Mirorless Upgrade or not?

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Morning All,

It's been some time since i've been on TP but pop in now and then for a read. I'm not fully up to date nowadays so was looking for some advice - but first some history.

Many moons ago my main use was motorsport but i moved away from that and then it was predominantly airsoft as i was a marshal at a local site. I've been a Canon user throughout, starting with a 30D, then a couple of 1D2n's that were eventually replaced by 1D3's and finally i dropped one body to end up with a 1D4 which i currently still have.

On the glass front it's a old but still superb 300/2.8L that is mostly left in the bag these days as the 100-400L II is took it's place. Then there's a 135L, 24-105L, a battered 70-200L, a Samyang 8mm and a Sigma 15-30EX plus both the 1.4 and 2x mk2 TC's. I also have a couple of 580EX Flashes. So, im pretty well invested in the Canon world.

As the 1D4 is on the bulky heavy side and not ideal for travel, i picked up a Sony RX100VI last year to replace the old Powershot G11 i used to take on holiday. SWMBO now has domain over the RX.

Now i find myself looking for something a bit more all round that i could still take on hols and stuff as the 1D4 is not a realistic proposition these days. I also do some work with pyrotechnics and sometimes need to film & take photos so i'm bearing this in mind.

I've looked at the EOS R which would give me pretty much faultless use of the current crop of lenses i have but the AF and exposure seem to be a bit hit and miss and the fps is relatively low with AF tracking a potential issue according to a number of reviews. It's also pretty expensive!

I've also looked at the A7II which seems to be silly cheap at the moment but with the Metabones V for the Canon lenses the fps drops to 2? fps and there is the usual Sony interface issues that i have some experience with on the minefield of menus in the RX.

Finally there's the A7III which with a Metabones V looks to tick a lot of boxes but bumps the price back up quite a bit on the A7II.

I'm toying with getting an A7II and keeping the 1D4 until the A7III's drop in price and then chopping both in for one as the III does seem to be the better option but then i wonder if i should just go all in for the III. Then for simplicity there's the EOS R that seems pricey for the spec but may fix some of the issues in firmware or Canon may wait for the Mk2?

Apologies for the long read but any advice?

Cheers
Nat
B-)
 
Hey Nat, you can buy a grey import A7III for around £1350 making it quite affordable.

There is a big difference between the A7III and the A7II, the newer camera has a vastly improved a.f system, better colour science, better eye A.F, has 2 card slots and a battery that lasts much longer. It's a much better camera. I would suggest holding off until you have the budget for an A7III, especially if you are thinking that is the way you will go later on down the line.

The A7III isn't likely to drop much more in price anytime soon however if you buy an A7II there values are dropping all the time, you might struggle to get any decent return on that when you decided to trade up.
 
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I don't know if adapting Canon lenses onto the earlier bodies is going to be a great success or not but I think it'll probably not be and from what I've read the later bodies are much better if you want to adapt modern AF DSLR lenses. Maybe someone who has used Canon lenses on an A7II can comment.
 
If you're looking to save bulk, but keep the current lenses, surely using an adaptor + Sony or similar body will obviate much of the gain from going mirrorless?

Sony dropped the bomb this week with the A7RIV. Canon is likely already at an advanced stage with their competitor ('RDSR' anyone?). If you're used to Canon ergonomics and think you'll be going sans mirror at some point, there's probably a good argument in sitting back for as long as you can and watching what happens. Sony, Nikon, Canon and Panasonic are all throwing grenades at each other to get us to buy their new ML cameras. Who knows where this will end? If you can live with a DSLR for a while yet, grab some popcorn and keep your money in pocket.
 
I have the eos r and am very happy with it as an all rounder camera. It does take a bit of getting used to even with a canon background but imo well worth it!

I would not recommend it for fast sports and I think I would struggle with wildlife, but many have got some great shots with it. What I find is that the number of keepers is much higher than I was getting with my 77d. I have set the mf bar to tap to turn on/off tracking so I can switch to bbf instantly if it is a tricky situation.

The one thing that is absolutely amazing is the ability to use the screen to move the focus point while looking through the viewfinder.

As an all rounder it is perfect, your lenses will work brilliantly, probably better than on dslr canons!]

It has a separate button for video and photos, if you set a video programme on the c3 profile it records with those settings by just pressing the record button when in stills mode. Meaning you can record video within a split second after taking a still.

I would say rent one and have a play, but it takes a bit of getting used to so you need a few days at least, maybe a week.

T
 
>I would not recommend it for fast sports and I think I would struggle with wildlife

Really? Would you mind elaborating a little? It's Canon's 1st attempt, so I guess they're allowed to have a few foibles, but a big reason to make me go the ML route would be sports performance. Is it really slower than their current DSLRs i.e. 5D4 etc?
 
The 1D is a big bulky camera, but FF zoom lenses also tend to be big and heavy too, therefore if you really want to save bulk and weight then you need to look at a smaller system imo.
 
Canon lenses adapted to Sony will not AF as well as the EOS R EF adapted. If you want Sony and the best AF performance available using Sony then you need to go native mount. Theres plenty of choice in E mount these days, not just from Sony.

Look at FE lenses from Sony...
https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Sony/Sony-E-Mount-Lenses

Sigma...
https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Sigma/Sigma-Sony-E-Mount-Lenses

Samyang...
https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Samyang/Samyang-Sony-E-Mount-Lenses

Tamron 28-75 and the 17-35 is coming...
https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/Tamron/Tamron-Sony-E-Mount-Lenses

And more adapted or manual focus. All of your current lenses could be replaced fairly easily on all systems (except the 300 2.8 which you said you don't really use), the wider stuff you could use adapted and in crop mode with a FF Sony.

As Snerks said, there are other smaller sensor cameras available that can also mean huge savings.
 
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Cheers all.

If it wasn't for the premium price of the EOS R and the AF/Exposure foibles along with the lowish FPS it would have been a simpler choice but it seems like we are back at the early DSLR wars type situation where the big boys lag behind the new kid in the class. Sony seem to have taken the plunge and have thrown all-in which has given them a lead and Canon/Nikon are relying on brand loyalty to fill the gaps in their equipment.

Give it a few years and normal service may resume but for now i may hold off for a bit as the A7II short term route seems to be less than ideal and i'm not ecstatic about replacing all the glass for Sony which will probably run up a tidy bill on top.

B-)
 
>I would not recommend it for fast sports and I think I would struggle with wildlife

Really? Would you mind elaborating a little? It's Canon's 1st attempt, so I guess they're allowed to have a few foibles, but a big reason to make me go the ML route would be sports performance. Is it really slower than their current DSLRs i.e. 5D4 etc?

Don't get me wrong it is a brilliant camera, I shoot mainly events (competitions and restaurants) so don't need the 'machine gun' speed some cameras have. I have my camera set to focus priority and tracking, i.e., it won't take the shot if the focus is not sharp and it follows the subject I first focus on. The eos R struggles to snap if my dog is running towards me with these settings.

The camera is absolutely perfect for what I do and I could not recommend it more, with the exception of sports and wildlife.

I imagine I could change the settings and it snap loads of pics (without the focus priority and tracking) but they would probably be mostly out of focus, as they would be with any DSLR, with a few keepers mixed in. I have not tried it as I don't really shoot fast action and the settings I have mean most of my shots are perfectly focussed, with the tracking I only have to think about the composition once the exposure is set up. It is great to see the tracking of the focus subject in the viewfinder, makes the composition easier than using the back screen.

T
 
I would like to wade in to this conversation if I may, ha
I am also looking for a smaller camera for travelling and city breaks. Being a canon 7Dii 20.2mp owner with the following lenses Sigma 17-70 contemporary, ef 24-105L, ef70-300L IS USM, ef 100mm f2.8 Macro, sigma 150-600 contemporary & Sony NEX5R 16mp mirror-less camera ( which lacks an EVF )50mm f1.8 OSS, 15-55 f3.5-5.6 OSS, 55-210 OSS

The 7Dii is great for AF, fps, dual card slots, great colours etc, etc while it is too big for putting in my pocket for a day trip to London. The NEX5R is an amazing little camera which produces some great sharp images, however the lack of a built in EVF means composition is done on the screen and in bright sunlight I can not see the screen at all !
Lets not even mention the Sony menu system ! ! !

So choosing the right mirror-less is essential as I want to utilise the lenses I already own. The current crop of canon EOS R IMO are not worth the money as so many features are missing. I believe sony and fujifilm are doing well is because they give features the customers want in the cameras, unlike canon. If canon put all features it's customer want in a dslr the market will still be dominated by dslr's. It is because Sony ( mainly with fujifilm doing very similar job ) have crammed lots of tech and features in to a mirror less body. Hence why mirror-less seems to be the way to go.
If canon pump more features into for instance the EOS 250D would that not become the good travel camera !
Mirror-less do offer smaller lenses in the APSC size sensor and Sony, fujifilm do have a reasonable selection of lenses. Canon have the EOS M with he M mount and the EOS R & RP in an R mount. So now canon have 3 lens formats too invest in. I am certainly not going to by a M50 and then buy M mount lenses while I own Ef mount lenses. I know I can get an adaptor, however the small size form factor will then become redundant.

My plan is to keep my 7Dii as it is great for sports & wildlife with only the sony A9 and Nikon D500 being better. Buy the replacement for the Sony A6500 ( which will be either be named A6700 or A7000 ) and use my NEX5R lens. This camera should have IBIS which will be great for travel and with small form factor using Sony's eye Detect AF which is just bloody amazing. Then I hope to buy a used Sony A7iii Full Frame for landscape and non action shoots again utilising Sony amazing eye Detect AF. I already own a sigma MC-11 adaptor will utilise my canon ef lenses on the A7iii with just one or two native E lens to purchases, of which one will be a FE 24-70 f4.

That set up should be all I need for many, many, many years to come. For me I have lost confidence in canon delivering a reasonable good spec feature rich mirror-less camera at a reasonable / competitive price. I upgraded from a eos 400D to 7D original have been waiting years for the 7Diii which has had so many release date push backs and now I believe it has been abandon by canon. So I purchased a used 7Dii instead, which means canon does not get any revenue from me for buying a new camera.

I would love to use my furure A7iii on a landscape workshop course with one of the top youtubers if I can sell the cost to my wife !
 
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Great post exactly what I've been considering... EOS R upgrade from 7Dii however biggest concern is the serious lack of FPS. I really don't get why Canon have chopped it at its balls. I do wonder if someone will hack the software and upgrade that.

But is definitely something I will look to upgrade in the future as wanted to go full frame.
 
Great post exactly what I've been considering... EOS R upgrade from 7Dii however biggest concern is the serious lack of FPS. I really don't get why Canon have chopped it at its balls. I do wonder if someone will hack the software and upgrade that.

But is definitely something I will look to upgrade in the future as wanted to go full frame.

I think the EOS R is over priced and too big for a mirror-less camera and even bigger with some of R mount glass. What it is IMO is a 5Div hybrid with old tech put in new body with bits kicked from the old parts bin. The EOS RP is 6Dii hybrid pushed into a new body. I know this is canon first FF hybrid, however it is not their first. As they have been producing the EOS M for a number of years now.
The canon line up is in a mess, Eos EF, M and now R mounts !

I notice landscape youtubers Thoams Heaton, Brenden Van Son, Greg Snell have eos R or RP. I think for landscape they cameras work very well. However other areas of photography they just lack poorly. The eye AF is hit and miss, the 4k issue, fps to name a few.
The Sony A7iii is calling me,.............
 
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If Canon is prioritising new RF glass over bodies, fair enough. There likely is a new body aimed more at pixel peepers around the corner. What I don't get is the mediocre AF and FPS that people are reporting (in contrast to Mr Rockwell - who is smitten with R and RP). At the price point the R And RP aren't expected to compete with the uber--high MP bodies out there. They are expected to have rock solid AF and workhorse FPS, though - traditional Canon traits. If you do this stuff for a living you will think twice about further exploring the Canon mirrorless line up if you've fluffed a few frames.

The new RF lenses slated for this year look tantalising. They must have a better body up their sleeve.
 
If Canon is prioritising new RF glass over bodies, fair enough. There likely is a new body aimed more at pixel peepers around the corner. What I don't get is the mediocre AF and FPS that people are reporting (in contrast to Mr Rockwell - who is smitten with R and RP). At the price point the R And RP aren't expected to compete with the uber--high MP bodies out there. They are expected to have rock solid AF and workhorse FPS, though - traditional Canon traits. If you do this stuff for a living you will think twice about further exploring the Canon mirrorless line up if you've fluffed a few frames.

The new RF lenses slated for this year look tantalising. They must have a better body up their sleeve.
I think it's unrealistic to think that they can get class leading performance with their first attempt tbh. That being said, Nikon seem to have done a better job (at least in terms of AF) and Canon have already been in the mirrorless market for a while with the EOS M.

I do expect that the system will evolve into a very competent one, but it's still in its infancy. Also, it does appear to me that Canon often deliberately cripple some of their bodies for some reason o_O
 
I think it's unrealistic to think that they can get class leading performance with their first attempt tbh. That being said, Nikon seem to have done a better job (at least in terms of AF) and Canon have already been in the mirrorless market for a while with the EOS M.

And so had Nikon with J and V series cameras (which of their generation were better IMO than early EOS M cameras)
 
I think it's unrealistic to think that they can get class leading performance with their first attempt tbh. That being said, Nikon seem to have done a better job (at least in terms of AF) and Canon have already been in the mirrorless market for a while with the EOS M.

I do expect that the system will evolve into a very competent one, but it's still in its infancy. Also, it does appear to me that Canon often deliberately cripple some of their bodies for some reason o_O

All the reviews ive seen say the EOS R AF is loads better than the Nikon Z's, but both Nikon and Canon are notorious for crippling their cameras for some unknown reason. As you say its all in infancy but really hope R2 is a lot better at least with FPS same as 5d Mk III.
 
All the reviews ive seen say the EOS R AF is loads better than the Nikon Z's, but both Nikon and Canon are notorious for crippling their cameras for some unknown reason. As you say its all in infancy but really hope R2 is a lot better at least with FPS same as 5d Mk III.

I don't think the reason is unknown at all, I think it's perfectly clear why some withhold features and abilities from some of their kit... it's to protect sales of other kit.

Other companies take the view that if one of their products is going to lose sales it may as well be to another of their own products.

Sorry if all this unknown reasons stuff is tongue in cheek but I just felt that the bleedin obvious needed stating just in case there's any doubt in the minds of people reading this thread :D
 
I don't think the reason is unknown at all, I think it's perfectly clear why some withhold features and abilities from some of their kit... it's to protect sales of other kit.

Other companies take the view that if one of their products is going to lose sales it may as well be to another of their own products.

Sorry if all this unknown reasons stuff is tongue in cheek but I just felt that the bleedin obvious needed stating just in case there's any doubt in the minds of people reading this thread :D

Most definitely tongue in cheek, is just a shame it hinders progression.
 
It's dangerous territory to use stereotypes and generalise but back when I did product approvals I dealt with companies all over the world and some stereotypes do seem to appear to be at least partially true :D In the case of some Japanese companies there can be a management attitude which tends towards the very stubborn and insular and they can just plough on regardless. Any change or deviation from their accepted way of doing things can be resisted as if they change they must have been wrong and that would mean losing face. Canon have hobbled for years to create clear differences between products and it may take an act of God (or a real change in the market) to get them to do something different and if they do that something different they may only do it after blood on the floor meetings.
 
I do wonder sometimes if Canon are lacking in the software department. Their sensors do lag behind other manufacturers, that's a hardware problem. But it seems to me that most new innovations are in software, eye af, tracking, fps, hdr etc. Canon and Nikon are camera manufacturers, not software developers. They would be better off outsourcing this part of the business.
 
I love my A7ii. I've not tried it with EF lenses (the only 2 I have are considerably worse than my manual 1980s zooms). Using the Techart Pro it gives AF to mist vintage lenses so I have a very wide selection of lenses for it :)
The A7iii might be a better camera but it's twice the price & IMO the improvements are not enough to justify the extra.
 
All the reviews ive seen say the EOS R AF is loads better than the Nikon Z's,
Why do people complain about it then, as the AF on the Z's is very good?
 
Cheers all.

If it wasn't for the premium price of the EOS R and the AF/Exposure foibles along with the lowish FPS it would have been a simpler choice but it seems like we are back at the early DSLR wars type situation where the big boys lag behind the new kid in the class. Sony seem to have taken the plunge and have thrown all-in which has given them a lead and Canon/Nikon are relying on brand loyalty to fill the gaps in their equipment.

Give it a few years and normal service may resume but for now i may hold off for a bit as the A7II short term route seems to be less than ideal and i'm not ecstatic about replacing all the glass for Sony which will probably run up a tidy bill on top.

B-)
If you want something smaller for travel have you thought about keepingthe 1d4 and picking up a canon crop dslr just for travel?

If you aren't fussed about the additional features of mirrorless and can live without full frame on your travels, if you don't want to change systems it could be an affordable stop gap until you feel Canon full frame mirrorless is worthwhile,then trade both bodies in.

You would be able to use your existing canon glass, bearing in mind difference in field of view, maybe pick up a couple of crop lenses which tend to be small, light and affordable.
 
I do wonder sometimes if Canon are lacking in the software department. Their sensors do lag behind other manufacturers, that's a hardware problem. But it seems to me that most new innovations are in software, eye af, tracking, fps, hdr etc. Canon and Nikon are camera manufacturers, not software developers. They would be better off outsourcing this part of the business.

I think canon are lagging behind in sensors, and processors and that is before any software is applied to the mix. It seems Sony and Fujifilm make very good sensors and processors which do give their cameras and edge even it canon does write good software to effectively OverClock atheir poor processor & Senor it is not enough to compete with hardware gains.
 
If you want something smaller for travel have you thought about keepingthe 1d4 and picking up a canon crop dslr just for travel?

If you aren't fussed about the additional features of mirrorless and can live without full frame on your travels, if you don't want to change systems it could be an affordable stop gap until you feel Canon full frame mirrorless is worthwhile,then trade both bodies in.

You would be able to use your existing canon glass, bearing in mind difference in field of view, maybe pick up a couple of crop lenses which tend to be small, light and affordable.


The EOS 250D would be my suggestion !
 
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