Nikon mirrorless definitely on the way

Dynamic range of z7 out...

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon Z 7,Sony ILCE-7M3,Sony ILCE-7RM3

Not looking so good for Z7....
I always thought Sony couldn't squeeze as much as Nikon out of their sensors which seemed odd to me but it seems they were doing as well as they could with PDAF points in the sensor which Nikon DSLRs don't have to deal with.

Not bad for a revamped 4 year old sensor in case of A7RIII ;)
 
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Seems the Nikon had inherited Sony's banding issue too, looking more and more like it is an inherent issue with on sensor PDAF. This video has done nothing to alter my view that the the Z7 isn't worth giving the D850 up for.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=299ZpvbDjrg&t=409s
 
If it's to do with on-sensor PDAF then has it to do with the asymmetry between those parts of the sensor which are purely image-forming, and those which share image-forming with the PDAF function? If so, then the bands should correspond in position with the PDAF sensors. Is that the case?
 
chris malcolm said:
If it's to do with on-sensor PDAF then has it to do with the asymmetry between those parts of the sensor which are purely image-forming, and those which share image-forming with the PDAF function? If so, then the bands should correspond in position with the PDAF sensors. Is that the case?
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It will do if you looked at it in fine detail.... somebody over on DPReview looked at most of the current A9 / A7 sensors and found that the banding is down to the phase-detect arrays. :)
 
Why have they limited the camera to 5.5fps with live view?! Thats worse then the D750. I had high hopes, but alas, maybe the Z6s or Z8 will be better.
 
nandbytes said:
but don't you want to support them and make them succeed :D
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I just want to buy a camera worthy of the money and does what I need it to, I have no brand loyalty ;)
 
nandbytes said:
When Nikon goes under and Sony is the only other option you'll wish you had bought a couple Z7 bodies :D
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Nah, hopefully the Canon EOS R will have progressed ;)
 
snerkler said:
I just want to buy a camera worthy of the money and does what I need it to, I have no brand loyalty ;)
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You might not have any 'brand loyalty' in an emotional sense, but since you have an extensive and expensive range of Nikon lenses, you're pretty much 'locked in' to Nikon in a literal sense. This makes switching to Sony such a horrendously expensive proposition that value for money makes it impossible for most people. Same applies to Canon users.

Both Nikon and Canon know this. In six months time when all the hubbub has settled down, Sony will have dropped to third sales position.
 
HoppyUK said:
You might not have any 'brand loyalty' in an emotional sense, but since you have an extensive and expensive range of Nikon lenses, you're pretty much 'locked in' to Nikon in a literal sense. This makes switching to Sony such a horrendously expensive proposition that value for money makes it impossible for most people. Same applies to Canon users.

Both Nikon and Canon know this. In six months time when all the hubbub has settled down, Sony will have dropped to third sales position.
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I felt the same way. But Sony isn't going to give up without a fight. They knew canon and Nikon were jumping into the race. So let's see how they respond to achieve their goal of becoming #1 by 2020 (though at the moment I don't see it happening)
 
nandbytes said:
I felt the same way. But Sony isn't going to give up without a fight. They knew canon and Nikon were jumping into the race. So let's see how they respond to achieve their goal of becoming #1 by 2020 (though at the moment I don't see it happening)
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But what can Sony do? They can't make Canikon disappear.

The majority of Sony's target buyers are already committed to either Nikon or Canon, with a camera and a few lenses - maybe only a couple, maybe half a dozen, not to mention flash guns etc. Me for example, to go mirrorless it would only be the cost of a new Canon R body, but swapping to Sony would be £10k-plus.

That's going to take many long years to change, even if Sony produces mind-blowing cameras at knock-down prices, while Nikon and Canon just do nothing but rest on their laurels. Not going to happen.
 
HoppyUK said:
But what can Sony do? They can't make Canikon disappear.

The majority of Sony's target buyers are already committed to either Nikon or Canon, with a camera and a few lenses - maybe only a couple, maybe half a dozen, not to mention flash guns etc. Me for example, to go mirrorless it would only be the cost of a new Canon R body, but swapping to Sony would be £10k-plus.

That's going to take many long years to change, even if Sony produces mind-blowing cameras at knock-down prices, while Nikon and Canon just do nothing but rest on their laurels. Not going to happen.
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Well we'll see what they do soon enough (what they'll fail to do as the case might be)

You and I probably don't represent the entire market. There are many people who will switch given the right reasons (whatever those might be). For example many people did so when canon went from FD to EF. No one could use any of their glass whatsoever and they still went for it.

By your logic canon and Nikon will be here forever. I don't think so. I am not saying Sony will be the one to topple them but someone else will eventually come out on top. Bigger they are harder they fall. Nothing is permanent.

Besides £10K is not a big amount if I am running a successful business and if the gear would help me get better pictures hence deliver better results. As suppose to other option which is mostly unsuitable for professional use. So which would you take to support your livelihood?
 
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nandbytes said:
Well we'll see what they do soon enough (what they'll fail to do as the case might be)

Besides £10K is not a big amount if I am running a successful business and if the gear would help me get better pictures hence deliver better results. As suppose to other option which is mostly unsuitable for professional use. So which would you take to support your livelihood?
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Is that market not shrinking very rapidly though?

The days of 'professional' photographers looks quite limited to me; yes there will always be a market for 'high end' pros and some wedding photographers but the future market is surely amateur use where £10k is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on camera gear to the majority of the population.

I don't think advances in mirrorless will wipe out Nikon or Canon but I think a new technology incorporated into something else (maybe a smart phone) will see the days of a 'stills only' camera being limited?

Even today the new LG phone has a friend questioning the point of his D810 at times!
 
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nandbytes said:
Well we'll see what they do soon enough (what they'll fail to do as the case might be)

You and I probably don't represent the entire market. There are many people who will switch given the right reasons (whatever those might be). For example many people did so when canon went from FD to EF. No one could use any of their glass whatsoever and they still went for it.

By your logic canon and Nikon will be here forever. I don't think so. I am not saying Sony will be the one to topple them but someone else will eventually come out on top. Bigger they are harder they fall. Nothing is permanent.

Besides £10K is not a big amount if I am running a successful business and if the gear would help me get better pictures hence deliver better results. As suppose to other option which is mostly unsuitable for professional use. So which would you take to support your livelihood?
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I disagree with all of that, but don't want an inevitably inclusive debate. Time will tell. Cheers :)

ps Agree with Fraser EW, and it'll take more than a mirrorless Sony to knock Canikon very far. The more likely long-term threat is some majorly disruptive new technology, and the most likely prospect there is 'computational photography' currently emerging in multi-camera smartphones. It's both scarily potent and so obviously appealing to the mass market from where it will quickly begin to erode the lower end of the enthusiast sector. Who knows where that will end :eek:
 
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HoppyUK said:
I disagree with all of that, but don't want an inevitably inclusive debate. Time will tell. Cheers :)

ps Agree with Fraser EW, and it'll take more than a mirrorless Sony to knock Canikon very far. The more likely long-term threat is some majorly disruptive new technology, and the most likely prospect there is 'computational photography' currently emerging in multi-camera smartphones. It's both scarily potent and so obviously appealing to the mass market from where it will quickly begin to erode the lower end of the enthusiast sector. Who knows where that will end :eek:
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Never said Sony and/or mirrorless will topple the big two. In fact I explicitly said it may not be Sony and could be someone else
 
Fraser Euan White said:
Is that market not shrinking very rapidly though?

The days of 'professional' photographers looks quite limited to me; yes there will always be a market for 'high end' pros and some wedding photographers but the future market is surely amateur use where £10k is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on camera gear to the majority of the population.

I don't think advances in mirrorless will wipe out Nikon or Canon but I think a new technology incorporated into something else (maybe a smart phone) will see the days of a 'stills only' camera being limited?

Even today the new LG phone has a friend questioning the point of his D810 at times!
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Tell him to make sure LG doesn't use Sony sensors before he switches. We wouldn't want him making the same mistake again and buying products with that rubbish sony tech in it.
 
HoppyUK said:
You might not have any 'brand loyalty' in an emotional sense, but since you have an extensive and expensive range of Nikon lenses, you're pretty much 'locked in' to Nikon in a literal sense. This makes switching to Sony such a horrendously expensive proposition that value for money makes it impossible for most people. Same applies to Canon users.

Both Nikon and Canon know this. In six months time when all the hubbub has settled down, Sony will have dropped to third sales position.
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or not bother at all and canikon users will stick with there 5d4 and d850's

So far, it seems across the web at least, hardly any canikon owners looking to buy the mirrorless offerings. Its a downgrade for them in many aspects to what they already have!
 
Riz_Guru said:
Ermm I guess Nikon need to cover themselves from a legal point of view? :D

It no jokes, its present in the Nikon Z7 manual..... :eek:

http://download.nikonimglib.com/archive3/FxLMR0019b3M03DU2th73o8BCH02/Z7UM_JP(En)01.pdf
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I shouldn't read too much into this - it's a 'standard' caveat from Nikon.... (I've just picked this from the D750 manual, and I'm certain I've read it in others' too)

Page 57 D750 manual...



D750_AFwarning.jpg
 
I used to write stuff like that to go into product manuals. Unfortunately there's no real limit to what people will do and say and blame you and your product for through stupidity or just as likely in an attempt to gain something, usually money.

IMO this stuff does look stupid and IMO it spoils documentation and makes it look like all of the other bottom covering gibberish that's about these days but think about it for a bit and you can usually see why it's necessary.
 
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SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Or a wedding photographer
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SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Or shoot for playboy :D
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None of the professional sectors are what they were just a few years ago - they're all dead or dying. Technology has de-skilled professional photography to the brink of extinction. The few pros that are left are running older businesses with an establishing (but declining) client base, clinging on to top up their pensions. They're not buying anything. It's a pretty gloomy outlook TBH.

A 'professional' in any trade is someone who earns the lion's share of their income though that business. Most so-called professionals are actually part-timers and weekend warriors who are filling the void, alongside amateur enthusiasts that do it for pleasure (often to pro standards).
 
i reckon these mirrorless offerings wont sell well because canikon owners will look at it as a downgrade to what they already have!

They wont jump ship, they will just wait until they release a mirrorless camera that is actualy better then what they have in almost every way
 
HoppyUK said:
None of the professional sectors are what they were just a few years ago - they're all dead or dying. Technology has de-skilled professional photography to the brink of extinction. The few pros that are left are running older businesses with an establishing (but declining) client base, clinging on to top up their pensions. They're not buying anything. It's a pretty gloomy outlook TBH.

A 'professional' in any trade is someone who earns the lion's share of their income though that business. Most so-called professionals are actually part-timers and weekend warriors who are filling the void, alongside amateur enthusiasts that do it for pleasure (often to pro standards).
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Yea this seems the case.

I wont be quitting my day job over photography for sure as i feel it wont help me survive financially.

Tech is making it easier for sure to just take pro looking shots yourself using a mobile phone.

agencies no longer hiring photographers to do product shots etc. its doom and gloom lads
 
HoppyUK said:
None of the professional sectors are what they were just a few years ago - they're all dead or dying. Technology has de-skilled professional photography to the brink of extinction. The few pros that are left are running older businesses with an establishing (but declining) client base, clinging on to top up their pensions. They're not buying anything. It's a pretty gloomy outlook TBH.

A 'professional' in any trade is someone who earns the lion's share of their income though that business. Most so-called professionals are actually part-timers and weekend warriors who are filling the void, alongside amateur enthusiasts that do it for pleasure (often to pro standards).
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Pretty depressing state of affairs sounds like.
3 of my friends are between them Masonic. Lodge functions, school photography and musician photography oh and another goes around the country photographing old people’s homes
 
jonneymendoza said:
i reckon these mirrorless offerings wont sell well because canikon owners will look at it as a downgrade to what they already have!

They wont jump ship, they will just wait until they release a mirrorless camera that is actualy better then what they have in almost every way
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Having mirrorless tech is nice though. The EOS R looks like a '6D' bracket release to me and as such doesn't really interest me that much. I'm still waiting for decent real world reviews though. I can't wait to handle one to see what the ergonomics are like, as that is my main big bear with Sony.
 
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