Oulton park 14th May, where did it all go wrong ?

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ned.c

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Andrew
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First time ever with a media pass and I'm so disappointed with my photos, none of them I'd be happy to be used by the people I was taking them for.

I was going to shoot in manual but found after a couple of shots the light was changing between sun and cloud so frequently I ended up shooting in shutter priority at around 1/250-320 and auto iso. I think this is quite fast for shooting motorsport but even still most of my shots were blurred or not sharp as I'd like/expect. I ended up using a 70-200 f4L IS with a Kenko 1.4x nearly all day so ended up shooting at f5.6, is this too slow for af?

I was trying some panning (which I always have mixed results with) but even 3/4 shots of cars coming out of corners aren't very sharp. I fiddled between evaluative and spot metering and was using specific af points, normally towards the front of the car but even so very rarely was the front of the car in focus, let alone the whole car.

I enjoy taking photos, not spending hours after an event photoshopping (I don't have or know how to use it anyway) so the idea of some kind of workflow to do levels, sharpen etc etc doesn't appeal, I'd rather try to get it right first time but I've no idea what's gone wrong :(

What should I be doing differently?

edit: que people asking me to post up examples but I think you all know what a non-sharp front 3/4 image of a car coming out of a corner looks like?!
 
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An f/4 lens with a 1.4x TC ends up being around f/5.6 so it should autofocus on a 40D.

I wouldn't have thought spot metering with anything other than Manual mode is a good idea unless you take a reading off something in the scene, lock exposure, recompose and then take the photo. Small areas of extreme bright/dark would throw off the exposure.

If you want consistent exposure then try manual mode and spot metering off the tarmac or something else that's in the same light as the cars will be. If you work out what reading the meter should be giving you for that surface you can half press the shutter while aiming at the surface just before the cars come around to check if you need to adjust your exposure settings.
For example if you work out that the surface reads as +2/3 for proper exposure and when you check it you get +1 1/3 you know you need two thirds less light through one of your settings, which should be two clicks of the wheel.
This prevents different coloured cars influencing your exposure.

Re: Examples
People will want example images so they can try and work out why the image isn't sharp. Out of focus looks different to motion blur and motion blur looks different to lens softness.
 
well it's typically the subject ie car that's not sharp so guess it's motion blur, but upping the shutter gives static looking wheels so how is it possible to get slight blurring of the wheels but get the car sharp on a 3/4 shot when the car is approaching, it's not a panning shot as you need to be nearer perpendicular for panning with blurred background. have I just got wobbly hands and no hope of ever getting a decent shot apart from the few that I'm assuming must be fluke?

I uploaded the best dozen or so to flickr, prob doesn't show the problems I had very well as flickr seems to have resized, sharpened and fiddled the colours/contrast during the upload process, they don't look this good full screen on my machine here but anyway: http://www.flickr.com/photos/50206110@N04/
 
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Shooting at f/5.6 or even f/4 I'd have thought your depth of field could be the problem - at f/5.6 and a subject distance of 15metres at 200mm you're only looking at a depth of field of 1.2 metres.

Most cars are over 1.2 metres long and especially when they're moving you're going to need to give yourself a little extra DOF to make sure they're perfectly in focus.

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Looking back at the EXIF data on some of my shots from Oulton last year, I seemed to have been shooting at around ISO1600, f/8 or above and keeping shutter speeds above 1/250, I also wasn't lucky enough to have a press pass, so I would have been more like 20 or 25 metres away giving me more margin for error :)

That was shooting the BSB so I could probably have gotten away with a narrower DOF and used less ISO, but the bikes tend to be harder to keep in frame than the cars as they're moving quicker out of the corners! :)

If you think about it, having a press pass in a lot of areas you'd have been closer to the action which would have made panning shots even harder (as you'd have had to move quicker to keep up).
 
I wasn't shooting at f5.6, I was shooting shutter priorrty at around 1/250 so whatever the camera metered it at. The f5.6 I was getting at is the amount of light that the autofocus has to work with to lock the subject before the photo is taken. Photos were at around f8-f14 depending on sun/cloud based on the fiddling i did with manual settings at the start of the day before I went to Tv mode.
 
I think there are a couple of different problems occurring.

The first is in 5022, 4982 & 5987 and is something I realised about my own shots recently - the sun strip above the windscreen and the roof are the sharpest part of the image. In 5987 this has left the front of the second car being sharper than the first.
I believed this was a combination of two things. One being that I was using the centre focus point and aiming at the centre of the car which was the windscreen area (so this was the area most in focus) and secondly that I was concentrating on the middle of the car rather than the area I wanted sharp so when I panned with the car I was using that point as my reference. This meant that the front of the car would be slightly out of focus and would be slightly motion blurred because of the difference in movement between the front of the car and the middle of the car.
I changed to using the bottom focus point and looking at the front grille of the car for frontal shots and this improved.

Another thing I think is happening in your shots in something present in 5469 & 5772, which is that you've missed the movement of the car by not panning enough.
In 5469 car number 5 is sharp(er) than car number 91 in the front of the shot. Car 91 is moving across the shot faster than the other cars because it has already entered the bend, car 5 is moving across the frame slower than car 91 as it is only just turning in and the rest of the field is moving across the frame slightly in the opposite direction to the corner. Only one of the three can be sharp without a really high shutter speed.
In 5772 the posts on the inside of the corner look like they'd be the sharpest part of the image if they were inside the depth of field so with that one I'd guess you weren't panning fast enough to match the cars' movement or not at all.

Generally I think it's a case of the panning movement not being accurate for the subject and/or of focus being aimed somewhere other than the desired area.
 
Thanks for the input Daz. I think you are right about the focal point selection although I was changing it there were definately some times when it was not properly set, either because I wasn't thinking about exactly where I was going to be framing the cars relatively in the frame as I was trying to pan and on some occassions was trying to get specific stuff in the background aswell. I also need to ensure focal point is on the lead car in a group or front (either lower corners for turn in across a corner or grill as you mentioned) of the car in subject.
I think the other half of the problem I have is identifying where focal point or panning has been the problem and also reviewing the photos during the day on the cameras screen they looked a lot better, a lot of the problems weren't revealed until afterwards when reviewing on a large screen.
 
Yeah that's one of the problems with the 40D versus newer models, I use the same camera and the low screen resolution is a little annoying at times.
 
well on the bright side my 'pick' of the bunch have gone down well with the people I was doing the photos for so maybe put it down as a learning experience than a total disaster.
 
DazJW said:
... you've missed the movement of the car by not panning enough
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or stopped when you've pressed the shutter. You have to keep panning after you press the shutter. If you stop when you press the shutter it doesn't work either.
 
I must admit, I feel the same as Gary. How did you get the pass in the first place? Was it an agency, a newspaper?
 
It wasn't a paid job, I know the people and they've seen me about with a camera at race meetings before and they offered me the pass as they were going to be elsewhere and wanted someone to cover it. They know I'm not a professional and I didn't cost them anything as I would have been there in a different capacity otherwise anyway so took it as the opportunity it was.
 
ned.c said:
It wasn't a paid job, I know the people and they've seen me about with a camera at race meetings before and they offered me the pass as they were going to be elsewhere and wanted someone to cover it. They know I'm not a professional and I didn't cost them anything as I would have been there in a different capacity otherwise anyway so took it as the opportunity it was.
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paid or not paid, i'm just asking how come you didnt sort these probs out before hand? if a jobs worth doing....
 
Gary said:
paid or not paid, i'm just asking how come you didnt sort these probs out before hand? if a jobs worth doing....
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Be fair to the guy - it's kind of hard to practice taking shots of motor cars flying past at 130mph.

I don't think camping out on the motorway to check the AF performance is particularly a good use of anyone's time :)

He was working for free as a hobbyist photog and motorsports events take place every week of the year at tracks around the country - no lifetime one-off shots have been missed, no harm done ;)
 
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Siftah said:
Be fair to the guy - it's kind of hard to practice taking shots of motor cars flying past at 130mph.
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yeah but you can go to races and practice.. or even test days if you dont want to pay.

all i'm saying is that if someone asked me to do something i'd make sure i can do it before agreeing.
 
Entry to race tracks for midweek test days and track days is normally free of charge, so is a very good and cheap way to hone your motorsport skills. You may not have access to the whole circuit (or have a long walk if some crossings aren't manned), but its still free. You wouldn't be able to go trackside without PLI, but the place would be pretty much deserted so you're not fighting for position.
 
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ned.c said:
It wasn't a paid job, I know the people and they've seen me about with a camera at race meetings before and they offered me the pass as they were going to be elsewhere and wanted someone to cover it. They know I'm not a professional and I didn't cost them anything as I would have been there in a different capacity otherwise anyway so took it as the opportunity it was.
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I always thought you needed PLI or did you arrange cover to use this pass?
 
MSV circuits dont require PLI for MSV organised events.

Could you post some pics up, the fact that your aware that the images are not good enough shows that at least you have standards. So maybe they arn't as bad as you think.
 
Ah sorry, he must have removed them or made them private.
 
Paddockman said:
May well have been frightened off by the attitude of some on here I expect
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It's a possibility, but in fairness going trackside is a responsibility. I started a massive thread when I got my first pass to get some dos and don'ts (and have had a couple about me since... :thumbsdown: ).

How long had you been shooting before you went trackside, mate? Is this just a one day fail, or have you struggled with shooting cars before?
 
I've made the photos private for now as requested by the people I took them for, once I've got them uploaded to their site I will post a link or put a watermark on mine on flickr and make them public again.

I'm not looking to make excuses and not put off by anyone's comments, everyone has their own viewpoint and background so I can cope with that. I've taken photos at other events in the past from behind the barriers purely as an amateur, predominantly at brands and snet. My kit isn't a huge setup and I had borrowed a second body and several lenses for this day to make sure I couldn't blame the kit.

Yes I do have standards, I can be a bit of a perfectionist so this was clearly a learning curve and good practise and at the end of the day the people they were for were happy so hopefully I can build on this in the future, especially with constructive feedback received here :)
 
I think this whole thread is a bit disappointing really. If this were a professional shoot, being paid for, then it's reasonable to expect a professional job to be done and for the photog to have took steps to ensure the quality of the work.

But this was unpaid work with expectations set at that level. To jump on the guy because he's not practiced or doesn't feel he's got the best shots he could have is ludicrous.

From the OP's comments his 'client' (term used loosely) is happy with the shots he's presented, so the whole point is moot.

As Paddockman says, the attitude taken in this thread is enough to scare off new forum members - get a grip guys.
 
Siftah said:
I think this whole thread is a bit disappointing really. If this were a professional shoot, being paid for, then it's reasonable to expect a professional job to be done and for the photog to have took steps to ensure the quality of the work.

But this was unpaid work with expectations set at that level. To jump on the guy because he's not practiced or doesn't feel he's got the best shots he could have is ludicrous.

From the OP's comments his 'client' (term used loosely) is happy with the shots he's presented, so the whole point is moot.

As Paddockman says, the attitude taken in this thread is enough to scare off new forum members - get a grip guys.
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i'm not sure who you are referring to with regards to an attitude, but if its me then you are wrong.

i just asked why he didnt sort out these issues before he went trackside.. seems a reasonable question to me without an ounce of attitude.
If someone asked me to bake them a cake for on saturday, i'd make sure i knew how to bake a cake first.

but anyway, if he wants help he's in the right place.. but he really needs to post the 'bad' photos online so we can see them..
 
Gary said:
although, you do have a point.. if someone asked 'can you bake me a cake, but i'm not paying you for any time or any ingredients' then i'd probably not care if i burned the bugger
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LOL :D
 
Gary said:
although, you do have a point.. if someone asked 'can you bake me a cake, but i'm not paying you for any time or any ingredients' then i'd probably not care if i burned the bugger
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That's a poor example, the OP clearly cares about the quality of his cake, hence he's asking for guidance.

By the sound of it, the requester of the cake is perfectly happy with the burnt cake they got too, so really no need for anyone to have an attitude ;)
 
Jesus, everyone gets so angry on forums. Siftah, I totally agree with Gary. I know a lot of very, very good photographers who have never been trackside and, to put it blunty (and Ned, I think you'd agree) there has, in some ways at least, been an opportunity wasted here. I'm not being harsh, I'm being honest: something a lot of people on the internet greatly lack.
 
Opportunity wasted or not I'm not that fussed and happy to put it down to experience, the people the photos were for are happy enough so I just plan to take all the points on board and hopefully get some better results next time :)
 
Siftah said:
Be fair to the guy - it's kind of hard to practice taking shots of motor cars flying past at 130mph.

I don't think camping out on the motorway to check the AF performance is particularly a good use of anyone's time :)
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Did someone mention cake?

Actually, some one once suggested to me that the motorway was a great place to practice panning. You've a constant stream of cars coming past at a fairly constant speed. You just need to find a place that allows you to get close enough.

Or I can recommend the back straight into Tower at Castle Coombe, or Prescott hill climb near Cheltenham, where you can get really close.
 
ned.c said:
Opportunity wasted or not I'm not that fussed and happy to put it down to experience, the people the photos were for are happy enough so I just plan to take all the points on board and hopefully get some better results next time :)
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Good luck. Much respect for coming on here rather than hiding away and struggling.
 
Problem is probably caused by:

1) The AF on the 40D not being particularly great to start with and closing the subject distance (thats where problems lie), choosing more head on shots than before and having a TC on won't have helped.

2) Pressure and expectations combining with the inexperience of the above

Its different and you have to expect some time to adapt your game... more practice is what you need.... keep going!
 
desantnik said:
Problem is probably caused by:

1) The AF on the 40D not being particularly great to start with and closing the subject distance (thats where problems lie), choosing more head on shots than before and having a TC on won't have helped.

2) Pressure and expectations combining with the inexperience of the above

Its different and you have to expect some time to adapt your game... more practice is what you need.... keep going!
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I would argue that first point mate. The 40d is a very capable camera in terms of AF. Its just not very good at dealing with slow lenses.

Gary was using a 40d to great effect for several years and i used to get some reasonable shots with mine a little over a year ago. How time flys!

The rest i would agree on ;)
 
hind sight is a great thing especially on this forum :cool:: to many pre madonas
 
Hindsight is the only thing available when someone asks a question about what went wrong in the past - unless of course you are a timelord holty?
 
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