Mice aggression

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Glynn
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#42
Seems like mice, are the 'in thing' at the moment for winning competitions (BBC Countryfile calendar). - I reckon that both were pretty awful, but that's just my opinion.

I'm off to set up a couple of 'out of focus' plastic cows mugging a plastic sheep, whilst being photographed by an 'out of focus' plastic mouse........other than being crucified for using plastic, that's gotta be a winner!! :exit:
 
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#46
This is interesting; the dichotomy of opinion between photographers about the importance of image sharpness. My argument would be, how many of some of the greatest photographs in history would be classed as technically perfect and pin sharp by today's standards? Does that make them any less worthy? The consensus of opinion would have to be no, even amongst photographers, and certainly as far as the general public are concerned.

This said, it's not stopped me spending several hours of spare time sorting out and testing a 100-400 zoom that was front focusing; the narrow depth of field on a full frame DSLR provided very little margin for error, so I felt I needed to get it spot on.

So, as photographers, what's with our apparent obsession with pin sharp focus? Some might just want to get the best results possible from their kit, a bit like a performance car owner wanting the best possible state of tune and handling from their vehicle. Others, however, seem to be obsessed with sharpness to the extent that it becomes their foremost defining criterion for judging a photograph. Each to their own I suppose.

As for the mouse fight image, I like it and I'm not surprised it won. I find it a lot more engaging and interesting than something like a kingfisher on a stick, a silhouetted stag, or a puffin with a beak full of sand eels, no matter how sharp they might be! I think those subjects have been done to death and perused beyond the grave!

Mouse fight is different, it's thought provoking, it's memorable... it may not be technically perfect (I think there's a front focus issue there, possibly caused by the mice moving backwards after focus locked on - they don't hang about when they're squabbling!), but despite any slight technical failings it works, it's a really strong image, and well worthy of a prize in my opinion.
 
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Fuji Dave

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#47
All the other images are really very good, but the reason the fighting mice won was It is a first time image showing two mice having a fight over food.
 
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#48
Okay, here's where I'm coming from. If a newbie to this forum had posted this image for critique on this forum the majority of comments would have been scathing. Nothing of interest is in focus and the bright circle in the background would be heralded as a major distraction from the subject matter. The tunnel entrance is too large in the frame and the red blotch on the rear wall takes the eyes away from the action. Or comments along those lines.
Which is why forums are largely creative cancer. I have posted words to this effect before but to use your example, newbies come on and post their images which can often be original, interesting compositions but have what we deem technical flaws and they are picked up on these. It kills and passion for creativity at the expense of having trite, boring, cookie cutter images that are on a third with no blown highlights and razor sharp. f*****g Yawn!

This is interesting; the dichotomy of opinion between photographers about the importance of image sharpness. My argument would be, how many of some of the greatest photographs in history would be classed as technically perfect and pin sharp by today's standards? Does that make them any less worthy? The consensus of opinion would have to be no, even amongst photographers, and certainly as far as the general public are concerned.

This said, it's not stopped me spending several hours of spare time sorting out and testing a 100-400 zoom that was front focusing; the narrow depth of field on a full frame DSLR provided very little margin for error, so I felt I needed to get it spot on.

So, as photographers, what's with our apparent obsession with pin sharp focus? Some might just want to get the best results possible from their kit, a bit like a performance car owner wanting the best possible state of tune and handling from their vehicle. Others, however, seem to be obsessed with sharpness to the extent that it becomes their foremost defining criterion for judging a photograph. Each to their own I suppose.

As for the mouse fight image, I like it and I'm not surprised it won. I find it a lot more engaging and interesting than something like a kingfisher on a stick, a silhouetted stag, or a puffin with a beak full of sand eels, no matter how sharp they might be! I think those subjects have been done to death and perused beyond the grave!

Mouse fight is different, it's thought provoking, it's memorable... it may not be technically perfect (I think there's a front focus issue there, possibly caused by the mice moving backwards after focus locked on - they don't hang about when they're squabbling!), but despite any slight technical failings it works, it's a really strong image, and well worthy of a prize in my opinion.
I heard an analogy recently that could be somewhat related. It went something like, Audiophiles use music to listen to their hi-fi where a music lover use their hi-fi to listen to music. In a similar way that some people use their kit to get the best possible technical results and go down a list of check boxes to see if an image work or not.

No blown highlights? Check
On a third? Check
No blocked shadows? Check
Did you use hyperlocal to make sure everything is as razor sharp as it could possibly be? Check.

Ok it works. It's boring as sin but it works.

Where's the passion? Where's the creative flair?
Then we get to the people who say, "I could have done that better". Could you? But you didn't. This person got off their ass, put hours into creating something, failed many times until they got a result they were happy with whilst you sat on your arse and criticised other people not the internet. Way to go.

There are so many books here on my shelves that are full of timeless, beautiful imagery that would indeed be completely ripped to shreds if they came and posted it on this (or one of many) forum.
 
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#49
The thing is that we are all different and it's natural to see things in terms of our differing likes and dislikes.
Is this a bad thing?
Is it necessary to berate one another or belittle another's photography likes?
Everyone will have their own opinions, it doesn't have to be a battle :)
 
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#50
Perhaps it’s just that a brilliant image doesn’t have to be razor sharp/ perfectly in focus/ on a third etc.... it is just a great image..... if it isn’t great ( most aren’t) then if it’s razor sharp/ perfectly in focus/ on a third etc.... it satisfies the non creative element (sorry.... that sounds a bit harsh and I don’t mean it to but I’m sure you know what I mean)
 
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TheBigYin

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#51
Perhaps it’s just that a brilliant image doesn’t have to be razor sharp/ perfectly in focus/ on a third etc.... it is just a great image..... if it isn’t great ( most aren’t) then if it’s razor sharp/ perfectly in focus/ on a third etc.... it satisfies the non creative element (sorry.... that sounds a bit harsh and I don’t mean it to but I’m sure you know what I mean)
“There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.” Ansel Adams
 

Fuji Dave

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#54

Cobra

Mr. Floyd
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#55
Surely the tail would be curled up or something,
The mouse is using it as a balancing tool, and bracing itself against the floor, to stopped being pushed over.
They aren't prehensile but have a lot of uses ;)
 
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#56
The mouse is using it as a balancing tool, and bracing itself against the floor, to stopped being pushed over.
They aren't prehensile but have a lot of uses ;)
Well you live and learn (y)
 

Fuji Dave

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#58
Yes, it is like that to stop it toppling over. ;)
The tail is fine, but as it`s really Play-Doh it will stick to the cold ground nicely :D
 
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#59
I'm just trying to clarify that it is in FACT someone else's image - simple enough question - you made a bold accusation in your post
lets see some proof please?

Now reported to Mods
Me or the OP?

If me you're an idiot.
 
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#61
Les is not an idiot :p
Does that mean he didn't report me? Because that might not preclude him from being an idiot. ;)

Anyway. I'm outta here. Got some pics to process.
 
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#62
The thing is that we are all different and it's natural to see things in terms of our differing likes and dislikes.
Is this a bad thing?
Is it necessary to berate one another or belittle another's photography likes?
Everyone will have their own opinions, it doesn't have to be a battle :)

I agree with every single word of that mate cool post Roger!!

Oh and cheers for the reply in lew of Jon ( and you too Dave).

Ahh street photography, alot goes over my head here lads hey ho. :LOL:

I still find it strange that folks use this thing about an image maker going back somewhere for multiple attempts to make an image before a reward comes as some form of kudos ie it somehow makes an image better. It has always seemed to me that photography is an individual journey

Spending time even lying in a tube station is part of that individual journey. I tend to make images of wild thangs my images aren't better than any one else's cause me subject is wild or because I spent loadsa time crawling about in a field , it makes no difference. I scrubble about in the mud with hares or deer cause I enjoy the challenge,I enjoy their company I adore the solitude it's very simply ALL for me . Sure one hopes that if one does it enough ie practises one e might learn and sure make a better quality of image ( what ever the hell that is) , but all that is personal not a thing of kudos

I think folks miss out on the journey ,we all take don't enjoy that enough focus on that enjoyment enough Sure the reward in all this is an image and if that image is struggled for a bit the personal reward is plausibly higher,but it's a personal reward nowt else, Say an image took me weeks to make the fact I took weeks to nab it doesn't translate to a viewer they only know if I tell them it isn't ever evident in the actual picture

I like the image of the mice fighting for it's uniqueness , although I sort of feel the tog could have got more . The words accompanying the image state he is seeing a repeat behaviour might not be often repeated but he saw it " a few times " before making the image and then put some legwork in to make that behaviour into an image.. So it floats my boat as joe public but as a guy who also plonks about trying to make an image of beasties not so much. becuase I really thank there was more to be had. I think the question marks ie is it palydoh (lmao) could have been removed with a bit more 'erm tube craft:D

Mr B (Mr badger) this sharpness thing ( maybe the word obsession is not amiss) in wildlife image making is something of a personal struggle

I'm aware ,I'm deeply trying to retain me in all this making wildlife images lark
IE stu the member of joe public whom is silly nuts about animals rather than stu the wanna be image maker bound by rules of thirds and sharps and blown hilights . I don't want to be thinking about photography rules while trying to ( oh god this will sound lame) capture my subject's soul. I struggle walking this tightrope Mr B If all your peers make these razor sharp frames one is all but driven to .achieve the same, There is this constant monkey on my back thinking am I loosing something within that quest for sharpness. One gradually becomes aware that what one person views as sharp. another does not. Which makes things even more interesting. :LOL:

Mr B this is a hard nut to crack to look at one's own images and see the big picture not be going to 100% to stare at sharpness especially in wildlife The conditioning to make sharp images in our genre is so strong . I agree puffins kingies etc everyone has had a crack at and sadly for me sins I might one day too . Sure they are done to death I don't think ill of anyone for that though But that's the case with all most every form of wildlife image making ,we all to a greater or lesser extent make similar images

I guess in many ways that's an indication of how we as a collective find wildlife,we largely don't go out and look as a first point of call we use the web find a place where dare I say others make piccies and go have a crack there . It's damn hard being original or rather making an original image !! I don't know if any of us really make that grade, or if it's even possible. Hasn't everything been done now and if it hasn't and I find that mythical original frame is that enough? Is my job done as an image maker if I personally think I might have done better???


My niggle with this image, is that "IF " it was mine I know in my heart I'd feel a need to go back and have another go. That bugs me becuase Sam Rowley has obviously done enough won a huge competition so all credit to him:cool:,but yeah it would bug me Mr B.. I'm not sure whether I'm alone in that or whether it is even a good thing but that's where my head is . .

cheers David and Roger Jon MrB and everyone. A real interesting read
take care
stu
 
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#63
Which is why forums are largely creative cancer. I have posted words to this effect before but to use your example, newbies come on and post their images which can often be original, interesting compositions but have what we deem technical flaws and they are picked up on these. It kills and passion for creativity at the expense of having trite, boring, cookie cutter images that are on a third with no blown highlights and razor sharp. f*****g Yawn!



I heard an analogy recently that could be somewhat related. It went something like, Audiophiles use music to listen to their hi-fi where a music lover use their hi-fi to listen to music. In a similar way that some people use their kit to get the best possible technical results and go down a list of check boxes to see if an image work or not.

No blown highlights? Check
On a third? Check
No blocked shadows? Check
Did you use hyperlocal to make sure everything is as razor sharp as it could possibly be? Check.

Ok it works. It's boring as sin but it works.

Where's the passion? Where's the creative flair?
Then we get to the people who say, "I could have done that better". Could you? But you didn't. This person got off their ass, put hours into creating something, failed many times until they got a result they were happy with whilst you sat on your arse and criticised other people not the internet. Way to go.

There are so many books here on my shelves that are full of timeless, beautiful imagery that would indeed be completely ripped to shreds if they came and posted it on this (or one of many) forum.
brilliant post, unless you're a forensic photographer, we're artists not engineers....well actually I am an engineer, but only until I pick up my camera
 
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#64
Isn't it great that an image has generated so much debate. There are many reasons why I like this photograph. As a wildlife photographer myself, I see the merits from a different perspective, but I won't bore you.

Often, I'm asked by workshop students/tour guests about the technical aspects of equipment, settings and so on. Above all, the most popular questions being what I think about a particular new model, and ISO noise etc. While I try my best to provide a concise reply, I always try to steer them back to one thing: the content/concept, as without it, it matters little about how sharp or how noise-free an image is. Yes, an image can be greatly enhanced if it was technically well captured, but that is, in my view, secondary.

Some see photography as a craft, I see it as an art form. Being able to tell a story with a single 2D image takes a lot of foresight. With wildlife, executing an idea is even harder.
 
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#66

simon ess

Just call me Roxanne.
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#69
Which is why forums are largely creative cancer. I have posted words to this effect before but to use your example, newbies come on and post their images which can often be original, interesting compositions but have what we deem technical flaws and they are picked up on these. It kills and passion for creativity at the expense of having trite, boring, cookie cutter images that are on a third with no blown highlights and razor sharp. f*****g Yawn!
Repeated just because it can't be overstated.
 
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#70
Isn't it great that an image has generated so much debate. There are many reasons why I like this photograph. As a wildlife photographer myself, I see the merits from a different perspective, but I won't bore you.

Often, I'm asked by workshop students/tour guests about the technical aspects of equipment, settings and so on. Above all, the most popular questions being what I think about a particular new model, and ISO noise etc. While I try my best to provide a concise reply, I always try to steer them back to one thing: the content/concept, as without it, it matters little about how sharp or how noise-free an image is. Yes, an image can be greatly enhanced if it was technically well captured, but that is, in my view, secondary.

Some see photography as a craft, I see it as an art form. Being able to tell a story with a single 2D image takes a lot of foresight. With wildlife, executing an idea is even harder.
Des a very personal question would you be happy if this image was yours ? IE would you feel a need to try again. Agreed on the debate, I can't see much point in the angst but like the debate

Buddy you do this it's your day job Year in year out you present some lovely images to the wildlife forum many of us deeply admire, not blowing smoke mate you do . Essentially you walk the walk . wildlife image making is a huge chunk of your life,so your driven in many ways,not just story/ content/ concept/ working with light but also a deep understanding of the tools we all use.

The question isn't to put ya on the spot Des, I'd hope you would know that . It's genuine curousity As to how you would "express" this situation and whether presenting the image above would satisfy you..
 

Fuji Dave

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#72
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#74
Worth noting that had Mr Toad given a clear credit on his original post, then there wouldn't (shouldn't) have been an issue

from .gov website on exceptions to copyright, my emphasis

Criticism, review and reporting current events
Fair dealing for criticism, review or quotation is allowed for any type of copyright work. Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of reporting current events is allowed for any type of copyright work other than a photograph. In each of these cases, a sufficient acknowledgement will be required.

As stated, a photograph cannot be reproduced for the purpose of reporting current events. The intention of the law is to prevent newspapers or magazines reproducing photographs for reporting current events which have appeared in competitor’s publications.
 
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#75
Worth noting that had Mr Toad given a clear credit on his original post, then there wouldn't (shouldn't) have been an issue

from .gov website on exceptions to copyright, my emphasis

Criticism, review and reporting current events
Fair dealing for criticism, review or quotation is allowed for any type of copyright work. Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of reporting current events is allowed for any type of copyright work other than a photograph. In each of these cases, a sufficient acknowledgement will be required.

As stated, a photograph cannot be reproduced for the purpose of reporting current events. The intention of the law is to prevent newspapers or magazines reproducing photographs for reporting current events which have appeared in competitor’s publications.
Irrespective of the above, TP rule has always been that members should not post photos which they themselves did not take, (unless express permission has been granted).
It has always been acceptable to post a link to such photos.
 
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#76
Irrespective of the above, TP rule has always been that members should not post photos which they themselves did not take, (unless express permission has been granted).
It has always been acceptable to post a link to such photos.
ah local bye-laws, ok I stand corrected
 

TheBigYin

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#77
Worth noting that had Mr Toad given a clear credit on his original post, then there wouldn't (shouldn't) have been an issue

from .gov website on exceptions to copyright, my emphasis

Criticism, review and reporting current events
Fair dealing for criticism, review or quotation is allowed for any type of copyright work. Fair dealing with a work for the purpose of reporting current events is allowed for any type of copyright work other than a photograph. In each of these cases, a sufficient acknowledgement will be required.

As stated, a photograph cannot be reproduced for the purpose of reporting current events. The intention of the law is to prevent newspapers or magazines reproducing photographs for reporting current events which have appeared in competitor’s publications.

OKAY, this is still rolling on is it...

We don't normally discuss moderation decisions in open forum (there's even a rule about it somewhere IIRC) , and I'm NOT going to discuss the contents of this post, it's merely to try and clarify things...

but, as there's some confusion, let me try and explain our processes behind the scenes...

Had the complete photo and a link to source been posted, with a comment that credited the owner and invited discussion of the photo and it's merits then we'd have been fine with it to be honest. Geof's "time out on the naughty step" was for

a) posting a cropped photograph to remove the owners copyright message (which is a big no-no in anyone's books - the owner would probably get double or more in reparations because of this...)

b) phrasing his post in a manner that caused other people to think that he was the person winning the competition - potential mis-representation at worst, though we actually considered it more of an "un-thinking act", so he was probably treated a little more leniently than otherwise - certainly in a situation where a new member had posted in this manner, they'd have been permabanned for it.



Irrespective of the above, TP rule has always been that members should not post photos which they themselves did not take, (unless express permission has been granted).
It has always been acceptable to post a link to such photos.
That's it in a nutshell, yes, though we do also treat each case on it's merits, and, if properly attributed, there would be no real issue with discussing it as a news item. However, when the discussion veers towards potential libelous remarks about the image, or the nature of the subject, we strongly suggest not going there...



ah local bye-laws, ok I stand corrected
They're more like guidelines.... (/pirate off)

and always remember the last line in the posted rules of the forum...

Please note : The spirit of the rules will always overrule the literal wording.

and the last line in the detailed rules

Moderating decisions are not up for public discussion or debate.
Contact the Moderation Team privately using the Contact Us link below.
 
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#78
I hope Geof is allowed back soon. He doesn't strike me as a troublemaker - unlike myself. :LOL:

And I enjoy looking at his own pictures when I spot them. :)
 
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