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Official Talk Leica thread
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^^^^^^^ all joking apart. I think mobile phones will take over cameras period. My buddy in KL has has had a camera shop for 2 generations is now struggling to make ends meet due to the mobile phone market. I'm guessing iPhone X will be my backup camera to the Leica S007 
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I forgot to add that that's hardly a like for like comparison. A slow f5.6 28mm lens on the M10 versus a very quick f1.8 24mm lens on the Sony. Mount the 28/5.6 onto the Sony and compare the size then. You lose the rangefinder but you've still got a much smaller package to put in your pocket.
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Steve it will be interesting to see what the TL2 experience is like seeing as I like to put my eye to a eye piece. Anyway I guess I will find out tomorrow. If I don’t like it then my wife will have a new toy
Neil
It's mainly about image quality and use. It's not really about specifications (mostly, although the ISO performance is a key thing). My Monochrom was 18mp and the best digital body I ever owned because of the sensor design.
This review sums it up very well.
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2017/07/25/the-leica-tl2-full-camera-review-the-modern-day-leica/
I don't want a TL2, but if I did have one I would use M lenses on it.
We use non-Leica here. I had a used Sony A7R. Just did not enjoy using it. Awful handling and dreadful design. Put it up for sale, but my son's X-Pro1 got a dodgy sensor so I gave the Sony to him. He mostly shoots film on a Bessa. My other son uses Fuji XT1, some good but sluggish lenses. My son only uses M lenses on the Sony, a mix of Leica, Zeiss and Voightlander. We also have a used Sony RX100 Mk3 for when around water or sand and he takes it to festivals and gigs.
I've only ever sold thee Leica items, two of which I regret - the Monochrom and a 50/f2 ASPH. Even the M10 can't do b&w like the Monochrom. Nothing can. The 50/f2 ASPH is the sharpest 50mm ever by anyone, better than the 50/1.4 ASPH I now have, but the latter has much better bokeh. If I want sharpness, I can get close if I borrow my son's Zeiss 50/f2 Planar.
With the 28/5.6 I hardly ever look through the rangefinder. It's specifically a street lens. As I mentioned at the top the current Leica digitals all use versions of the Maestro II processor. Don't know what's in the Sony.
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Again, you're drifting off into M mode which has nothing in relation to the TL2. I'm not questioning the quality/ability of the M range, they're clearly a unique proposition.
Like it or not, specifications do matter when they're key to the usability and handling of a camera. I agree that a lot of Sony functions aren't required so I don't use them. However, an EVF/OVF are important if you want to shoot in daylight without holding the camera in front of your face to see the screen. IBIS helps steady your shots when the shutter speed drops and good AF is pretty useful for AF lenses otherwise it just gets frustrating.
These reviews also sum up the camera, proving that all cameras are personal preference but when a manufacturer sells an APSC mirrorless body for £2k with the bolt on EVF and then charges an extra £65 for a "camera strap adaptor" so you can use your own strap instead of the proprietary plug in rubber strap it's clearly form over function.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/leica-tl2-first-impressions
http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/leica-tl2
Pros
- Beautiful, tactile design
- Superb touchscreen interface
- Excellent raw image quality
- 32GB memory built-in
- No built-in electronic viewfinder
- Uninspiring JPEG output
- No image stabilisation in either the body or lens
- Doesn’t work so well in low light
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/leica-tl2-review
OUR VERDICT
The Leica TL2 is certainly not without its charms. It's beautifully made, the large and bright touchscreen is one of the best we've used on a camera, and images from the 24.3MP APS-C sensor are very good (provided you shoot in raw). However, it just doesn't offer the wealth of features we'd hope to see on a camera demanding this kind of money.
FOR
- Stunning touchscreen
- Excellent raw image quality
- Premium finish
- High price
- Poor battery life
- No IS for still images
- No built-in EVF
Neil, I'm sorry if it looks like I'm trying to pee on your parade but, as a photographer, I find it hard to take a camera purely on face value and instead look at what it actually delivers as a whole. I sincerely hope you like the camera and enjoy using it.
woof woof
I like a nice Chianti
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I used to come into this thread because I used to have RF's and still have a bit of a soft spot for RF's and the MF thing and I still do MF but these days with something else but I don't know if I'm just having a bad day or it's the bad taste, the snobbery or the drivel that I've had enough of. Whatever. Goodbye
I was a Canon user for many years, but got fed up with the bulk and weight of all the kit. I went to rangefinders for that reason. I then realised that over the years I had become lazy and let the camera take over, and had actually forgotten how to take decent pictures. I have also tried Fuji and Sony mirrorless. There is no great snobbery about Leica, it really is about how the camera bodies are designed fit for purpose with nothing to get in the way.
The ultimate realisation was the Monochrom. They found that over half M users shot mostly in black and white, so they designed a digital camera that only shoots black and white. It was and remains hugely popular because there is nothing like it, you just cannot get the same image quality from an RGB sensor. I sold mine as 3 bodies are enough (M film, M digital and Q automatic), but I miss it terribly and will probably end up getting another of the one I had, the 2012 MM1 18mp CCD version.
The are Leica glass snobs I suppose, it's more to do with the different performance of different lenses and how they image. My favourite is a 1980s 90/f2.8 Tele-Elmarit that cost me £300 off eBay. I also use Zeiss (21/2.8) and Voightlander (15/4.5 and 75/1.8).
New Leica are expensive because they are handmade to exceptionally high standards. Reviewers never consider camera or lens depreciation. Sony values fall like a stone. My A7R cost me £700, it was 12 months old and had cost someone £1,700 new. My Leica Q cost me £2,900 new over 2 years ago and I could sell it for at least £2,500. I sold my M9 and 50/f2 with no overall loss at all. Battery life - I carry spares. Big deal. No IS - the camera is designed not to need IS. No EVF - I commented on this before, a no-no for me, but the TL2 can use an external EVF and the same one as on the M10.
The ultimate realisation was the Monochrom. They found that over half M users shot mostly in black and white, so they designed a digital camera that only shoots black and white. It was and remains hugely popular because there is nothing like it, you just cannot get the same image quality from an RGB sensor. I sold mine as 3 bodies are enough (M film, M digital and Q automatic), but I miss it terribly and will probably end up getting another of the one I had, the 2012 MM1 18mp CCD version.
The are Leica glass snobs I suppose, it's more to do with the different performance of different lenses and how they image. My favourite is a 1980s 90/f2.8 Tele-Elmarit that cost me £300 off eBay. I also use Zeiss (21/2.8) and Voightlander (15/4.5 and 75/1.8).
New Leica are expensive because they are handmade to exceptionally high standards. Reviewers never consider camera or lens depreciation. Sony values fall like a stone. My A7R cost me £700, it was 12 months old and had cost someone £1,700 new. My Leica Q cost me £2,900 new over 2 years ago and I could sell it for at least £2,500. I sold my M9 and 50/f2 with no overall loss at all. Battery life - I carry spares. Big deal. No IS - the camera is designed not to need IS. No EVF - I commented on this before, a no-no for me, but the TL2 can use an external EVF and the same one as on the M10.
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I agree that Leica kit will hold it's value more and, as a business, they trade very well on their heritage.
With regards to the TL2, I'm not sure how a standard mirrorless camera is designed to not need IS? The physics of light gathering apply to it exactly the same way as other cameras so as the light get's lower and shutter speeds drop, it will still reach a ceiling of ISO before the shutter speed has to drop further so it's not really different to anything else.
I can see that we're never going to meet in the middle with this and we both have differing opinions. I really like the M series Leica's as they offer something unique in being a digital rangefinder. The TL2 is an APSC mirrorless camera with so so specification as a whole, irrespective of it's single block design and touchscreen.
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Steve I take pictures for fun and I like to think I am quite good at it. I look at cameras like cars. If I like the look of it then I will try it. If after trying it I don't like it I will sell it on. I like the look of the TL2 I have seen some pictures taken with it and they are cool. I will know on Thursday night if I'm going to keep it or not...... my gut feeling is I will like it as they look really cool with the Arte Di Mango half case.
Neil
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I'm in agreement that photography should be fun and I deliberately don't get bogged down in DxO stats etc. The only reason I've carried on talking about the TL2 is your belief that it's the best camera in its' class, purely because it looks shiny and has a red dot.
Have fun with it and go and shoot some photographs but sometimes it's not about the external appearance and more about the actual quality. Good luck with it though [emoji1303]
I get the TL2 concept, but I shan't be trying or buying. I don't like really small cameras. Even the A7R is too small for me. I like cameras that give a firm grip, can be used one-handed and are not to big and heavy. For me the Leica M body is perfect, even though the digitals are quite heavy. Fuji X-Pro and X-T also fit the bill very well, but I don't like the exposure compensation dial on top. It also often gets knocked out of place. The ergonomics on the rear of these cameras don't bear comparison.
You don't, you just configure it to use the thumb dial
What I like on the M10 is one click on the Menu button gets a user-defined list of 8 menu items, a double click and you get the full menu. Its a shame they can't reverse engineer this onto the Q. One of the most infuriating things about Fuji and Sony are their menu structures. Just horrid.
Also on the M10, when in aperture mode and you half-press the shutter button, it tells you the exposure compensation for about half a second (with no other information to confuse you) and then speed. So there is no risk of accidentally having an exposure adjustment, which is a very easy mistake on many cameras.
These things make perfect sense, are not difficult to implement and make taking good pictures that much easier. They just require good thinking. It amazes me how so many cameras have such dreadful thinking layered on superb technology. The Leica electronics are, I assume, implemented by Panasonic, it's just that a lot of care and thought, based on a lot of feedback, has gone into their design. The reason seems to be that Leica is unique in aiming for simplicity, most other manufacturers aim for multi-taking complexity.
Also on the M10, when in aperture mode and you half-press the shutter button, it tells you the exposure compensation for about half a second (with no other information to confuse you) and then speed. So there is no risk of accidentally having an exposure adjustment, which is a very easy mistake on many cameras.
These things make perfect sense, are not difficult to implement and make taking good pictures that much easier. They just require good thinking. It amazes me how so many cameras have such dreadful thinking layered on superb technology. The Leica electronics are, I assume, implemented by Panasonic, it's just that a lot of care and thought, based on a lot of feedback, has gone into their design. The reason seems to be that Leica is unique in aiming for simplicity, most other manufacturers aim for multi-taking complexity.
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I very rarely need to use the menu on the Sony, although I struggle to understand the negativity towards their menus as they look like any other that I've used before. With regards to the exposure comp, the Sony gives you the choice of displaying all/no data as an overlay, just your shutter/aperture/exposure comp, a histogram or just a horizon gauge so it pretty much covers all the options. I realise that this will probably be seen as too much information and distracting but each to their own.
On the M10 in Live View you get the full range of settings information in bars above and below the image view. The Ex Comp is shown as a range grid rather than as a number, so you can't miss it.
Through the viewfinder, the Ex Comp and speed readings show in red LCD, which has been a feature of Leica at least back to the M3, over 60 years ago. When on full manual, you get red arrows for exposure. It may sound like Stone Age display electronics, but it's something that all Leica users are used to and if they ever changed it there would be huge crowds outside the factory with burning torches and pitchforks. It's the same on Voightlanders and no doubt many film cameras I've forgotten. The red LCD is outside the field of view. The whole idea is that the viewfinder if clear of all non-essential information. All you need to know is the speed and that's all you get.
Thats before the issue of brightlines and what's outside the image, another discussion entirely. A big improvement on the M10 is illuminated brightlines.
TL2 review vs Sony s6500
https://www.slrlounge.com/leica-tl2-review-less-a-random-tool-more-a-personal-statement/
https://www.slrlounge.com/leica-tl2-review-less-a-random-tool-more-a-personal-statement/
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"This is a mirrorless camera for people for whom ‘good-enough-design’ isn’t quite good enough. For those who like to indulge in a bit of flare in their lives with a cherry in their Manhattan; a spoon full of sugar with their medicine, and a camera with curves so organic they seamlessly blend into each other as if made of flesh."
That says it all.
Essentially, the article focuses on the external shape and machined body (which I agree is unique but will be freezing cold in winter!), and attempts to gloss over the negatives;
Slow AF even in daylight from the 60mm and in general compared to other cameras like the 6500, "its autofocus is a bit behind, though not bad. Well, that is if you’re not used to a6500 speeds"
An LCD that displays a different brightness/colour balance to the actual output?
20fps only when the camera automatically switches to electronic shutter above 1/4000th
29 frame buffer so the 20fps will stop after 1.5 seconds
The body looks nice but the shape isn't revolutionary (search for a Sony NEX C3/3/5, Samsung NX1000 etc for the same overall shape)
The dials have a wake up function so you have to click them first before they make any changes, "It’s about as useful as putting a ‘snooze’ button on a smoke alarm."
The battery has part of the base plate built in to it so it leaves a hole in the base when charging.
It looks like a nice point and shoot mirrorless body that will stand out as expensive when sitting at a table outside a cafe in Monaco.
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Na...
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I was merely commenting on the review that was shared which followed the line of describe how beautiful the camera is but ignore the rest. As someone actually interested in photography, I'm not jealous of a shiny camera.
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And it's all about balance. Pointless having a camera that just looks good vs another that has more functions etc but each to their own
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Seriously. You really have no idea what your talk about. You know it, I know it everybody knows it LEICA cameras are in a class of there own when it comes to build quality and IQ ........ you can join th ranks of the jellious leica hatters
Neil
Neil
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How old are you? Lol.
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Sorry Neil but that's just the stereotypical negative attitude of some Leica fans. Numerous reviews of the camera clearly show that it's lacking in comparison to other APS-C mirrorless systems in many ways but because it's got a red dot and it's overpriced you believe it must be the best camera in the world.
I've really tried not to be so blunt but it's not about about jealousy or haters, it's about facts. Go ahead and buy it based on looks and badge but please don't assume that everyone else is missing out by not having one.
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You miss the whole point. It’s got to do with the IQ of a leica. You just don’t get the leica look with a Sony or a Pentax or a Nikon ........... you just don’t get that look.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense is why would someone like you that obviously doesn’t like Leica go and look on the “official leica thread”........ I can’t imagine myself looking at Canon or Sony threads as I have no I trespass at them or care about them........ strange
Neil
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So in a nutshell. Only leica fanboys are allowed to view and post here? Lol
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You miss the whole point. It’s got to do with the IQ of a leica. You just don’t get the leica look with a Sony or a Pentax or a Nikon ........... you just don’t get that look.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense is why would someone like you that obviously doesn’t like Leica go and look on the “official leica thread”........ I can’t imagine myself looking at Canon or Sony threads as I have no I trespass at them or care about them........ strange
Neil
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I'm a photographer reading a photography forum. I didn't realise there was an entry criteria for certain threads? I only got involved because you stated the TL2 was clearly the best camera ever because it's shiny and has a Leica badge. I then replied with some examples why, as a camera rather than an ornament, it's was lacking compared to other APS-C cameras and we've obviously come round to the suggestion that I'm just jealous.
Each to their own I guess
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I forgot to say, where have I said that I don't like Leica? I really like their M series cameras because they offer something unique as well as excellent lenses and history.
What I find hard to swallow are other offerings that are limited compared to alternative cameras yet the snobby attitude of, "..it's the best camera in the world but you can't afford it so you're just jealous.." shines through from those that believe the hype. As I've said before and genuinely mean, good luck with it and I hope you enjoy shooting with it.
What I find hard to swallow are other offerings that are limited compared to alternative cameras yet the snobby attitude of, "..it's the best camera in the world but you can't afford it so you're just jealous.." shines through from those that believe the hype. As I've said before and genuinely mean, good luck with it and I hope you enjoy shooting with it.
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Absolutely not. Of course anyone who wants to look can look but like you. The only reason you would want to look is for the want of a leica.......... I’ve been there and done that.
Do yourself a favor and go and buy a leica...... any leica. You know you want one [emoji7][emoji7][emoji7][emoji7]
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I guess the face-covering emoji doesn't work here.
Just to clarify. I look in the thread because I'm interested in photography and gear. Maybe the difference is that I can critically look past a badge to decide if a camera is actually good or not?
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Stop looking at the spec of the camera and look at the pictures........ the pictures tell the story........ the poof is in the pudding as such
Neil
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But the picture was taken by a human being so in theory you should be looking at who took the shot and how.
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Lol I'm done