Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

Eloise said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Your claim was that Nikon (and by extension Canon) can’t produce a decent adaptor for using F (and EF) lenses on a Mirrorless body. Well Canon have proved they CAN produce such an adaptor as they have the adaptor for the EF lenses on the M cameras, yes that it APS-C but the concept is identical. Arguably Nikon did the same for using AF-S F mount lenses on the Nikon 1 too thought perhaps not quite as successful.
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Wrong, I never said they can’t produce a decent adaptor, I said Canon would restrict the way their current EF lenses perform on their new FF mirrorless body because they would want to sell their newer lenses.
It’s the better and profitable way to offer something better than an adapted variation / EF lens option.
 
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Phil V said:
It’s pointless deflecting once you’re wrong.

Of course Canon are going to produce FF mirrorless, but that’s not because there’s fundamentally something wrong with their APSC mirrorless offerings, any more than Sony’s was.
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I’m not deflecting anything and I’m standing behind my opinion, native FF mirrorless lenses will perform better than their adaptor + EF lens option.
 
if the body is kept dslr size, could they not keep existing lens mount as the adaptor would be in effect build in, the distance would still be ok, isnt the sony adaptor needed because of there lens mount/reg distance and the fact the body is slimmer
 
Riz_Guru said:
Wrong, I never said they can’t produce a decent adaptor, I said Canon would restrict the way their current EF lenses perform on their new FF mirrorless body because they would want to sell their newer lenses.
It’s the better and profitable way to offer something better than an adapted variation / EF lens option.
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I may have slightly misread you comments, but it still stands that many of these lenses won’t be available at launch so they will want their lenses to work as well as possible with the new design. Or are you suggesting Canon and Nikon will make a adaptor that says “oh a 24-70 ... there’s a new “Mirrorless” version I better not work well with this one as I can so people will buy the new lens”. Sorry but that really is a conspiracy theory!

There will be better versions which come in time, but Nikon and Canon are shooting themselves in the head if an adaptor (or if they stick with F / EF mount) doesn’t work well with existing lenses.
 
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niko said:
if the body is kept dslr size, could they not keep existing lens mount as the adaptor would be in effect build in, the distance would still be ok, isnt the sony adaptor needed because of there lens mount/reg distance and the fact the body is slimmer
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Well you don’t even need full dSLR size ... look at things like Nikon FE.
 
Eloise said:
Except that many of these lenses won’t be available at launch so they will want their lenses to work as well as possible with the new design. Or are you suggesting Canon and Nikon will make a adaptor that says “oh a 24-70 ... there’s a new “Mirrorless” version I better not work well with this one as I can so people will buy the new lens”. Sorry but that really is a conspiracy theory!
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Let’s see what happens..... only 12 months to go :)
 
Eloise said:
Maybe not that long... the exact quote is more like “in the current financial year” which has started and ends Spring 2019.
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I can’t wait, competition is needed.
A Nikon A9 would be epic, especially if they kept the F-mount.
 
Riz_Guru said:
I’m not deflecting anything and I’m standing behind my opinion, native FF mirrorless lenses will perform better than their adaptor + EF lens option.
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That may be true, though likely to a very small degree and not because existing lenses have been deliberately knobbled in some way. But simply because the new lenses will be custom designed for mirrorless that, in some cases, will present opportunities for improvement.

It's not as if Canikon just decided to go FF mirrorless last week, they've been working very hard on this for many years, just waiting for the time when the technology is right and the market conditions best suit the change. They will have had a plan worked out long ago and every lens produced in recent years will have been designed with one eye on mirrorless.

Also, they don't want every mirrorless camera buyer to instantly demand replacements for all their lenses. They don't have them yet and couldn't keep up with that level of production demand even if they did. A phased transition suits everybody best.
 
HoppyUK said:
Why soft corners with adapters? There's no glass in them, just a tube to put the lens register back to the same distance as on a DSLR. The lens will then perform exactly the same.
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There's been several articles where they've used an adapter and gotten soft corners with wide angles on a Sony body, I don't understand why it's happening but it's hard to argue with their photos.

Would be nice if they're wrong though?
 
On another completely random prediction without any basis ... I wouldn’t be surprised if Nikon limit backwards compatibility (either through utilising F mount or an adaptor) to the recent E type (electronic diaphragm) lenses. That would limit it a lot, but would make such backwards compatibility easier to engineer, it would just require a new 14-24 and the “trinity” is compatible and it would cover the gamut of longer prime and zoom lenses with 180-400mm and 200-500mm zooms and the 300mm, 500mm & 600mm f/4 and 500mm f/2.8. (As well as the budget 70-300). Less wide angle options, but that’s where bespoke Mirrorless lenses would be an advantage.
 
HoppyUK said:
Why soft corners with adapters? There's no glass in them, just a tube to put the lens register back to the same distance as on a DSLR. The lens will then perform exactly the same.



Canikon will not deliberately restrict current lenses in any way, they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot. But new, custom-designed mirrorless lenses with sleek new styling and some small performance advantages will be very desirable and we'll all switch to them over time - just as soon as they can make them available and we can afford to buy them. Looks like a nice orderly transition to me, that'll keep the tills ringing for years.
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Soft corners through adapters was one of the concerns with the Sony system. I think it’s because of the ‘wriggle and play’ in adapters or not being so tight on tolerances, either way it’s not like having an integrated lens mount.

They also add size weight and expense further reducing the point of mirrorless. Adaptors simply aren’t a long term solution. At best they are awkward. I admit my experience is Sony based but I wouldn’t use an adapted lens again.
 
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niko said:
if the body is kept dslr size, could they not keep existing lens mount as the adaptor would be in effect build in, the distance would still be ok, isnt the sony adaptor needed because of there lens mount/reg distance and the fact the body is slimmer
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Yes, easily possible, but that would negate two major advantages of mirrorless, namely a) smaller, slimmer camera bodies, and b) lenses that don't need a workaround optical design to clear the mirror.

This mainly affects wide-angles which naturally have a back-focus distance shorter than the lens-mount-to-sensor distance (44mm in the case of Canon EF). Currently, wide-angles for DSLRs need extra optical elements to artificially extend the back-focus distance. This makes them bigger. heavier, more expensive and with (theoretically) impaired performance.
 
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Another death of the SLR. It’s been around for 100 years. It will not die any time soon. So don’t panic. Mirrorless is getting better but it’s not there yet. To be honest i have said this before there is a market for both. Not the death of one.
 
simonbarker said:
There's been several articles where they've used an adapter and gotten soft corners with wide angles on a Sony body, I don't understand why it's happening but it's hard to argue with their photos.

Would be nice if they're wrong though?
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Is this because the Sony sensors are actually soft on the corners because of short flange distance but are usually software corrected, but with adapted lenses the correction isn’t programmed in? (May be completely wrong here)
 
HoppyUK said:
Yes, easily possible, but that would negate two major advantages of mirrorless, namely a) smaller, slimmer camera bodies, and b) lenses that don't need a workaround optical design to clear the mirror.

This mainly affects wide-angles which naturally have a back-focus distance shorter than the lens-mount-to-sensor distance (44mm in the case of Canon EF). Currently, wide-angles for DSLRs need extra optical elements to artificially extend the back-focus distance. This makes them bigger. heavier, more expensive and with (theoretically) impaired performance.
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This again is completely speculation, but I’ve wondered if (once the mirror is removed) could not the rear element of the lens protruded to the body of the camera. That was they could keep F mount for long lenses, with an “adapted f mount” for Mirrorless.

Smaller/slimmer body is about fitting electronics and battery in... Nikon F301 while wider is around the same size as an A7.
 
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Eloise said:
Is this because the Sony sensors are actually soft on the corners because of short flange distance but are usually software corrected, but with adapted lenses the correction isn’t programmed in? (May be completely wrong here)
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No idea sorry but if someone wants to loan me a Canon wide angle I'd be happy to test!
 
Eloise said:
On another completely random prediction without any basis ... I wouldn’t be surprised if Nikon limit backwards compatibility (either through utilising F mount or an adaptor) to the recent E type (electronic diaphragm) lenses. That would limit it a lot, but would make such backwards compatibility easier to engineer, it would just require a new 14-24 and the “trinity” is compatible and it would cover the gamut of longer prime and zoom lenses with 180-400mm and 200-500mm zooms and the 300mm, 500mm & 600mm f/4 and 500mm f/2.8. (As well as the budget 70-300). Less wide angle options, but that’s where bespoke Mirrorless lenses would be an advantage.
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That's a brilliant idea and I think it has to be right. It explains a lot about Nikon's lens strategy in recent years: they didn't introduce E type lenses to plug holes in their line-up - they didn't *need* yet another variant of 400mm f/2.8 - but to create a decent 'starter set' of professional full frame lenses for when they go mirrorless.

On that basis, expect the announcement of an E type 300mm f/2.8 in the foreseeable future.

The really interesting question is what they do with the 14-24mm f/2.8. If they introduce a mirrorless design with a shorter flange distance, then the mirrorless 14-24 can be smaller, lighter, and better. (It's the only one of their pro zooms for which that's really a possibility.) If the mirrorless camera uses the same flange distance, then the 14-24 stays the same size. So if there's an E type 14-24 within the next year it means the Nikon mirrorless design will use the F mount; if there isn't it means the mirrorless cameras will use a smaller mount and they'll probably launch the new 14-24 with the new camera.
 
simonbarker said:
There's been several articles where they've used an adapter and gotten soft corners with wide angles on a Sony body, I don't understand why it's happening but it's hard to argue with their photos.

Would be nice if they're wrong though?
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I'm guessing you're thinking of Zeiss and Leica rangefinder lenses use on Sony mirrorless bodies via adapter? The problem there, and it's very real, is a film-to-digital thing and wouldn't apply to these new adapters. It's caused by the lens being very close to the sensor and towards the edges and corners the image-forming light strikes the filter stack over the sensor at a very oblique angle and causes some nasty flare issues. This can be designed out, but obviously not with old lenses for film cameras.

Brazo said:
Soft corners through adapters was one of the concerns with the Sony system. I think it’s because of the ‘wriggle and play’ in adapters or not being so tight on tolerances, either way it’s not like having an integrated lens mount.<snip>
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I don't buy the 'wriggle and play' theory. It's a hypothetical problem but we've been using adapters and extension tubes etc forever without issue. In fact, tilt & shift lenses, that are among the sharpest you can find, are designed to be moved out of parallel with the sensor.

Guessing again, but are you thinking about Roger Cicala's reviews on Lens Rentals? I have great respect for Roger but the field flatness issues he bangs on about are as much a weakness of his testing methodology that highlights it as anything else - unless you like to photograph perfectly flat test targets square to the camera all the time. It's just not a real world problem, or even a problem at all TBH.
 
HoppyUK said:
I'm guessing you're thinking of Zeiss and Leica rangefinder lenses use on Sony mirrorless bodies via adapter? The problem there, and it's very real, is a film-to-digital thing and wouldn't apply to these new adapters. It's caused by the lens being very close to the sensor and towards the edges and corners the image-forming light strikes the filter stack over the sensor at a very oblique angle and causes some nasty flare issues. This can be designed out, but obviously not with old lenses for film cameras.
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT013hfcJXs&t=50

https://kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2015-10-16-a7r2-5dsr/index.htm

Was surprisingly hard to find these again, I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. Assuming they're correct (which I'm no longer certain about) why is this only a problem for Sony?
 
simonbarker said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT013hfcJXs&t=50

https://kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2015-10-16-a7r2-5dsr/index.htm

Was surprisingly hard to find these again, I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. Assuming they're correct (which I'm no longer certain about) why is this only a problem for Sony?
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Ah right, that's something different to what I was describing above and appears to be a physical problem specific to that particular Sigma adapter. I can't see Canikon making that kind of mistake with their own brand lenses, but it does make the point that mixing different brands of camera, lens and adapter can throw up unforeseen issues with some combinations.
 
Six pages of guessing?

None of us have a (working) crystal ball so why not just wait and see ??
 
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Phil V said:
Pure genius.
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Why thank you for the kind compliment, finally you get my point. ;)
Native will be the best option for AF performance, speed, tracking, size and weight vs adapted.
 
Riz_Guru said:
Wrong, I never said they can’t produce a decent adaptor, I said Canon would restrict the way their current EF lenses perform on their new FF mirrorless body because they would want to sell their newer lenses.
It’s the better and profitable way to offer something better than an adapted variation / EF lens option.
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Despite concrete evidence to the contrary.

Utter f*****g Genius :p
 
Riz_Guru said:
I can’t wait, competition is needed.
A Nikon A9 would be epic, especially if they kept the F-mount.
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Beggars belief.

If they kept the F mount, the body would almost certainly look exactly like a DSLR. Where’s the marketing angle for that?


I’m reiterating: You know lots about internet conspiracy theories and f*** all about how cameras work or marketing.
 
Riz_Guru said:
Errrr Nikon & Canon don’t have a FF mirrorless body, so what evidence is this you speak of?
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The evidence that Canon produce a mirrorless camera and adaptor that ‘just works’.

You’re suggesting that they would never do that for FF mirrorless. It’s like guessing that it’ll be mains powered when every other camera they produce runs on batteries. Then justifying your ludicrous statement by ignoring previous evidence.

Absolute flat earthier viewpoint.
 
Phil V said:
Beggars belief.

If they kept the F mount, the body would almost certainly look exactly like a DSLR. Where’s the marketing angle for that?


I’m reiterating: You know lots about internet conspiracy theories and f*** all about how cameras work or marketing.
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Nothing to do with conspiracy theories, just my opinion and guess.
After all it’s all about guessing and speculation at this stage right, until Nikon official announce it, we will never know.
I think your just over-reacting to some of my comments.
 
Phil V said:
The evidence that Canon produce a mirrorless camera and adaptor that ‘just works’.

You’re suggesting that they would never do that for FF mirrorless. It’s like guessing that it’ll be mains powered when every other camera they produce runs on batteries. Then justifying your ludicrous statement by ignoring previous evidence.

Absolute flat earthier viewpoint.
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Yes, that is my opinion.
Canon will gimp their lenses via their adaptor on their new FF mirrorless body. :)
 
Riz_Guru said:
I think your just over-reacting to some of my comments.
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Your comments show no acceptance of simple concepts everyone else understands and in direct opposition to any evidence, so are either:
Trolling
Or just plain Stupid

The fact you use phrases like ‘Canon will gimp their lenses’ points at being steeped in the world of tin foil hat internet morons, rather than accepting simple facts that several people (including people I’d describe as ‘industry experts’ ) have pointed out.
 
Phil V said:
Your comments show no acceptance of simple concepts everyone else understands and in direct opposition to any evidence, so are either:
Trolling
Or just plain Stupid

The fact you use phrases like ‘Canon will gimp their lenses’ points at being steeped in the world of tin foil hat internet morons, rather than accepting simple facts that several people (including people I’d describe as ‘industry experts’ ) have pointed out.
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Why dont we wait and see what canon offers?

You cant deny for a fact that canon have made bizarre choices in there camera's before. more so then Nikon.

At the end of the day i want canon to have a mirrorless offering that rivals the sony and also does indeed support proper native performance on adapted lenses as half my gear is still canon believe it or not
 
Phil V said:
Life’s far simpler if we stick to the facts rather than just making up s*** to support a conspiracy theory.

Despite concrete evidence to the contrary. Utter f*****g Genius

I’m reiterating: You know lots about internet conspiracy theories and f*** all about how cameras work or marketing.

Trolling
Or just plain Stupid
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You should read your own words (quoted above).... which I will address once again so that you might understand them.

Life’s far simpler if we stick to the facts rather than just making up s*** to support a conspiracy theory.
There are very little facts in the public domain surrounding the incoming Canon FF mirrorless system, so everything is pure opinion and/or educated guess work, you either accept that or go back to a more factual based thread like the EOS-M thread ;)

Despite concrete evidence to the contrary. Utter f*****g Genius
How can their be evidence when Canon haven't released a FF mirror system with associated adapter(s) - There is no evidence regarding Canon's FF system apart from Canon have already said.

I’m reiterating: You know lots about internet conspiracy theories and f*** all about how cameras work or marketing.
You must know me pretty well to come up with a statement like that

Trolling Or just plain Stupid
The is your opinion and I respect that, doesn't mean I agree with it.

You can keep the lovely remarks coming but it will just dilute this thread further considering it supposed to be about Nikon FF, all I have done in this thread is shared my opinion(s) and you seem to have taken a dislike to them.
Unfortunately I do not have time to go around in circles, I have said what I wanted to and will continue to share my opinions and thoughts freely on this forum, you have a choice to ignore or reply. If you reply then make it constructive and not some kind of defense of Canon / EOS-M!
 
HoppyUK said:
...... but that would negate two major advantages of mirrorless, namely a) smaller, slimmer camera bodies,.......
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But the world and his dog immediately attach a grip to make the body bigger and easier to hold!
 
Not directly related to Nikon's mirrorless, but some interesting comments from Mr. Shigemi Sugimoto, Head of Olympus Corp.'s Imaging Business Unit here -- https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...ew-strategy-imaging-business-shigemi-sugimoto and reported more in summary here -- https://photorumors.com/2018/05/03/...clines-mirrorless-is-remaining-the-same-size/

A couple of relevant take away points (quotes from the photorumours / m43adict thread with comments in [] are my additions)...
  • Mirrorless is growing because as the market declines mirrorless is remaining the same size. [In other words mirrorless isn't really growing in sales, its just keeping constant as dSLR drops away]
  • Size is a big selling point because you don’t have to carry 20lbs of gear [... however in context to this discussion ...]
  • Mirrorless Full Frame can’t compete with m43 because they require large lenses.
  • The camera market has become more like the film days when your camera will last you 4-5 years without becoming outdated. [which reflects in the next comment that]
  • Camera shipments are going up so things might be stabilizing
 
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