I think that might be against EU competition laws
Nikon D810, grey 'vs' UK stock
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These grey threads are good fun! Wasn't going to add any more to what I've already said but I was quoted so have hopped back on the merry-go-round.
That's cool. Like I said, personally, I wouldn't fancy it. We all have different levels of risk we feel comfortable with. Someone further back up the thread said there was "no risk at all" but again, personally, I feel there is some risk.
A lot of people say this for "going grey" but let's not forget the basics.
Tax avoidance is legal. It's done by rich people with clever accountants who exploit loopholes etc. It's up to the MP's to close those holes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance
Tax evasion is illegal. Evasion of customs duty by misdeclaring the contents and value of an imported package is illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion
We can all sit here discussing it until we're blue in the face but those are the hard facts.
I have done,more than once, without issue
That's cool. Like I said, personally, I wouldn't fancy it. We all have different levels of risk we feel comfortable with. Someone further back up the thread said there was "no risk at all" but again, personally, I feel there is some risk.
A lot of people say this for "going grey" but let's not forget the basics.
Tax avoidance is legal. It's done by rich people with clever accountants who exploit loopholes etc. It's up to the MP's to close those holes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance
Tax evasion is illegal. Evasion of customs duty by misdeclaring the contents and value of an imported package is illegal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion
We can all sit here discussing it until we're blue in the face but those are the hard facts.
Gary Coyle
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Chris, all grey cameras are fixed by NIKON THEMSELVES or their OFFICIAL REPAIR CENTRES so that debunks that idea, Nion themselves dont give a jot where the camera was sold, they used to but not any longer.
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OK, so it really does come down to personal choice - I suspect opinion will remain somewhat polarised!
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I agree with you, but as far as this discussion is concerned, if we are buying from a UK company, with a UK address, a VAT number, a warranty provided (in my instance) by a Canon International warranty, and an extended warranty supplied by the retailer, where is the problem.
If you bought a camera from the likes of Calumet, would you ask for proof as to how it was imported, what are the origins of the camera, where was the duty/tax paid? - If not why should the average Joe do any different to a company offering discounts?
As I see it, buying from such a company is no more than tax avoidance, and therefore is not illegal, so should I as a consumer avoid a supplier like this on moral grounds and pay several hundred pounds more. I cant afford a clever accountant, not that I need one, but I see no reason for me not to take advantage of this loophole when "rich people" and corporations use it openly and with abandon.
I realise the difference between grey and so called legit imports, but only because of the various discussions on here. I am sure that the numerous discounters/importers are known to HMRC, and they have let the practice continue, so with all that in mind, I have no moral issue with making a purchase at a reduced price.
hashcake
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I am not against tax avoidance and it annoys me that big companines can get away with it, I pay my share of income and sales related tax so I expect the emergency services to be available if I need them
Manufacturers like Sony have used the transit cost as an excuse in the past as that came to light when the PS3 was launched.
Of course I do, it's hardly rocket science but has it stopped people who are against tax avoidence from buying from these retailers who set themselves up to avoid paying higher level of taxes?
Okay I get it, as a trader I can understand that it really annoys you but you can't blame the average man on the street for trying to save money when they can.
Come on you know that is not strictly true, if it was grey importers would not be able to undercut prices.
I have voted my entire life, therefore, when the party gets in who I didn't vote for, I have the right to complain about the mistakes the ruling party make.
Only this week yet again there have been more reports of the NHS failing, so much for the spending on healthcare eh?
I've not look at pricing trends in the photography market but it will be interesting to see what pricing structure Canon have for the 750D and 760D in Japan.
They could use the argument that mirror less tech is still quite new but they can't when with mirror based DSLR's, new models tend to mean better capabilities rather than the adoption of new tech as such.
Yes I do have a problem with the level of taxes we pay here, I would argue that a higher tax level should be implimented on serious amounts of gambling based on the amounts casinos pull in.
Even though I have been away from this forum for a few years I still see and understand all your points that are valid and yes there is a major warranty risk when buying from a grey importer but I doubt it has any major impact on a small trader like yourself.
On average, we haven't had the luxury of high pay rises for quite a few years (plenty are earning the same as they were 10 years ago and the minium wage is pathetic).
Our costs of living continue to rise and if we can save some money on our photography equipment, in some cases that means some people wont have to save so hard to and they can enjoy their new kit soon rather than later, is that really so bad?
Lets be honest, people buying from the grey importers is very small compared to those who buy from UK retailers, I very much doubt that we have evey single user in the country who is into photography on this forum and I expect like plenty, I never knew anything about grey imported photography equipment until I joined here.
So after all that typing I conlude that I do totally agree about tax avoidance by large UK companies, if the grey importers are paying tax somewhere along the line, albeit if it is in their own country then I can't argue that but as as for the man on the street in the UK looking to save himself some money, cheers, have a beer on me
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Love the way the thread about grey imports has suddenly become about tax avoidance and everyone seems to assume it's done to illegally get round paying taxes. I can't speak for everyone else, but I paid import duty and VAT on both the items I grey imported and wasn't allowed to pick them up from the delivery office of the courier until I had and fully expected it because I went into the purchases having researched it and with my eyes wide open. The lens was still cheaper by quite a bit although not as much as it had looked like it would be originally, the camera however was still a huge saving and I'd still do it again and again without even thinking about it if I need something.
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Ah well yes, my post was aimed at the greys bought from China/HK. As far as I'm aware HDEW are the only retailer that can provide what you've said. I've never used them myself and don't know enough about how they do business to comment on it. It's worth pointing out that some large US retailers offer grey imports (i.e B&H) as well as non-greys. I've never understood how (or why) a company could offer both but there you go. In a way, grey imports have an unfair reputation, they can be entirely legal. The term "grey" shouldn't instantly mean it's illegal. Whenever I've checked prices though, the grey + VAT/customs tends to come to the same or just under the UK price. In those cases I'd prefer the UK warranty. (Sigma lenses tend to be cheaper in the UK anyway!)
I've wondered before where my Nikon lenses (bought from UK shops) have come from. One of them had Nikon NL on the warranty slip whereas others have had Nikon UK.
A good point Darran. My Father bought his Canon 60D online. Turns out he'd bought from a grey website without knowing it. At the end of day, he got his camera and has had no problems but people can't make an informed decision when many of the grey websites don't make it obvious where you are buying from. The grey site he used has now vanished without trace.
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I've not done this at a professional level but Americans don't seem to pay import taxes when I've dealt with them, I know some things are subject to it (alcohol, firearms etc). Seems to be a fair trade off, save a little money by sacrificing the warranty support but I don't fully understand their model, on the B&H site a lot of the USA vs imported items are the same price and when you add in the rebates they're so fond of the USA models work out cheaper.
Over here there's not much point as they have to add VAT (although we seem to have higher prices comparatively around the time they're first launched).
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Can I ask how much he paid for it and has he had to make a warranty claim?
hashcake
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That has and will always be the same on here when one or two small traders get a bee in their bonnet and think we are trying to stop them from feeding their kids by using our brains and shop around to save money
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Unfortunately I'm not sure how much he paid and it was quite some time ago. He used procamerashop, who seemed to vanish sometime in 2013. Luckily he didn't have to make a warranty claim. Probably would have been impossible once procamerashop disappeared!
They were never very clear with where they were based. So unless you did some digging first then you could easily have thought they were providing non-grey stock.
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P-shop were based in HK & pretended to be based in Carlisle. (many folk still believe they were a UK company
)They ceased trading around August 2013, so anyone who had a warranty with them is on their own.
I & others reported them to HMRC & Trading Standards!
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I like to support UK businesses that also pay UK tax and if I had known Vodafone was such a tax-avoider I would never have bought my phone from them. If you want to buy a camera of dubious origin then fine, do it; I won't.
And even if the secretive Mr Coyle chooses to call this post 'sh1te' or some other such platitiude and continues to withhold his profile information, I shan't be returning to this thread
And even if the secretive Mr Coyle chooses to call this post 'sh1te' or some other such platitiude and continues to withhold his profile information, I shan't be returning to this thread
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Gary Coyle
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Ha ha, thats 2 stalkers ive collected along the way, pray tell, what do you want to know about me which concerns you so much.
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figured i would add my comments as im currently torn in where to spend my money high street shop v grey importer,
re tax avoidence and all the illegal talk, surely if it was illegal they would be shut down in the years these threads have been bouncing around (im not gona think to much about that, i look at the amount of tax i pay each month and it is a enough)
my concern is paying and never receiving, but im yet to find anyone say this has happened to them from any trader, panamoz, cotswold
if i was going for the D810 with the currently offered £400 trade in making it £2000 this is very close to the grey price (£200 cheaper) and i would 100% go for the high street,
however im interested in the D750 which is £1650 with the £150 trade in v £1250 from the importers (£350 cheaper)
the trade in value seems to be offered at most of the big shops so im guessing its Nikon derived
if so how can we get Nikon to offer the £400 trade in on the D750 as well as the D810 bringing the D750 to £1400, then i would be ordering without question
re tax avoidence and all the illegal talk, surely if it was illegal they would be shut down in the years these threads have been bouncing around (im not gona think to much about that, i look at the amount of tax i pay each month and it is a enough)
my concern is paying and never receiving, but im yet to find anyone say this has happened to them from any trader, panamoz, cotswold
if i was going for the D810 with the currently offered £400 trade in making it £2000 this is very close to the grey price (£200 cheaper) and i would 100% go for the high street,
however im interested in the D750 which is £1650 with the £150 trade in v £1250 from the importers (£350 cheaper)
the trade in value seems to be offered at most of the big shops so im guessing its Nikon derived
if so how can we get Nikon to offer the £400 trade in on the D750 as well as the D810 bringing the D750 to £1400, then i would be ordering without question
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Buy a grey from Richmond Cameras and they'll give you a 3 year no quibble International warranty. Cost £1800 (I bought one but have no connection to the company).
Here you go, and I got a great trade in price for my old camera. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-D81...070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e96f674ee
Here you go, and I got a great trade in price for my old camera. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-D81...070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e96f674ee
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I've joined in a bit late but oh well..
I'm currently looking to upgrade to FF and I'll be buying a grey.
5D3, 24-70 f/2.8 L and 70-200 f/2.8 L all for under 3K...yes please!
I'm currently looking to upgrade to FF and I'll be buying a grey.
5D3, 24-70 f/2.8 L and 70-200 f/2.8 L all for under 3K...yes please!
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Sorry thought you meant a different body. I`ll go to bed and shut up.
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No problem! D810 not a D750.
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I usually buy things through digitalrev, only problem I ever had is when their courier "Toll" decided they would rather let UPS deliver my lens rather than do it themselves. Digitalrev sent my lens DDP (delivery duty paid) but Toll didn't so I had to pay £93 to UPS to release my parcel. Couple of quick e-mails between me and Digitalrev to find out what had happened and they refunded me the £93 through paypal.
Some manufacturers won't honour warranties from imports but DR products come with their own DR warranty and I think there is an option to lengthen the warranty too.
Some manufacturers won't honour warranties from imports but DR products come with their own DR warranty and I think there is an option to lengthen the warranty too.
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Ok Paul, sorry, I thought I had got it wrong somewhere along the line and that I was stating the obvious
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I say and do whatever I feel. Nothing takes away my right to compare and criticise anything I choose. If you're happy that other countries get the same products for a fraction of what we pay here then bully for you.
I'd just like to also add that American prices are actually cheaper than grey prices here.
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I'm not saying you don't have a right to compare and criticise. Equally I have the right to think and say that whining about the UK over such a trivial matter as camera prices is pretty pathetic.
I would buy grey imports and would have recently had it been in stock. However I buy knowing full well that in some cases I'm avoiding paying taxes on the equipment and I'm prepared to take the hit if I get caught.
What I'm not doing is what you and many others do and say this and that is wrong in the UK camera market as a justification for buying grey imports as though it some how makes it ok.
I would buy grey imports and would have recently had it been in stock. However I buy knowing full well that in some cases I'm avoiding paying taxes on the equipment and I'm prepared to take the hit if I get caught.
What I'm not doing is what you and many others do and say this and that is wrong in the UK camera market as a justification for buying grey imports as though it some how makes it ok.
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Not sure which US places you are looking at for prices, but are you including the US Taxes in that? American advertised prices normally (I think) don't include State and Federal Taxes. The D810 on Adorama in America is listed as $2,006.95 (£1,967.45), Panamoz have the D810 for £1,730.00, so still a lot cheaper. Put in a location in your checkout box at Adorama, and $265.98 is added, making that $3,262.93 (£2,142.10). Still cheaper than £2299 UK price, but not as much as you make out.
Obviously you may be finding US prices that are cheaper than Adorama and B&H, which are the largest American Photo chains. Both US prices are the same btw.
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Depends on what you're buying.
Anything newly released - Yes, it's likely to be cheaper in the US. UK retailers are very skilled at exploiting the must-have-it-now-at-any-price brigade, but that doesn't seem to happen in other countries. I really have no idea why. But this probably explains why the Sony A7 II is so much cheaper in the US.
Mainstream Canon/Nikon equipment - No real difference, but if anything the UK tends to be cheaper than the US before tax. For example:
- The Nikon D810 which this post used to be about: UK street price is £2349. Remove the VAT and that's £1957. Convert to US$ and it's $2977. At B&H in New York it's normally $3297, currently reduced via some sort of special offer to $2997. Advantage UK.
- The Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 which I use as a benchmark for 'pro' gear: UK street price is £1663. (£1622 at Amazon but I'll ignore that.) Without VAT it's £1385, which is $2110. At B&H it's $2199. Advantage UK.
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Sorry about that, yes I was just looking at the Sony gear and wasn't trying to say that all USA goods are that much cheaper. The A7ii is £1170 at Panamoz and £1114 at amazon.com and £1499 at Amazon.co.uk.
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I couldn't care less what you are doing. You can continue your whining about anyone who who shares a different opinion to you as much as you like. I didn't come on here attacking other forum members about their opinions as you do. I'm just making observations on price differences from one country to the next, which has clearly got your goat. If something this insignificant upsets you then I dread to think how you'd feel about more important matters in your life. Im certainly glad there aren't more like you around, it would make for a pretty hostile environment.
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And £1449 at Park Cameras, which is £1207 excl VAT. So there's a difference of just under £100 between the US and UK prices. The difference would have been much more a couple of months ago, because the A7 II is so new, and I wouldn't mind betting it will have disappeared by Easter.
this is fun.
So how much % of a pound of tax we contribute that gets realised into the brilliant NHS/Police/Public services we get in this country. Why does Britain have a tax regime that is in the top echelon of the European countries yet its public services that have not been privatised are still one of the worst? and the privatised ones are just not worth mentioning.
how many of your local kabab/fish & chip/restaurants/bars/take aways/traders/builders/plumbers/garages etc where there are cash being handed over declare full income? Tax evasion is not just for rich people, people at every level of society do it because the tax system in this country is ridiculously high for the relatively low level of services pay back you get. and it is also stupendously complex.
so I would prefer to mitigate my tax outgoing if possible, thank you very much!
So how much % of a pound of tax we contribute that gets realised into the brilliant NHS/Police/Public services we get in this country. Why does Britain have a tax regime that is in the top echelon of the European countries yet its public services that have not been privatised are still one of the worst? and the privatised ones are just not worth mentioning.
how many of your local kabab/fish & chip/restaurants/bars/take aways/traders/builders/plumbers/garages etc where there are cash being handed over declare full income? Tax evasion is not just for rich people, people at every level of society do it because the tax system in this country is ridiculously high for the relatively low level of services pay back you get. and it is also stupendously complex.
so I would prefer to mitigate my tax outgoing if possible, thank you very much!
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Sorry Stewart I wasnt aware that the US sites are exc tax. I am now enlightened
. Irregardless it's still a cracking bit of kit even at £1499.
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Sales tax in the US is under 10% in most states (around 8% in most) so on that basis it takes a Sony a7ii to around £1225. Which is still well over a £200 price difference and more inline with what we'd pay for a grey model. Unless I'm missing any other charges in the US?
But you can't compare US prices,its a different country lots of things are priced differently to the UK prices
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Sorry Stewart I wasnt aware that the US sites are exc tax. I am now enlightened
I've always thought this was one thing the Americans got very right as everything they buy they're made well aware of how much tax they're paying but over here most people are accustomed to the price including VAT and all stuck on PAYE.