Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

[snerkler]

Unless Nikon go with an adapter than only works with the new E lenses(which seems unlikely to me) then I don't see why there would be any functional issues, they might potentially try and block third party lenses I spose but the same is true for any new DSLR body and in this case it would seem like a questionable choice if they want to court existing DSLR owners who might have 3rd party lenses plus of course it might just mean people buy a third party adapter instead.

As stated earlier I don’t see why an adapter for f-mount is difficult, but seeing how good the V1 to f-mount adapter was it would suggest it’s more difficult than first appears. Unless of course it’s moe down to the V1 not having the ‘power’ to drive f-mount lenses to their full capability.

I hope if they do bring out an adapter that it’s compatible with af-s lenses and not just the new af-p lenses.

 

[Moreorless]

There will surely be a way around any potential difficulties, but I'd be surprised if it's all plain sailing. Compatibility issues are common with third-party lenses when a new camera model is introduced. The same applies to a lot of third-party flash guns, usually fixed with a firmware upgrade, but it can be a major inconvenience at the very least. "They like to play tricks with us" as one senior representative from a third-party lens maker told me.

On this occasion, Nikon has a one-off opportunity to make things seriously difficult and send a strong message to consumers to stay on-brand. I hope they won't, but both Canon and Nikon have never shown any inclination to embrace third-parties. I don't want to take the shine off things, and there will be workaround solutions one way or another, but the risk is real.

Honestly though it seems to me if Nikon really wanted to mess around with 3rd party compatibility they'd do it with a new body rather than an adapter that could potentially just be replaced with a 3rd party adapter that doesn't have such issues.

As stated earlier I don’t see why an adapter for f-mount is difficult, but seeing how good the V1 to f-mount adapter was it would suggest it’s more difficult than first appears. Unless of course it’s moe down to the V1 not having the ‘power’ to drive f-mount lenses to their full capability.

I hope if they do bring out an adapter that it’s compatible with af-s lenses and not just the new af-p lenses.

That does potentially seem like a more significant issue to me, I'm guessing the new camera won't have a screw drive itself so feeding one though as with some extension tubes wouldn't be possible, the motor would need to be on board.

I wouldn't say its impossible though as I can see Nikon making a similar kind of marketing push to the Df playing up the potential to adapt older F-mount lenses. Probably into the realms of fantasy but I wonder would it be possible to actually make an adapter that offers autofocus on manual lenses? Contax did it via shifting the film plain to focus didn't they? could it be done with an adapter that shifts the lens backwards and forwards?

 

[Eloise]

As stated earlier I don’t see why an adapter for f-mount is difficult, but seeing how good the V1 to f-mount adapter was it would suggest it’s more difficult than first appears. Unless of course it’s moe down to the V1 not having the ‘power’ to drive f-mount lenses to their full capability.

I hope if they do bring out an adapter that it’s compatible with af-s lenses and not just the new af-p lenses.

Not sure using the FT1 (though within its limitations I understand it worked well with compatible lenses) to judge any new adaptor is relevant. Look at the Sony... early adaptors were very limited, but now Canon EF on Sony A7 MkIII bodies is close to perfect.

 

[snerkler]

Not sure using the FT1 (though within its limitations I understand it worked well with compatible lenses) to judge any new adaptor is relevant. Look at the Sony... early adaptors were very limited, but now Canon EF on Sony A7 MkIII bodies is close to perfect.

But aren’t they third party ones and so had to had to develop them backwards so to speak, so not quite the same as Nikon making their own adapters for their own camera’s.

Thinking about it though, they can get TC’s to work with no obvious AF hit, dunno if they work in a similar way to what an adapter does as far as relaying the electronics?

 

[Eloise]

But aren’t they third party ones and so had to had to develop them backwards so to speak, so not quite the same as Nikon making their own adapters for their own camera’s.[/qute]
True, though Sony “open source” the E mount don’t they? So Sigma SA to Sony E doesn’t rely on reverse engineering. Equally haven’t Sony produced several iterations of A-mount to E-mount adaptors which have improved over time and on newer cameras perform better?

Thinking about it though, they can get TC’s to work with no obvious AF hit, dunno if they work in a similar way to what an adapter does as far as relaying the electronics?[/QUOTE]
Very true. Though I (don’t think) there is any conversion electronics in TCs, only straight transmission.

 

[HoppyUK]

AF speed does take a hit with teleconverters, though it varies depending on both the TC and the lens. The more basic ones like the popular Kenkos don't do anything much apart from adjust the f/number in EXIF and transmit data comms pretty straight, but the higher end models like Canon Extenders contain circuitry that moderates AF speed for improved accuracy. In practise, it can still be so fast that it's hardly noticeable but the theory is because the image is enlarged say 2x, then accuracy is 2x more critical and since the lens is not primarily designed to work that way, slowing things down a bit gives the system a better chance of nailing it.

 

[snerkler]

AF speed does take a hit with teleconverters, though it varies depending on both the TC and the lens. The more basic ones like the popular Kenkos don't do anything much apart from adjust the f/number in EXIF and transmit data comms pretty straight, but the higher end models like Canon Extenders contain circuitry that moderates AF speed for improved accuracy. In practise, it can still be so fast that it's hardly noticeable but the theory is because the image is enlarged say 2x, then accuracy is 2x more critical and since the lens is not primarily designed to work that way, slowing things down a bit gives the system a better chance of nailing it.

I didn't notice any perceivable drop in AF speed with the TC14-III so if they can do the same with the adapter I'd be happy with that

 

[Riz_Guru]

I havent noticed any drop in IQ and AF when using the Sony FE 1.4x TC on the FE 70-200 f2.8 GM

 

[twist]

But aren’t they third party ones and so had to had to develop them backwards so to speak, so not quite the same as Nikon making their own adapters for their own camera’s.

Thinking about it though, they can get TC’s to work with no obvious AF hit, dunno if they work in a similar way to what an adapter does as far as relaying the electronics?

Sony also has their own adapters for Alpha dslr lenses, AFAIK the LAEA4 with the SLT mirror provides a smaller AF spread and very few cross type AF points, plus the size. So it has disadvantages.

Sony has done this all before, you just need to look into it.

 

[chuckles]

But then Nikon rolled out that flawed adapter for the V1

How was/is it flawed?

I've just put my 28mm f/1.8 G on my V2 and it focusses perfectly and takes a 'stopped down' exposure. What I can't do is 'shift' the focus point - but I can move the camera, lock the focus and re-position the camera - hardly a flaw! Maybe a lack of functionality but not a flaw.

As for power and the mechanical aperture lever. You still need power to move the diaphragm blades - actuator inside or outside the camera body.

As I suggested none of this is a flaw but Marketing! How else would they have got punters to buy Series 1 lenses. Ok, they didn't, but that's a whole different story

I dunno. The mechanical aperture coupling in pre-E lenses deserves to be made obsolete.

What? And do away with some of my most exotic, loved glass? Aperture levers let you poke a finger, wiggle it, and look at wonderful pieces of Engineering moving in synchronous harmony

 

[Riz_Guru]

How was/is it flawed?

I don't think it was flawed, it was not successful thats all.

 

[JJ!]

Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the F-Mount NIKKOR lenses that are part of the Nikon digital-SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers.

We got a sneak peak of the camera too, but that pic hardly gives much away!!

 

[HoppyUK]

I didn't notice any perceivable drop in AF speed with the TC14-III so if they can do the same with the adapter I'd be happy with that

A bit O/T...

And me neither, when I tested a whole bunch of telecons for a magazine review some years ago, and I gave them a tough test of a car heading towards the camera at 50mph (22 metres-per-sec). TBH I was amazed at both the speed and accuracy, often achieving 100% success with the camera hammering along at 8fps and the car so close that the grill filled the frame. That was a fair and realistic test, but also limited in scope using only top quality Canon and Nikon 70-200/2.8 zooms in good conditions. Others have reported differently, depending on the lens, shooting conditions and distances. FWIW, my conclusion is don't worry about it, unlikely to be a significant factor in practise, and in any case this is a bit off-topic and refers specifically to telecons/extenders and not to lens mount adapters.

Anyway, here's the official line on Canon Extenders, taken from TheDigitalPicture. The figures of 50% and 75% reduction in drive speed are alarming, but in practise the actual "drive time" is a tiny part of the shooting process (like a few milliseconds) when focus is shifting from one subject to another subject at a similar distance. It's still faster than I can think
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Extender-EF-2x-III-Review.aspx

According to Chuck Westfall (Canon USA): "As with previous EF Extenders, usage of Series III EF Extenders lowers AF drive speed to improve AF performance. When Extender EF 1.4X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 50%. When Extender EF 2X III is used, AF drive speed is reduced by 75%. This may seem like a drawback, but in reality subject tracking performance remains quite high when Series III Extenders are used with IS II lenses. This is due to improvements in AF precision made possible by the new microcomputer in the extenders."

Canon's Rudy Winston completes this story:

"Because AF systems are essentially computer-controlled to read and react to focus distance changes, the information must be modified so that the focusing movement (or sensitivity) compensates for the added presence of the extender. In the Canon EOS system, this is done by deliberately reducing drive speed when an extender is detected.

"Before you immediately conclude that this is a problem, understand that this reduction in drive speed now corresponds to the effective speed you would achieve with the same EF lens alone. It compensates, automatically, for the reduced distance lens elements in the lens’s focusing group(s) need to move to refocus on a subject, with either EF Extender in place. Accordingly, overall AF performance remains essentially unchanged with an EF Extender attached, versus the lens’s AF speed without an extender."

 

[twist]

Additionally, a new mount adapter is being developed for the new mirrorless camera. This will work with the F-Mount NIKKOR lenses that are part of the Nikon digital-SLR system, adding to the variety of choices for photographers.

We got a sneak peak of the camera too, but that pic hardly gives much away!!

Thats old news

 

[JJ!]

Thats old news

Not for me. I haven’t been on for weeks so I have lots of things to catch up on! When to sell the D750?!

 

[chuckles]

When to sell the D750?!

Don't - I had a good day out on HMS Belfast in London. I took my Mrs. Chuckles' D750 for a 'road test' after being returned from its shutter replacement. I cannot believe how well it handled all manner of lighting conditions - from coal cellar black to mixed artificial lighting. Impressive.

 

[woof woof]

Don't - I had a good day out on HMS Belfast in London. I took my Mrs. Chuckles' D750 for a 'road test' after being returned from its shutter replacement. I cannot believe how well it handled all manner of lighting conditions - from coal cellar black to mixed artificial lighting. Impressive.

But not as impressive as a mirrorless camera which will show you the picture you're about to take, increase your keeper rate and decrease your chimping rate.

 

[snerkler]

But not as impressive as a mirrorless camera which will show you the picture you're about to take, increase your keeper rate and decrease your chimping rate.

Or more impressive as it will focus in the dark and it has a meter you can rely on so you don’t need to chimp

 

[woof woof]

No DSLR will focus in the dark not without a focus assist lamp anyway so sorry to break that news to you but when light levels are very low and no AF will work an EVF will let you see detail that will be impossible to see with an optical system and at least you can then go manual with more confidence. CSC's do have that advantage. I can't see how an unaided optical system could ever do that.

 

[snerkler]

No DSLR will focus in the dark not without a focus assist lamp anyway so sorry to break that news to you but when light levels are very low and no AF will work an EVF will let you see detail that will be impossible to see with an optical system and at least you can then go manual with more confidence. CSC's do have that advantage. I can't see how an unaided optical system could ever do that.

I'm not saying that EVFs don't have some advantages (I'm a fan of EVF), but whether a DSLR uses an assist lamp or not matters not to me, it can focus in the dark (and pretty dark without assist lamp) and it meters fantastically well. My keeper rate on my Nikon is no lower than that of my EM1 due to exposure, and I don't chimp any more on my Nikon than I do my Olympus

 

[woof woof]

Then I'm happy for you

 

[SFTPhotography]

But not as impressive as a mirrorless camera which will show you the picture you're about to take, increase your keeper rate and decrease your chimping rate.

SLR's do this in live preview mode?

news break - an SLR will focus in the dark as long as it isn't low contrast, say a cityscape it will find focus no bother at all.

 

[woof woof]

SLR's do this in live preview mode?

news break - an SLR will focus in the dark as long as it isn't low contrast, say a cityscape it will find focus no bother at all.

News Update... That's not dark. I've seen people shooting in the high street at ISO 1600 claiming it's dark.

I think we're going off track here but compared to a CSC aren't DSLR's a bit behind at this and with a DSLR it's back screen shooting (if you want the camera to boost the scene and make stuff that you can't see through the OVF visible) which I just don't like, if you do then fill your boots

 

[Mike.P]

I have to admit I wasn't a fan of EVF but since buying my little Canon M5 I now much prefer it to the viewfinders of my DSLR's. Being able to see what the exposure will be like is very handy and being able to use focus peeking for macro through the viewfinder (plus magnify the subject) is so much easier when trying to nail detail in the eyes. Can't wait to see what Canon will bring to the table.

 

[Phil V]

News Update... That's not dark. I've seen people shooting in the high street at ISO 1600 claiming it's dark.

I think we're going off track here but compared to a CSC aren't DSLR's a bit behind at this and with a DSLR it's back screen shooting (if you want the camera to boost the scene and make stuff that you can't see through the OVF visible) which I just don't like, if you do then fill your boots

I regularly shoot hundreds of keepers in a night at a wedding, and in similar conditions my M5 is literally like shooting with no fingers. I might be able to see through the VF very brightly, but it’s focussing ability is utter s***e in comparison to its usability in daylight.

Unless it’s a million miles behind the competition, the advantage is definitely with a mirror and proper AF.

 

[twist]

I'm not saying that EVFs don't have some advantages (I'm a fan of EVF), but whether a DSLR uses an assist lamp or not matters not to me, it can focus in the dark (and pretty dark without assist lamp) and it meters fantastically well. My keeper rate on my Nikon is no lower than that of my EM1 due to exposure, and I don't chimp any more on my Nikon than I do my Olympus

Sony will focus in lower light. Especially with F1.4 lenses. You get like -3ev to -4ev right across the frame, I think this is incl A7s1 / A7rii onwards. More light you let in with these cameras (via fast lenses) the lower EV advantage you get.

e.g the D750 will do -3 EV but not across the entire frame

 

[PaulButler]

News Update... That's not dark. I've seen people shooting in the high street at ISO 1600 claiming it's dark.

I think we're going off track here but compared to a CSC aren't DSLR's a bit behind at this and with a DSLR it's back screen shooting (if you want the camera to boost the scene and make stuff that you can't see through the OVF visible) which I just don't like, if you do then fill your boots

I may have lost track of where this is so apologies if so, but if you are still talking about focussing in the dark (so to speak) then Nikon does in fact auto focus in lower light levels than the Sony's do -4 ev compared to -3 (D5 & A9 respectively). -3ev btw is very dark indeed, -4ev is almost coal cellar dark! Not sure af light levels are a function of mirror/no mirror either, more to do with processing power I'd have thought ... hopefully any new Nikon mirrorless will also be able to auto focus in such low light.

 

[twist]

Thats a gen2, not even Gen 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=zWt-NdW6nVc

 

[snerkler]

Sony will focus in lower light. Especially with F1.4 lenses. You get like -3ev to -4ev right across the frame, I think this is incl A7s1 / A7rii onwards. More light you let in with these cameras (via fast lenses) the lower EV advantage you get.

e.g the D750 will do -3 EV but not across the entire frame

I know, my post was actually a bit tongue in cheek How noisy are the newer EVFs in the dark? I know my A77-II was pretty awful and my EM1's not great. I appreciate it's a trade off of being able to see though

 

[twist]

I know, my post was actually a bit tongue in cheek How noisy are the newer EVFs in the dark? I know my A77-II was pretty awful and my EM1's not great. I appreciate it's a trade off of being able to see though

A73 isnt not the best EVF on the market but its okay for me (like you said, I can see in the dark with some noise and eye AF does the rest), I think the SL EVF is still king.

 

[SsSsSsSsSnake]

Why not just carry a torch with you ?

 

[snerkler]

A73 isnt not the best EVF on the market but its okay for me (like you said, I can see in the dark with some noise and eye AF does the rest), I think the SL EVF is still king.

I was very impressed with the A7riii tbh, best EVF I've looked through to date (although I didn't try it in the dark). It was scarily close to looking through an OVF rather than looking at a screen I think in the very near future we'll forget we're looking at a screen, there'll be no lag and there'll be absolutely no benefit of an OVF anymore.

 

[twist]

Why not just carry a torch with you ?

Good idea, get to blind people at the same time, makes for great looking portraits.

 

[simonbarker]

I regularly shoot hundreds of keepers in a night at a wedding, and in similar conditions my M5 is literally like shooting with no fingers.

I would hope the Nikon could do slightly better than M5 levels of performance.

 

[Phil V]

I would hope the Nikon could do slightly better than M5 levels of performance.

It’s not about hope; I’d like to know whether the ‘average’ CSC gets even close to DSLR performance, as @woof woof suggested DSLRs are at a disadvantage, but my experience suggests the opposite.

 

[twist]

It’s not about hope; I’d like to know whether the ‘average’ CSC gets even close to DSLR performance, as @woof woof suggested DSLRs are at a disadvantage, but my experience suggests the opposite.

Id call the A6000/6300 an average APSC mirrorless, it easily keeps up with the average APSC dslr at that price point. I wouldve thought the M5 is fairly decent with DP but looking at reviews low light AF is a weak spot for it.

 

[Phil V]

Id call the A6000/6300 an average APSC mirrorless, it easily keeps up with the average APSC dslr at that price point.

Just because you were brief.
We’re discussing low light AF.
Is that statement still true?

 

[twist]

Just because you were brief.
We’re discussing low light AF.
Is that statement still true?

Sorry Phil, I added more to my comment. I wouldve thought the M5 is fairly decent with DP but looking at reviews low light AF is a weak spot for it (this is not just the case for the M5 though, my experience over the years has shown that other manufacturers cameras have the same issue). The newer Sony sensors APSC and FF are very quick at focusing in low light, but you do get that extra -EV boost from shooting bright lenses which DPR showed in the vid I posted above where they can meet and beat some of the best DSLRs.

 

[Phil V]

looking at reviews low light AF is a weak spot for it (this is not just the case for the M5

I’d never spotted that in the reviews.
I’ve really enjoyed the M5, till I got seriously frustrated trying to photograph Greek dancing and realising it was seriously flawed.

 

[twist]

I’d never spotted that in the reviews.
I’ve really enjoyed the M5, till I got seriously frustrated trying to photograph Greek dancing and realising it was seriously flawed.

I guess just use it where you know it performs well and use your DSLR in difficult scenarios till you feel comfortable moving to high end mirrorless completely. Hopefully Canon offers something that can do that soon (if you want to stick with them).

In my case, Ive used a mix of around 45 cameras from all brands over the years, dslrs/milcs and often ran both together like you are doing but it wasn't until the A73 I felt that a mirrorless can keep up and exceed probably my favourite cheap cameras performance, the D750... I dont need to own two systems anymore. My usage requires best AFC and I push a hell of a lot in post.