling and the engine is unable to burn it properly.
Why do injectors wear? That is partly down to cheap supermarket biodiesel which doesn't keep the fuel system as clean as the more expensive fuels.

 

[Nod]

No, they don't. They should be roadworthy but there is no requirement for cars over 40 years old to go through an MoT test. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...toric-classic-vehicles-mot-exemption-criteria