Medium format on a budget - Mamiya 645 vs Mamiya C series

Hallsy

Hallsy

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Hi guys, I have recently found myself getting more and more interested in film. The medium itself, as well as the cameras - I love old technology!!

I have had a Holga 120 for a few years, and recently bought & repaired a Yashica Electro 35. The Yashica has been lots of fun, repairing it, servicing it and getting out and using it - I find the 'wait & see' process of getting through a roll of film and waiting for the results lots of fun. It also makes me take more care about what I'm shooting compared to digital.

Anyway, as much as the Holga is fun, I would like to try a decent medium format camera without breaking the bank.

Ideally I would like to be able to use it for portrait as well as general candid/landscape/architectual - but above all, it will be a fun camera - so size/weight/limitations are not such an issue.

It seems that out of the TLR's, most can't focus close enough for portrait, other than the Mamiya C series.
Likewise, a 645 with standard 80mm lens can focus to 0.8m (i think) and is around 50mm FF equivalent, so just about close enough for a portrait as well as being wide enough for general use - that and the option to swap lenses.

Could any users swing favour towards one model or another? Or something else altogether, up to £150 say?

I love the look and design of the Mamiya C series, but from what I have read, many say the 645 tends to get more use as it is easier/nicer to use.

I have seen a nice looking 645 1000s for £129 with 80mm 2.8 lens, which seems like a fair price. I gather the older Mamiya C series cameras used to be quite cheap, bu5 now, £150 seems to be at the cheap end for any of the series.

Appreciate any advice you guys could offer :)
 
I haven't used the 645 but I do have a C330f with 4 of the lenses (55, 80, 135 and 180mm} and they are all superb. The 55mm can focus extremely close, to a couple of inches, and all the lenses are really sharp.
The downside is the weight, it is a fairly heavy piece of kit especially if you need to take out more than one lens, and if you are doing any work closer than 10 feet you really need a paramender. This moves the taking lens onto the same plain as the viewing lens and has to be used with a tripod.
Overall I think that a 645 is a more easily carried kit but the C series are definitely worth consideration if you want top class.
 
I’ve had both cameras and If you’re looking to do portraits I would favour the C series, they’re both good cameras and both offer a good value intro into the world of interchangeable lens MF cameras. The 645 with a WLF is really only useable in landscape, you can obviously get a prism finder but for portraits I think you lose contact with your subject whereas with the WLF on the C series makes this less of an issue.
 
First question would be what image format would you prefer? Square or rectangular? That could be your answer.

To use the 645 in portrait orientation would be easiest if it came with a prism (and a grip ideally). Many do come with a prism though.

The C330 has the obvious issues regarding parallax at close focus and if you intend to use it for landscape photography it would be difficult to use with polarising filters and graduated filters. If you intend to use flash the leaf shutter of the C330 would allow you to sync at any shutter speed which is a benefit.

Whichever one you choose I think that you will enjoy using it. They are both good cameras with great lenses. Not sure whether one would be cheaper to buy extra lenses and accessories for, possibly the 645 as it was such a popular entry level camera into medium format and used by many schools/ colleges so there's plenty of used kit knocking around.

I'm not sure about how close they focus but have you looked at the Bronica S2a? It's an older series of 6x6 SLR's but they tend to be fairly inexpensive. Ed Worthington (the 6 million p man) has one and has blogged about it/ featured it on his Instagram regularly. He has also reviewed it for Emulsive I think. The Nikkor lenses (usually comes with a 75mm Nikkor as standard) have a good reputation. They have a top shutter speed of 1/1000 of a second because they use a focal plane shutter like the Mamiya 645.

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Talk Photography Forums mobile app
 
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I would question your need to be closer than 3 or 4 feet for portraiture. 5 or 6 feet or more, would be a far better viewpoint for good perspective and rendition of features.

2 1/4 square cameras were the weapon of choice for wedding and portrait photographers for many years. with Rollies at the summit.
It was only very late in the day that hasselblads and mamiyas came on the scene with interchangeable lenses.. But the tele rollie still held its position for portraiture.

2 1/4 square was ideal because there was no need to swap from portrait to landscape, both could be composed in the same orientation.
 
chrism8 said:
Have you looked at Pentax 645, excellent in their day, lenses good value and plentiful. both from the US and Jpn

Chris
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Have you looked at the prices? :eek:
The OP has a budget, mentioned in the first post. :)
 
I think a C330 and lens would be difficult to pick up in budget but a C3 and the older 80mm should be doable. I had a C220 and the older 80mm for a while and although much more basic they performed very well. The C3 and C33 are heavier but not noticeably.
 
I'm with Terry on this one as the standard 75/80mm is more for half and full body portraits, since it will tend to accentuate noses if you go in close on a head and shoulders or tight head shot, unless that's the look you are after? I've never actually dealt with them, but Collectible Cameras seem to have a good reputation and tend to have a decent selection of reasonably priced MF cameras. I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss your requirements once you narrow it down. http://www.collectablecameras.com/cameralist.htm
 
Hallsy said:
Ideally I would like to be able to use it for portrait as well as general candid/landscape/architectual - but above all, it will be a fun camera - so size/weight/limitations are not such an issue.

It seems that out of the TLR's, most can't focus close enough for portrait, other than the Mamiya C series.
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What do you mean focus close enough for portrait? Are you trying to do portraits of humans or something else? You are not supposed to get that close ... but with the bellows you can do macro(ish) photography so I am not sure about not focusing close enough.
 
mdjchat said:
First question would be what image format would you prefer? Square or rectangular? That could be your answer.

To use the 645 in portrait orientation would be easiest if it came with a prism (and a grip ideally). Many do come with a prism though.

The C330 has the obvious issues regarding parallax at close focus and if you intend to use it for landscape photography it would be difficult to use with polarising filters and graduated filters. If you intend to use flash the leaf shutter of the C330 would allow you to sync at any shutter speed which is a benefit.

Whichever one you choose I think that you will enjoy using it. They are both good cameras with great lenses. Not sure whether one would be cheaper to buy extra lenses and accessories for, possibly the 645 as it was such a popular entry level camera into medium format and used by many schools/ colleges so there's plenty of used kit knocking around.

I'm not sure about how close they focus but have you looked at the Bronica S2a? It's an older series of 6x6 SLR's but they tend to be fairly inexpensive. Ed Worthington (the 6 million p man) has one and has blogged about it/ featured it on his Instagram regularly. He has also reviewed it for Emulsive I think. The Nikkor lenses (usually comes with a 75mm Nikkor as standard) have a good reputation. They have a top shutter speed of 1/1000 of a second because they use a focal plane shutter like the Mamiya 645.

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Talk Photography Forums mobile app
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To my knowledge the C330 do have a paralax compensation indicator and will Focus closer than other tlr's though fine closeup lenses for rolleiflex/yashica/Minolta etc does exist.
A RB seems to be and alternative too and it focusses with Bellows like the C series
 
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soeren said:
To my knowledge the C330 do have a paralax compensation indicator and will Focus closer than other tlr's though fine closeup lenses for rolleiflex/yashica/Minolta etc does exist.
A RB seems to be and alternative too and it focusses with Bellows like the C series
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Yes I understand that it should have automatic parallax correction. I haven't used one but I think that a line moves on the focus screen to indicate parallax. If I understand correctly this means that you have to compose with only a part of the screen rather than using all the screen so you can't see everything that you are framing? I hope that I've explained myself well enough to be understood.

I would have suggested the RB67 but I think that they are mostly outside of the OP's budget. eBay prices look to be £300 to £400 or so for a basic set up. I'm sure that it's possible to get lucky and find one for less than £150 but not on a regular basis.
 
For head and shoulders a 85mm to 100mm lens on 35mm is about right, and for 6X7 camera it would be 180mm lens..so for 645 it would be roughly 120mm to 150mm.
 
Yes, you can use the parallax correction in the viewing screen but is definitely a faff. However with the paramender it makes setting up the shot easier.....so long as you remember to wind it up after composing, something I forget to do on a regular basis. :thinking:
 
I think you may struggle to meet your criteria for that budget.

I would suggest you look at a Rolleicord.
 
If going for either of the suggested cameras, I'd certainly agree that a lens longer than normal would be better for portraits. Any closer than around 6 feet, and you'll get eh "bulbous nose" effect. Sometimes you can get away with this, eg if the subject as a slim nose, but it will certainly accentuate the nose. You can see this effect win many phone selfies. So as has been suggested a lens over 100 mm would be desirable. I suggest that puts the combo out of budget. An alternative, as suggested, would be a more budget fixed lens TLR like the Rolleicord, Minolta Autocord or various of the Yashicas. Then use the real estate in your 6*6 image to crop to your heart's content. Otherwise, save up a few more pennies.

On the TLR vs SLR question, mirror slap can be an issue, so you can handhold most TLRs at much lower shutter speeds than the comparable SLRs. Likewise, trying to use 645 in portrait format really requires a prism, and is probably still a faff because of the sheer weight of the camera sitting sideways. A Bronica SQ would give the square aspect ratio of TLRs and remove this as an issue, and give you interchangeable backs as well (most of the Mamiya 645s don't have interchangeable backs).
 
Hope it doesn't seem like I'm hijacking this thread but do you reckon these are worth £400, it's a Bronica SQ-A with 50mm, 80mm, 110mm and 250mm lenses and accessories.thumb_461993_product_catalog_large.jpegthumb_461996_product_catalog_large.jpegthumb_461995_product_catalog_large.jpegthumb_461992_product_catalog_large.jpegthumb_461991_product_catalog_large.jpeg
 
Wow - thanks for all of the comments guys!!

To cover a few points that have been brought up.....

Negative size, this would make for an easy deciding factor, but to be honest I have no real preference in 6 x 4.5 or 6 x 6 - they both have their pros and cons for me. I suppose 6x6 could edge it, if only for the reason that I only own one other square format camera, so it would make a change from most of my other cameras - but it's not a deal breaker.

As for minimum focal distance, I perhaps didn't explain myself well. I agree that for a good head shot type portrait, with flattering perspective, you'd be best with an 85-100mm full frame equivalent. However, I would argue that you can get close enough with a 50mm FF lens for a reasonable half body shot, without the perspective looking too odd, with say around 1m focus distance. So with an 80mm on 645 being similar to 50mm on FF, that was what I meant by being usable for portrait - not ideal, but possible. I take the advice that I would probably need a normal lens, as well as a mid telephoto to cover more scenarios - at least that backs up my choice of an interchangeable lens MF body.

I had considered the Pentax 645, but looking around on ebay, they seem to sell for a lot more than the Mamiya 645's so I looked no further. On the subject of budget, £150 is not a fixed budget, but I have a seen quite a few 645's with 80mm lens sell for around that figure - likewise, C220 & C330 can be had for sub £200 from what I have seen. I missed a nice C330 earlier today that sold for £185.

I will have a look at the Bronica SQ also.

Thanks for all of the advice so far, still some points for me to consider - I'll keep an eye out and see what comes up for sale :)
 
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simon ess said:
The lenses alone would get you to £400. If that 110mm is an f4.5 then Wow! I bet it won't be though.
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I put it on my credit card and chose to collect from store, that way I can check it when I collect it. It was a local Cash Converters, I was searching through their stock online.
 
Either way, it's a good buy.

I have a very similar set up. mine's the SQ-B and I also have a 40mm lens.

Fantastic bit of kit.
 
All Photo Lenses only mention the 110mm one in F4 though they don't have the 250mm in their database by the look of it
 
Sounds like a good deal Manwithacam (y)

On the subject of Bronica, is the older S2 or S2a worth a look at all? Had been looking at ETRS's mainly, but seen a few of these earlier 6x6 bodies pop up for sale.
 
Well, all this FF comparative nonsense does my box in, I know its how people brought up with it try to get a handle on what they can expect from larger formats, but it is only a rough guide....very rough, there are too many other factors to consider, some may be relevant and some not depending on what you want to do.
So I'm just gonna post a head/shoulderish shot with detail.
This is uncropped 6x6
Bronica EC focal plane SLR
75mm lens
Dunno what the f/stop was but I reckon F/4
Natural light and a shooting distance of 18 inches
For portaits, 18inches is too close, the perspective is fine, there is no distortion but to fill the frame you are blocking light that would normally reach the subject, you're also in somebody's face which can get awkward, if you are hand holding then movement and centering becomes tricky, a reversed view on the focus screen ain't helpful either.
Yes its possible to shoot portraits on 6x6 with a standard lens 75/80, no there won't be problems with perspective, yes there will be problems with proximity to subject.

2afwxgh.jpg


The Bronica will focus a lot closer, some cameras like RF's due to the limitations of their design, won't focus even this close
 
Hallsy said:
Sounds like a good deal Manwithacam (y)

On the subject of Bronica, is the older S2 or S2a worth a look at all? Had been looking at ETRS's mainly, but seen a few of these earlier 6x6 bodies pop up for sale.
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This is my first.
 
Thanks Joxby - that's a very helpful example.

Sorry for talking in FF/35mm equivalents, but having minimal experience of medium format, it's the only comparison I can make at the moment!!
 
The Bronica S, S2, S2a and EC are pretty old cameras these day's, expensive top quality gear in their day but that makes them more of a liability in the reliability department in that if the break, repairs are probably uneconomical.
Having said that, I've had a 71 EC for over 10 years, had a few light leak problems but generally its be very reliable and I wouldn't sell it, but that's how it goes with old cameras, some go for ever, some bust on the first roll you shoot, I think the SQ series is a wiser choice unless you just like old gear and accept the risks...:)
 
joxby said:
Well, all this FF comparative nonsense does my box in, I know its how people brought up with it try to get a handle on what they can expect from larger formats, but it is only a rough guide....very rough, there are too many other factors to consider, some may be relevant and some not depending on what you want to do.
So I'm just gonna post a head/shoulderish shot with detail.
This is uncropped 6x6
Bronica EC focal plane SLR
75mm lens
Dunno what the f/stop was but I reckon F/4
Natural light and a shooting distance of 18 inches
For portaits, 18inches is too close, the perspective is fine, there is no distortion but to fill the frame you are blocking light that would normally reach the subject, you're also in somebody's face which can get awkward, if you are hand holding then movement and centering becomes tricky, a reversed view on the focus screen ain't helpful either.
Yes its possible to shoot portraits on 6x6 with a standard lens 75/80, no there won't be problems with perspective, yes there will be problems with proximity to subject.

2afwxgh.jpg


The Bronica will focus a lot closer, some cameras like RF's due to the limitations of their design, won't focus even this close
Click to expand...

H'mm John cos you can make do with a 75\80mm lens esp on a baby with small features, but if you are going to take up portraiture a bit more seriously why not get the better lens made for the job (I noticed a Bronica etrs150mm PE was going for £89)..if you don't agree then it's like saying all the makers made these higher magnifications lenses for portraiture for nothing...OR you could also say "it's all a big con and they were only made to get more money out of photographers".o_O
 
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Just an example of the Mamiya C330f with the 55mm lens, I was about 18 inches away for this one.

Olympus1 by Andy, on Flickr
 
excalibur2 said:
H'mm John cos you can make do with a 75\80mm lens esp on a baby with small features, but if you are going to take up portraiture a bit more seriously why not get the better lens made for the job (I noticed a Bronica etrs150mm PE was going for £89)..if you don't agree then it's like saying all the makers made these higher magnifications lenses for portraiture for nothing...OR you could also say "it's all a big con and they were only made to get more money out of photographers".o_O
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I don't think you're reading neither the thread nor my post properly Bri...:)
 
joxby said:
I don't think you're reading neither the thread nor my post properly Bri...:)
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erm well John you weren't suggesting\plugging to get a higher magnification lens for portraiture (head and shoulders) and left it open...and I've kept on topic by suggesting lenses for portraiture for 35mm, 645 and 6X7 ;)
 
excalibur2 said:
erm well John you weren't suggesting\plugging to get a higher magnification lens for portraiture (head and shoulders) and left it open...and I've kept on topic by suggesting lenses for portraiture for 35mm, 645 and 6X7 ;)
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I think we'll leave it there Bri
 
If all you need is close focus of 1m then have a look at the Bronica etrs(i) system. They are inexpensive, nice to use and can be easily found with prism and grip so that they handle like a 35mm SLR on steroids. I have the etrsi and it's great. The 150mm f3.5 lens in older MC or newer PE variant is cheap to buy and delivers good results.

***Edit*** the 150mm is the equivalent of a 100mm portrait lens on 35mm film.
 
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