Official Talk Leica thread

Just visted this thread for the first time in a while!

Wow what a lot of stuff!

People should love whatever camera they want, and respect the choices of others.

But there’s a few myths here isn’t there?

The 240 MP “you” bought new 12 months, for nigh on £6k, that’s worth about £3.5k now, that’s a fact and that’s called depreciation... so this ‘you never lose money on an M’ it’s just not true (even secondhand M9s have got a bit cheaper since they stopped offering the free sensor), but seriously, get an M240 new today, it’s dropped four figures by the time you’ve taken it home.

By all acconts the M10 is a masterpiece

But not every M was so right no? Again the 240... iirc scroll around the menu with the D pad on the righ, press set with the button on the left.

Put the EVF and multifunctional handgrip on the 240, it’s about as complicated to set up as many of the Japanese cameras, with a lot of menu vists needed

The M8 & 9 have lovely IQ at low ISO, but can’t match modern cameras once the ISO reaches 4 digits

The M240 has a native colour pallet not that dissimilar to all the other 24mp CMOS cameras

Leica has made MASSIVE leaps recently with tech and design, that the M10, Q, SL and TL2 can be compared to similar spec Japanese cameras and hold their ground, especially with ISO (which has always been Leica’s digital achilles heel) is fantastic

But this is a very recent (under 2 years) change.

Most cameras are capable of taking both good and bad images.

To suggest or even hint that any brand can only make great images is, well... let’s just say inaccurate

Well put.

I did make some money on my M8 however after a years ownership (around £200) so I think they hold money to a point and looking to the M9, I found usable images at 1600 and 3200 ISO. The grain is there don't get me wrong, but it's not obtrusive.

I handled and used an M240 for a bit but it just didn't have the same spark as the M9. I'll be honest and say that I can't put my finger on specifically why. It's much more refined. The M9, to me, produced nicer files from the off.
 
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The thing about not losing money on an M dates back to the days of the film bodies, and remains true for them (at least for secondhand gear, and not the exotically priced film bodies that Leica still sells, presumably in very small numbers). An M3 from the 50s (or a screwmount body from the 30s) can still be serviced, and will probably be usable for as long as there is film. An in-demand camera like the M6 will cost you about 20% more at a UK dealer than it did a few years ago (though we have the weak pound to thank for some of this increase).
 
If you buy pretty much anything at the right point in the depreciation curve your money is fairly safe.

If you buy new, not so much... especially if it’s a modern mass produced product. A few exceptions, no doubt (Rolex springs to mind)

Of course if you own a product that is out of production, but becomes rare and popular, then you’ll make money.

But in all honesty, digital cameras are a bit new to see which model might fit that case... if I had to guess... an original mint m8 with none of the 8.2 upgrades and ALL the orignal accessories packaging might be reasonable bet.... Leica do some ltd editions, that might be bankers... but then “you” paid a premium to own them in the first place
 
Not many cameras that aren't some rare edition go up in price, though. At the time I bought a secondhand M6, I could have bought a secondhand Nikon F5 for about the same price, or a secondhand F100 for rather less. Either Nikon would by now have lost something like 1/2 - 2/3 of its resale value. Only the Leica has increased in cash value (if not real terms), and its lenses even more so (my 50/1.4 has about doubled in value). Secondhand Leica film body and lens prices tend to get dragged up as their new equivalents go for ever more stratospheric prices. Give or take a meter, a film M hasn't really changed that much since the 50s, so a vintage model does much the same jobs as a current product, and can be sold for a significant fraction of its price. I suspect we won't see the same thing with the digital bodies, as each generation has brought substantial improvements - although there does seem to be some affection for the CCD models, I don't think many people would swap an M10 for an IR-sensitive crop format M8, an M9 with a ticking sensor corrosion time bomb, or an overfed M262.
 
Anyone eyeing up the Leica CL like I am? Had a play with one. Extremely lovely.

So is it an EVIL aps-c? originally i thought it might be P&S, and wondered how it might be preferable to the Q (for the same price)
 
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Yep - SL viewfinder, APC-C 24mp sensor. Twiddly dials. Ability to take M lenses or AF L-series (as they seem to be called) lenses. Nice little bit of kit.

Maybe nice but, from here...

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2017/11/the-new-leica-cl.html

"The value equation is insane. You could buy eight Sony A6000 bodies for the price of the Leica CL and its little lens, and have money left over. Or you could buy a Sony A6500 top-of-the-line model, and a Samsung Gallery Note 8 smartphone with its excellent camera, and the latest Sony full-frame A7II mirrorless camera, and still have enough money left over to treat your spouse to not one but two $250 dinners at restaurants that most people, maybe not billionaires, would consider nice."
 
You could buy eight Sony A6000 bodies for the price of the Leica CL and its little lens, and have money left over.
Yes, but if you bought eight Sony A6000 bodies... you still couldn’t take any photos unlike the Leica CL and lens. :)

To be frank though I don’t think you can discuss Leica in terms of cost... you’re always going to pay (a lot) more for the same basic functionality. Only as an individual can you decide if the cost is worth it to you.
 
Yes, but if you bought eight Sony A6000 bodies... you still couldn’t take any photos unlike the Leica CL and lens. :)

To be frank though I don’t think you can discuss Leica in terms of cost... you’re always going to pay (a lot) more for the same basic functionality. Only as an individual can you decide if the cost is worth it to you.

I think you got that first sentence a bit wrong but I think I know what you mean :D

I don't want to get into the whole Leica Voodoo "I just can't quite put my finger on it" stuff because frankly whenever people come out with that I want to slap them :D but I do agree about the cost scenario. Leica are never going to be competitive on price.

I just wanted to add a bit of... what's the word... perspective maybe... to the thought of the CL. I didn't know this was coming and when I saw it for a moment I was interested (I'm always interested in simple and small form camera and lens combinations) but then I spotted that it was APS-C and then I spotted the price and for that price I'll keep my current kit. YMMV. You pay your money and you make your choice etc.
 
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I think with Leica, if you want a digital rangefinder then it’s the only game in town and you either pay up and own one or don’t.

The EVF only Leicas are a bit harder to accept (with the possible exception of the Q which is fairly unique) because the USP attraction is far less than an M

That said of course, many genres of similar products exist at different price points (cars, watches etc) and people are free to spend and chose what they want

Fair play to Leica though... for a company that’s often accused of forever dining out on old world tech, the last couple of years have seen a lot of very contemporary cameras
 
Let’s have a couple of shots.


I think they have no exif.... so you’ll just have to take my word for it that they’re in the correct thread


9B99C7A1-9508-4646-94EB-7264F44970CC.jpeg

AFE7D4DA-27CA-44BB-A2D1-6B0862FAF950.jpeg

Not my regular genre and not my regular camera, but it’s nice to get out of my usual zone (I was visiting the UK for a bit, but back home now. Well I grew up where these are taken, but it’s not been home for a few years)
 
Let’s have a couple of shots.
I think they have no exif.... so you’ll just have to take my word for it that they’re in the correct thread
[snip]
Not my regular genre and not my regular camera, but it’s nice to get out of my usual zone (I was visiting the UK for a bit, but back home now. Well I grew up where these are taken, but it’s not been home for a few years)
The Leica CL?
 
The Leica CL?

No!

They’re taken with an M.

I’m quite vocal in my belief that people should buy whatever they want, but for me personally speaking, the CL/TL doesn’t offer enough for the money.

But I bet they’re good cameras and people that own one really like it, it’s just not for me
 
You know, since there is no teleconvertor for the SL, the CL might make a nice body for the 90-280mm SL lens :) to take it up to 420?
 
Summaron 28/5.6

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Maybe nice but, from here...

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2017/11/the-new-leica-cl.html

"The value equation is insane. You could buy eight Sony A6000 bodies for the price of the Leica CL and its little lens, and have money left over. Or you could buy a Sony A6500 top-of-the-line model, and a Samsung Gallery Note 8 smartphone with its excellent camera, and the latest Sony full-frame A7II mirrorless camera, and still have enough money left over to treat your spouse to not one but two $250 dinners at restaurants that most people, maybe not billionaires, would consider nice."
yes you could buy all of those Sony’s but at the end of the day you would only have a Sony and be missing out on the Leica Magic
Neil
 
yes you could buy all of those Sony’s but at the end of the day you would only have a Sony and be missing out on the Leica Magic
No disrespect... but you realise don’t you that when people talk about the “Leica Magic” ... that’s when people’s eyes glaze over?

(And no, that’s not an “anti” Leica comment...)
 
No disrespect... but you realise don’t you that when people talk about the “Leica Magic” ... that’s when people’s eyes glaze over?

(And no, that’s not an “anti” Leica comment...)
Only the eyes of wannabe leica users/haters....... hahahaha
 
Only the eyes of wannabe leica users/haters....... hahahaha

Does that mean that leica users and leica haters don’t believe in leica magic, leaving only non leica owning leica lovers as believers. :D :D
 
Does that mean that leica users and leica haters don’t believe in leica magic, leaving only non leica owning leica lovers as believers. :D :D

Think of Leica as a car with three pedals: clutch, brake and gas. If Sony invented a car it would have 27 pedals, for wipers, Radio 4, demister, etc. By the time you found the correct pedal you've have long since crashed and you may have got your foot caught in-between and twisted your ankle.

That's the best analogy I can think of, Leica just allows you to do what is necessary to get a good picture easily and very quickly. It's not magic, its just a very well thought out concept that has stood the test of time. The magic is in the optics.

I used to use Canon, mostly in program mode, and you get good images. The difference is that the camera is in control, whereas with Leica I always feel in control. And it fits in my coat pocket.
 
Think of Leica as a car with three pedals: clutch, brake and gas. If Sony invented a car it would have 27 pedals, for wipers, Radio 4, demister, etc. By the time you found the correct pedal you've have long since crashed and you may have got your foot caught in-between and twisted your ankle.

That's the best analogy I can think of, Leica just allows you to do what is necessary to get a good picture easily and very quickly. It's not magic, its just a very well thought out concept that has stood the test of time. The magic is in the optics.

I used to use Canon, mostly in program mode, and you get good images. The difference is that the camera is in control, whereas with Leica I always feel in control. And it fits in my coat pocket.

Well said. It still docent take away the fact that many folks on here are jealous of leica and continue to try and put the brand down........ no idea why[emoji851][emoji851][emoji851]
 
Think of Leica as a car with three pedals: clutch, brake and gas. If Sony invented a car it would have 27 pedals, for wipers, Radio 4, demister, etc. By the time you found the correct pedal you've have long since crashed and you may have got your foot caught in-between and twisted your ankle.

That's the best analogy I can think of, Leica just allows you to do what is necessary to get a good picture easily and very quickly. It's not magic, its just a very well thought out concept that has stood the test of time. The magic is in the optics.

I used to use Canon, mostly in program mode, and you get good images. The difference is that the camera is in control, whereas with Leica I always feel in control. And it fits in my coat pocket.

I own a few different brands of camera Steven and over the past couple of decades I’ve owned many more. One of my current cameras is a Leica. It’s an M. (So not one of the Leicas that has AF and a touch screen and stuff like you find on a mainstream camera)

So I understand how they work and what they do and don’t do. As you say it’s not magic.

There are many photographers out there, winning prestigious awards, covering global events, shooting the hotest fashion and the biggest sports and many of these togs... well they’re managing to it without a Leica.

I like my Leica. I really do. But i like my other cameras too. I like my hand made shoes as well they don’t have a special lace system or air pockets in the soles - they’re a beautiful simple product that have been hand made the old way with no frills, bells or whistles, but I wouldn’t wear them if I was going for a cross country run, they’re not the right tool for the job

EDIT: actually it’s nearly 3 decades, I’m getting quite old!!
 
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I own a few different brands of camera Steven and over the past couple of decades I’ve owned many more. One of my current cameras is a Leica. It’s an M. (So not one of the Leicas that has AF and a touch screen and stuff like you find on a mainstream camera)

So I understand how they work and what they do and don’t do. As you say it’s not magic.

There are many photographers out there, winning prestigious awards, covering global events, shooting the hotest fashion and the biggest sports and many of these togs... well they’re managing to it without a Leica.

I like my Leica. I really do. But i like my other cameras too. I like my hand made shoes as well they don’t have a special lace system or air pockets in the soles - they’re a beautiful simple product that have been hand made the old way with no frills, bells or whistles, but I wouldn’t wear them if I was going for a cross country run, they’re not the right tool for the job

EDIT: actually it’s nearly 3 decades, I’m getting quite old!!

I agree. I bought an M9 from a fashion photographer who used his Leica for some things (mostly for fun and reportage) and Nikon for fashion. I once went to a lecture by a product photographer from Canon and what those cameras can do in a pro's hands are unbelievable.

I also have a Leica Q that has auto-focus, touch and shoot, macro etc., the works, and a stunning 28/f1.7 lens.

Fortunately I'm not a fashion photographer, but I took a few fashion picture a month or so back. Had to use the natural light, mind you, and the models were well-behaved.

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Give or take specific assignments (eg a close up of the craters on the moon, or underwater photography) the majority of cameras can turn their hand to the majority of tasks.

Is it easier to shoot (say) your kid running in the school race with a camera that has superb tracking AF? Possibly. Is it equally possible to make that shot with a manual focus camera, a preset focus area and sense of anticipation? Definitely.

At the end of the day if the Mums and Dads that took their cameras to the school sports day come home with shots they're happy with then everybody wins. (Even if their kids didn't !!!!)

The cameras we buy and the way we use them is pretty personal, and seldom reflected in the end result (in that someone else with a different camera and different way of working is just as likely to get 'the shot' as you are)

There's a learning curve whenever we get a new brand or type of camera. There's often a learning curve with the PP when we upgrade to a newer version of the camera we already had.

Before we learn something new it seems complicated, after we learn it, it seems simple.

Each of us has a difference tolerance to complication, for example some people who can write code for unix might struggle to use the GUI of windows or navigate the sky box :D

Things only seem simple because we know how to do them.

Leica are in a position that they can make the products they want and that their users expect. Canikon/Sonuji etc have to make products that appeal to a far wider user base, therefore their cameras have more features.... I'm fairly sure that if the next Sony A7 hit the stores with only basic exposure controls, a 10 item menu list and no AF then more people would be disappointed than pleased.

Nice images, IMO #2 FTW - the way the flare is works very well, although the use of lines and diagonals in #3 is very nice
 
Well said. It still docent take away the fact that many folks on here are jealous of leica and continue to try and put the brand down........ no idea why[emoji851][emoji851][emoji851]
Erm... I wasn’t puting the brand down (more the opposite) and I’m not jealous (okay maybe a little) ... but statements about “Leica Magic” are the reason why some people look strangely and roll their eyes at Leica and Leica users. There is no magic... just a camera and solid engineering that some people enjoy using.
 
Give or take specific assignments (eg a close up of the craters on the moon, or underwater photography) the majority of cameras can turn their hand to the majority of tasks.

Is it easier to shoot (say) your kid running in the school race with a camera that has superb tracking AF? Possibly. Is it equally possible to make that shot with a manual focus camera, a preset focus area and sense of anticipation? Definitely.

At the end of the day if the Mums and Dads that took their cameras to the school sports day come home with shots they're happy with then everybody wins. (Even if their kids didn't !!!!)

The cameras we buy and the way we use them is pretty personal, and seldom reflected in the end result (in that someone else with a different camera and different way of working is just as likely to get 'the shot' as you are)

There's a learning curve whenever we get a new brand or type of camera. There's often a learning curve with the PP when we upgrade to a newer version of the camera we already had.

Before we learn something new it seems complicated, after we learn it, it seems simple.

Each of us has a difference tolerance to complication, for example some people who can write code for unix might struggle to use the GUI of windows or navigate the sky box :D

Things only seem simple because we know how to do them.

Leica are in a position that they can make the products they want and that their users expect. Canikon/Sonuji etc have to make products that appeal to a far wider user base, therefore their cameras have more features.... I'm fairly sure that if the next Sony A7 hit the stores with only basic exposure controls, a 10 item menu list and no AF then more people would be disappointed than pleased.

Nice images, IMO #2 FTW - the way the flare is works very well, although the use of lines and diagonals in #3 is very nice

It is likely the case the SLRs are probably used most of the time in program mode with good results. I did that for years. Skilled amateurs and pros will be far more thoughtful as to settings and using the top range models to, for example, trigger multiple flashes and whatnot.

The car pedal analogy is really what it is about for me as I just could never get the tech in my head. I was a much better photographer in my early years using manual film cameras. All I now really think about is aperture, speed and occasionally ISO. I only use primes so don't have to set a zoom and often work in focus zones so it becomes point and shoot in a faction of a second.

Image 3 above was taken without the poseur's knowledge or permission. It was taken with a 50/f1.4 and very quickly, estimating the distance and then fine tuning in half a second or so. She did not know I'd taken the picture.

It is possible to photograph moving things without auto-focus, but I'd use my iPhone if I ever went to a Grand Prix. Here are few relatively slow moving things, although the bloke's foot was moving pretty swiftly and it was very dark. The skateboarder was taken at 1/2000 with a Leica M 50/f2, just about the sharpest lens you can get. I sold it when I got a 50/1.4, which is not quite as sharp, a slight regret. The other one was my 90mm Tele-Elmarit, which is about 35 years old and cost me £300.

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yes you could buy all of those Sony’s but at the end of the day you would only have a Sony and be missing out on the Leica Magic
Neil

Out of interest Neil, which part of the APS-C Leica CL is magical? Is it the Sony sensor, the mundane variable aperture kit lens or the Panasonic internals?

As I've said before, I think the niche Leica systems (mainly the M film/digital rangefinders and lenses) are unique in what they offer so I can understand their premium to a degree. However, their more 'standard' system cameras like the CL/SL aren't hugely different to similar offerings from other manufacturers so I do struggle to see how they justify their price, apart from the red dot.
 
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I've always quite fancied an M9, love that Leica look... ;-) just never had the opportunity to try one. I had a brief spell with an M2 which was lovely, but a digital Leica obviously would be quite a different option. Have to say the thought of spending over £2k on a body as old as the M9 is now also is not super appealing without knowing it's definitely my thing.
 
Out of interest Neil, which part of the APS-C Leica CL is magical? Is it the Sony sensor, the mundane variable aperture kit lens or the Panasonic internals?

As I've said before, I think the niche Leica systems (mainly the M film/digital rangefinders and lenses) are unique in what they offer so I can understand their premium to a degree. However, their more 'standard' system cameras like the CL/SL aren't hugely different to similar offerings from other manufacturers so I do struggle to see how they justify their price, apart from the red dot.

Leica and Panasonic have had a very successful partnership years, to their mutual benefit. Most camera companies buy sensors from other manufacturers, some buying stock sensors and others having sensors made to a specific specification.

The big deal in recent years has been the design and implementation of the the Maestro II software that powers the Leica Q, SL, M10 and now CL bodies. I think that all of those bodies are made in Germany and most of the lenses. I think the SL zoom lenses may be made by Panasonic, as Leica have not made their own zoom lenses for about 30 years.

What is good about the Leica CL is that it can be operated like a standard Leica rangefinder, it has an off centre viewfinder, is small and practical and can be used with just about any Leica lens made over the last 60 years, including the new SL lenses. The 18mm is the first "kit" lens they have made for ages and is apparently superb. Leica optics are invariably are superb, that's really what Leica is all about, not bodies. So lots of Leica CL users will be using M or TL lenses.

The Leica CL is price comparable with a number of other cameras by other brands, but it is not a straight comparison because buyers will be using very high quality optics that they already own. That is very much what the M-series is about, for many people the lenses are a lifetime investment and the depreciation even on M-series digital cameras is relatively low, less than for example on a Sony A series.

In recent years Leica I have been making great cameras because of their partnerships with other companies, not despite them. There's nothing topping anyone buying Fuji or whatever. My son does M photography using a Voightlander body and Voightlander and Zeiss lenses. I also have some Voightlander and Zeiss lenses.
 
I've always quite fancied an M9, love that Leica look... ;-) just never had the opportunity to try one. I had a brief spell with an M2 which was lovely, but a digital Leica obviously would be quite a different option. Have to say the thought of spending over £2k on a body as old as the M9 is now also is not super appealing without knowing it's definitely my thing.

Leica M9 body prices have remained around £2k for the last 3 years. I loved the images, but the ISO is poor and the screen a joke. The cost, however, will be glass. Good starters would be the Zeiss 35/2 ZM and Voightlander 75/f1.8.
 
What is good about the Leica CL is that it can be operated like a standard Leica rangefinder, it has an off centre viewfinder, is small and practical and can be used with just about any Leica lens made over the last 60 years, including the new SL lenses. The 18mm is the first "kit" lens they have made for ages and is apparently superb. Leica optics are invariably are superb, that's really what Leica is all about, not bodies. So lots of Leica CL users will be using M or TL lenses.

The Leica CL is price comparable with a number of other cameras by other brands, but it is not a straight comparison because buyers will be using very high quality optics that they already own. That is very much what the M-series is about, for many people the lenses are a lifetime investment and the depreciation even on M-series digital cameras is relatively low, less than for example on a Sony A series.

Using that reasoning, how is an A6500 any different? It has the same off centre viewfinder (don’t forget, the CL uses a digital viewfinder and not a proper rangefinder), can use any Leica lens you wish to and is probably using the same sensor.

Edit: The Leica CL doesn’t have any phase detect AF points either so, from an AF point of view, is more comparable to an Nex series body from Sony. I realise that a Leica user may use M lenses so AF isn’t a problem but you’re then still just using an MF lens with a digital EVF like on a Sony.

I’m not sure what other APS-C csc is priced equivalent to the CL though?
 
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With regards to the mediocre kit lens, I was referring to the 18-56 3.5-5.6 that comes in at £3275

https://www.parkcameras.com/p/L0125...MI37uSlciH2AIVb7XtCh1NwAWzEAQYASABEgI0GfD_BwE

Compared to the body only that’s £1000 for a variable aperture 18-56mm. The only magic in that is how to make cash disappear.

I bumped into Jimmy Hughes from Leica a couple of weeks ago taking that out for a test drive. He was coming up the escalator on the tube the other way and for a Leica the lens looks too big. I spoke to him later and he was impressed and they are proving very popular.

I had this in mind.
https://www.parkcameras.com/p/L0125...irrorless-camera-prime-kit-18mm-f28-asph-lens
 
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