Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

gramps said:
So first generation buyers will actually be unpaid beta-testers?
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Well I was a first gen Sony user. i don't see it that way. if you like a system supporting it will only make it better. Except supporting A7 was matter of a grand and supporting nikon costs 3.5x as much :p
 
gramps said:
So first generation buyers will actually be unpaid beta-testers?
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Sure. - Not only unpaid, but paying!:D On the other hand, which camera in the last years did not have at least one FW upgrade in the first year?

This is common practice, and the price you pay for being an early adopter ... ---
 
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It's odd that Nikon is entering the market with such highly priced cameras. Most other manufacturers enter from the other end.

Though this may be representative of the current market trends where lower end cameras are taken over by phones.

Makes me wonder if we'll ever see an APS-C mirrorless Nikon. They might just stick to FF only. It's probably better to be leader in a segment than do ok-ish in a few.

If Fuji grabs the APS-C market and Nikon the FF market, where does that leave Sony ;)
 
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nandbytes said:
It's odd that Nikon is entering the market with such highly priced cameras. Most other manufacturers enter from the other end.

Though this may be representative of the current market trends where lower end cameras are taken over by phones.

Makes me wonder if we'll ever see an APS-C mirrorless Nikon. They might just stick to FF only. It's probably better to be leader in a segment than do ok-ish in a few.

If Fuji grabs the APS-C market and Nikon the FF market, where does that leave Sony ;)
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:rolleyes::sneaky:
 
decigallen said:
Yeah, the Sony tech in that Z body (with two cards) would be great. Can't imagine how good the A9 mk2 and A7 mk4 will be with the added competition in the market.
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TBH, if I can get A7riii performance (or D850 performance) in a Z body (with dual card slots) then it's all I would need. 8-10fps is more than enough for me, as is a 25-30 shot buffer. The AF acquisition and tracking has to be good enough too, when I say good enough D750 performance is good enough for me (and I would have thought for most people). I don't think that's out of reach for the Z-ii tbh. They already have 9fps (with locked exposure and not live view) so think that that would be the obvious progression so would expect at least 8fps with AF tracking, exposure changes and live view. Eye-AF doesn't bother me but I would expect that to make an appearance on the mark ii.

The trouble is that it will likely be 2-3 years before we see it, and then a further 18-24months after than before I could afford it :facepalm:

nandbytes said:
It's odd that Nikon is entering the market with such highly priced cameras. Most other manufacturers enter from the other end.

Though this may be representative of the current market trends where lower end cameras are taken over by phones.

Makes me wonder if we'll ever see an APS-C mirrorless Nikon. They might just stick to FF only. It's probably better to be leader in a segment than do ok-ish in a few.

If Fuji grabs the APS-C market and Nikon the FF market, where does that leave Sony ;)
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I think it's just the price of bodies at the moment tbh. The Z6 is a 24mp FF camera, and whilst it's not got the performance of the A7iii we're talking the same level camera, which is also in the D750 and 6Dii market so based on this then £2k is right. Likewise the Z7 is a high MP FF body so we're talking A7riii and D850 territory, both of which are/were £3500. So I don't think it's a case of Nikon entering the market with "such highly priced cameras" it's more a case of where the market it. Of course, if you were wanting bang for buck you wouldn't buy either ;)
 
Brazo said:
What about card slot section?
Lens selection?
Battery life ?

Did Nikon win those too?
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Not everyone cares about dual card slot. They have XQD which is faster.
lens selection will improve. It took sony a few years too and it will be same for nikon. At least Nikon is providing native live AF performance with adapter unlike sony.
carry extra batteries or a power bank. I used the second gen sony just fine.

Nikon will eventually win lens selection if sony don't do something about it.
 
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snerkler said:
I think it's just the price of bodies at the moment tbh. The Z6 is a 24mp FF camera, and whilst it's not got the performance of the A7iii we're talking the same level camera, which is also in the D750 and 6Dii market so based on this then £2k is right. Likewise the Z7 is a high MP FF body so we're talking A7riii and D850 territory, both of which are/were £3500. So I don't think it's a case of Nikon entering the market with "such highly priced cameras" it's more a case of where the market it. Of course, if you were wanting bang for buck you wouldn't buy either ;)
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erm they could have started with cheaper APS-C bodies too...
 
nandbytes said:
Not everyone cares about dual card slot
lens selection will improve. It took sony a few years too and it will be same for nikon. At least Nikon is providing native live AF performance with adapter unlike sony.
carry extra batteries or a power bank. I used the second gen sony just fine.

Nikon will eventually win lens selection if sony don't do something about it.
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I was just quoting some of the sub sections that Sony won in that article. There were more too. My point only ever being that no Sony didn’t just win the af section.
 
nandbytes said:
erm they could have started with cheaper APS-C bodies too...
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Nikon's main focus is FF, it's no surprise to me they went for that market rather than crop sensor.
 
Brazo said:
I was just quoting some of the sub sections that Sony won in that article. There were more too. My point only ever being that no Sony didn’t just win the af section.
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basically the way I see it Nikon has got mighty close in their first attempt. Its a bit rough around the edges but that'll get polished. Once polished whatever little edge Sony has will be lost unless they do something about it.
 
snerkler said:
Nikon's main focus is FF, it's no surprise to me they went for that market rather than crop sensor.
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well they said there will be lower end bodies and higher end bodies coming. So they clearly haven't started at the bottom end which is where most manufacturers start generally.

If nikon's lowest priced body is going to be 2K, I don't think they'll last very long ;)
There is a reason sony keeps the previous gen A7 around. Gets people into the system and gives people cheaper lower-end options. What better way to give lower-end options than to simply reduced price of previous gen and keep it in production. That way you can just concentrate on putting out latest and greatest without worrying about flushing out/refreshing the lower-end of your offering
 
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snerkler said:
Nikon's main focus is FF?
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Sorry, that's rubbish. Their "halo" products might be FF, but the sales are overwhelmingly dominated by DX.

For example here's a chart from Thom Hogan [1], showing Nikon worldwide sales volume from 2007 to 2015. That's 90% DX and 10% FX. You could pick data from different years, if you like, but you know even before you do it that the results will be broadly similar.

upload_2018-8-21_12-45-44-png.132797


[1] http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/how-do-fx-and-dx-sales.html
 
StewartR said:
Sorry, that's rubbish. Their "halo" products might be FF, but the sales are overwhelmingly dominated by DX.

For example here's a chart from Thom Hogan [1], showing Nikon worldwide sales volume from 2007 to 2015. That's 90% DX and 10% FX. You could pick data from different years, if you like, but you know even before you do it that the results will be broadly similar.

upload_2018-8-21_12-45-44-png.132797


[1] http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/how-do-fx-and-dx-sales.html
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Whilst sale figures are predominantly DX (as you would expect due to the consumer market) I'm pretty sure Nikon said that they would focus more on FF after the big restructure last year? What Nikon's focus is, and what sells the most might be two different things? I could be completely well off target, but looking at the changes between the D3200 to the D3300 to the D3400 etc I'm not convinced that a lot of time is spent in the R&D dept on these ;)
 
nandbytes said:
Not everyone cares about dual card slot. They have XQD which is faster.
lens selection will improve. It took sony a few years too and it will be same for nikon. At least Nikon is providing native live AF performance with adapter unlike sony.
carry extra batteries or a power bank. I used the second gen sony just fine.

Nikon will eventually win lens selection if Sony don't do something about it.
Click to expand...

The type of people that don't care about single card slots are mostly enthusiasts and they're also the type of people that won't be too happy with the price of a single XQD card when they're likely used to £20 SD cards. Many pros will see it as a regression and interruption to their current workflow. Battery life and single card slots stopped me from buying mirrorless bodies in the past.

Why do you see Nikon winning on lens selection? They have no 1.4 primes in the pipeline. Sony native range is already brilliant, plus other manufacturers are making native glass for the F mount. They and the likes of Sigma and Zeiss will no doubt be adding more lenses to the F range over the next 3 years as Nikon build their range. As well as that, they have really usable Canon adapters. Nikon will only 'win' if they make the system play well with other brand's glass. The 58mm is a collector's item - something few shooters will ever aspire to own.
 
nandbytes said:
well they said there will be lower end bodies and higher end bodies coming. So they clearly haven't started at the bottom end which is where most manufacturers start generally.

If nikon's lowest priced body is going to be 2K, I don't think they'll last very long ;)
There is a reason sony keeps the previous gen A7 around. Gets people into the system and gives people cheaper lower-end options. What better way to give lower-end options than to simply reduced price of previous gen and keep it in production. That way you can just concentrate on putting out latest and greatest without worrying about flushing out/refreshing the lower-end of your offering
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But can't this be the same that Nikon do, ie keep the gen 1 around so when the price eventually lowers it gives people access into the FF mirrorless market? I'm not saying that Nikon won't make an APS-C mirrorless, but it just doesn't surprise me that they've entered FF first. After all, as I've just mentioned to Stewart this was what Nikon announced would be their direction after the restructure.
 
decigallen said:
The type of people that don't care about single card slots are mostly enthusiasts and they're also the type of people that won't be too happy with the price of a single XQD card when they're likely used to £20 SD cards. Many pros will see it as a regression and interruption to their current workflow. Battery life and single card slots stopped me from buying mirrorless bodies in the past.

Why do you see Nikon winning on lens selection? They have no 1.4 primes in the pipeline. Sony native range is already brilliant, plus other manufacturers are making native glass for the F mount. They and the likes of Sigma and Zeiss will no doubt be adding more lenses to the F range over the next 3 years as Nikon build their range. As well as that, they have really usable Canon adapters. Nikon will only 'win' if they make the system play well with other brand's glass. The 58mm is a collector's item - something few shooters will ever aspire to own.
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The price of memory cards is crazy. As I've pointed out before, in terms of performance XQD are actually cheaper than UHS-II but I baulk at the price of either. The fact that you tend to need the higher capacity ones when shooting with these high res sensors doesn't help. It's why I've not bought the G series Sony ones, over £200 for a 128gb card :eek: :eek:
 
Nikon has no 1.4 lens in their line up, to go all native I would think something like the 24/35/50/85 at 1.2/1.4 would be 5 years away.
 
nandbytes said:
basically the way I see it Nikon has got mighty close in their first attempt. Its a bit rough around the edges but that'll get polished. Once polished whatever little edge Sony has will be lost unless they do something about it.
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Lol I doubt Sony will be lost. They have a lot of technology, resource and cash at their disposal.

They seem to be setting a very high standard with their 3rd generation bodies. So high in fact that Nikon were unable to respond in key area’s.

Now if Nikon had no experience in cameras fair enough, but they have been around long enough. Where they failed was not to invest more R&D earlier on.
 
jonneymendoza said:
His getting quite aggressive with his tone nowadays.complete Nikon fanboy he is
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He's deffo pro Nikon, but I do agree with his sentiment. It's made me question my usage of two cards slots and I only use the second as a jpeg backup just as a 'what if' moment. The reason I don't shoot RAW plus RAW is speed and cost, I can't afford UHS-II cards on top of XQD. My thoughts are jpeg's better than nothing though.
 
StewartR said:
Sorry, that's rubbish. Their "halo" products might be FF, but the sales are overwhelmingly dominated by DX.

For example here's a chart from Thom Hogan [1], showing Nikon worldwide sales volume from 2007 to 2015. That's 90% DX and 10% FX. You could pick data from different years, if you like, but you know even before you do it that the results will be broadly similar.

upload_2018-8-21_12-45-44-png.132797


[1] http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/how-do-fx-and-dx-sales.html
Click to expand...

That's unit sales though, and while APS-C sells in much greater volume, the prices are much lower than full-frame, those sectors are very competitive and the margins are slim. Full-frame is a much more attractive business prospect than that pie chart suggests, if there's an opportunity to grow it.
 
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