Panamoz, Hdew, etc etc

Except when he fails to declare and pay the un(der)paid VAT & duty on his mis-declared import.

you seem to fail too understand English

I said "As far as I am concerned, the purchaser has entered into a normal commercial agreement with a supplier, UK based or not, they have agreed a price which has been paid and the purchaser has not acted illegally in any way……. he does however take a risk"

How is that legal advice, please tell me?

Hdew purchase what they sell, they are responsible for paying any VAT due and charging VAT to their customer and paying this over to the Revenue. if for some reason they do not charge VAT to their customer it is not the duty of the end user to pay this, if the Revenue are aware of this they will take their invoiced price to the customer as being the VAT inclusive price.
 
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You were offering opinion from a position of knowledge and experience.
Apologies for any offence caused by daring not to agree with you. I now know my place, my liege.
 
OK Guys, quit with the personal's and sarcasm.
Life's too short, besides my coffee's getting cold.
 
You were offering opinion from a position of knowledge and experience.
Apologies for any offence caused by daring not to agree with you. I now know my place, my liege.

you did not cause me any offence and I did not see it as disagreeing with me … what I gave was my opinion, we all give our opinions on the internet and as such they are all personal opinions and unless we are inciting "this or that" - that's all they are, personal opinions.

I have only even bought one item from Hdew and I did not realise that they are considered to be a "grey importer" - I just called them and ordered over the phone and paid be credit card, as their price was good…….. all my other stuff I bought from Wex or Jessops.

Most of us search the internet for the best price when we buy something ……… we are not expected to "search" the sellers identity, business practices or whatever …….. we are protected by certain consumer laws in the EU but apart from that it's "Let the buyer beware" - Caveat emptor.

But looking at the price of the D750 I would buy one from Hdew and take them at their word that VAT and all taxes have been paid…… they are an established UK based company …… the credit card cos and Banks allow them credit card facilities ……. maybe they should take some interest ……. it is not a job for the general public apart from accessing the risk to themselves.
 
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But looking at the price of the D750 I would buy one from Hdew and take them at their word that VAT and all taxes have been paid…… they are an established UK based company …… the credit card cos and Banks allow them credit card facilities ……. maybe they should take some interest ……. it is not a job for the general public apart from accessing the risk to themselves.
HDEW are unusual in that they have a UK operation - most grey importers don't.
When you purchase from a non-UK source, my understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) that YOU are the importer. That means, regardless what the seller puts on the customs declaration, YOU are responsible for informing HMRC of any inaccuracies and making good any unpaid or underpaid taxes and duties.
This is completely different to buying from a bricks and mortar UK shop, so many (most?) shoppers will be blissfully unaware. It isn't helped by some unscrupulous retailers attempting to dupe buyers into thinking they are a UK seller.
That said, ignorance is no excuse in the law (although it may be a mitigating factor) and nothing spoils that new toy feeling like an unexpected tax bill. There's even a small risk that the parcel gets through customs but they catch up with you later... now you're in big trouble...
 
HDEW are unusual in that they have a UK operation - most grey importers don't.
When you purchase from a non-UK source, my understanding is (correct me if I'm wrong) that YOU are the importer. That means, regardless what the seller puts on the customs declaration, YOU are responsible for informing HMRC of any inaccuracies and making good any unpaid or underpaid taxes and duties.
This is completely different to buying from a bricks and mortar UK shop, so many (most?) shoppers will be blissfully unaware. It isn't helped by some unscrupulous retailers attempting to dupe buyers into thinking they are a UK seller.
That said, ignorance is no excuse in the law (although it may be a mitigating factor) and nothing spoils that new toy feeling like an unexpected tax bill. There's even a small risk that the parcel gets through customs but they catch up with you later... now you're in big trouble...

AFAIK - If you are importing goods personally from outside the EU into the UK it is your responsibility to "check" that the sender has declared the goods correctly if they are sent to you (directly or sometimes through a forwarding agent), from outside the EU, ........... you then may have to pay any taxes which are due.

As far as I am aware the lens that I purchased from Hdew was sent to me from Hdew in the UK and the paperwork that I received indicated so. Indeed they state this if you ask them, (I did). Goods they sell are either already in the UK or they are supplied to them in the UK normally before being sold to you. They seem to buy directly from many sources, but not Nikon UK/Europe as they state that it does not come with Nikons UK warranty.

All such goods originated from the Far East but it is the "EU importers" duty to complete the customs paperwork correctly and deal with any taxes payable. As long as they are invoiced to you by an EU company IMHO you should have nothing to be concerned about.......... but can a normal person be expected to even check this?

i would think that most normal people would assume that all the procedures are in order when purchasing on the internet having paid the price using a UK or EU credit card and receiving the goods as agreed and most would be deemed not to have the knowledge to know if, or if not, the correct precedures have been followed. To expect them to perform "due diligence" on all their purchase transactions would be considered unreasonable by most, law or not. If the goods are indeed imported it could be expected that the correct procedures are being "policed" by the EU/UK authorities and such sellers and prices seem to be quite normal, i.e. not unusual.

But accepting the above I have also pointed out that if you buy a D750 from HK, say Panamoz or similar, for £1,178, ensure that the VAT is paid by contacting C & E to confirm that the declaration is correct, if it is not you pay the 20% VAT due to bring the price up to £1,413 you still have a saving of £386 over the Wex and Jessops price. Furthermore, if this does happen and you have to pay the 20% VAT of £236, Panamoz have agreed to refund this and they seem to have in all cases where this has happened......... so you also buy with this assurance.

The risks are as I pointed out in my earlier postings, so knowing these risks and covering the main financial one, I still contend that ……….the grey suppliers must be buying them cheaper .. and as I indicated we have always been ripped off in the UK, (versus other countries), by the major camera suppliers …. so save up to £620 and buy from Panamoz or others BUT know the risks........... the major one being that one day they may cease to exist and still have you money ........ but Visa is your flexible insurance company, (but if you use it with Panamoz, knock £60 off the above saving)

Such savings are not the case with every lens or camera, make the comparisons and decide for yourself

I'm not in anyway trying to defend any business who are breaking the law, all I am trying to do is to put another side of the situation

(there was a time when UK punters, ordered RHD cars in France, drove across, collected then, paid the taxes and saved money, PLUS personal car importers who did the job for you and you collected the car from them, taxes paid and saved money) - UK retail prices are just that, they are not world prices.

As I type Farrow & Ball paint is considerably more expensive in France versus the UK as are other products and there are a number of people who do a weekly trip delivering such stuff from the UK to customers in France, saving money for the customers and earning a living from their work.

Amazon "ship" all their euro stuff from Luxembourg and pay the VAT rate applicable in that country, it will be increased from 15% to 17% on 1st January 2015

The world is not a perfect market but with the internet it is becoming more so.
 
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I've never know a group of people so interested in others tax affairs...

Steven, isn't it all about discussion on forums?
Surely it's also good for folk to know if something is legal & how things work. (forewarned is forearmed?)

There are also a number of UK business `advertisers` on here, who I'm sure have an interest.

The OP asked a question
My basic question is: how do these discounting retailers mange to knock five hundred smackers off the normal price? Why is it that they do not have the Nikon warranty? If there practices are up there with established retailers why do they not sweep the board in sales (can't be just because of people like me, can it?)?
to which there has been a discussion & few ideas put forward.
 
I've never know a group of people so interested in others tax affairs...

If it has saved someone making a mistake and losing money surely it is worth it.

If you look through EBay there are a lot of sellers who should probably not be dealt with even though they are given "credit card" and PayPal accounts.

We are only a very small minority of camera buyers on this forum and the grey market is small compared with the overall market.

If anything the thread has given people on this Forum some information so that they can make a better "informed" choice as many views have been put,

from, they are crooks don't touch them with a barge pole

to

Some could be genuine and if you understand the risks and take the best precautions that you can, it is worth buying through some of them.

This question has been asked quite a few times
 
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Steven, isn't it all about discussion on forums?
Surely it's also good for folk to know if something is legal & how things work. (forewarned is forearmed?)

There are also a number of UK business `advertisers` on here, who I'm sure have an interest.

The OP asked a question

to which there has been a discussion & few ideas put forward.

If it has saved someone making a mistake and losing money surely it is worth it.

If you look through EBay there are a lot of sellers who should probably not be dealt with even though they are given "credit card" and PayPal accounts.

We are only a very small minority of camera buyers on this forum and the grey market is small compared with the overall market.

If anything the thread has given people on this Forum some information so that they can make a better "informed" choice as many views have been put,

from, they are crooks don't touch them with a barge pole

to

Some could be genuine and if you understand the risks and take the best precautions that you can, it is worth buying through some of them.

This question has been asked quite a few times

Its all fine discussing such things; but seriously this is a three page thread with at least one pair getting stuck into each other for what is, to HMRC, a trivial amount of money. Even if every one buying grey cameras some how managed to not pay their VAT it wouldn't even come to the change that is rounded off Vodafone's tax bill.

What's worse is that these types of threads (tax issues) come up regularly and the invariably end up in the same bun fight over tuppence.

Which is why I come to: I've never know a group of people so interested in others tax affairs...
 
They tend to degenerate/bun fight when folk don't like the questions being asked!
(btw, it'll soon be a 4-pager now ;) :LOL: )
 
Its all fine discussing such things; but seriously this is a three page thread with at least one pair getting stuck into each other for what is, to HMRC, a trivial amount of money. Even if every one buying grey cameras some how managed to not pay their VAT it wouldn't even come to the change that is rounded off Vodafone's tax bill.

What's worse is that these types of threads (tax issues) come up regularly and the invariably end up in the same bun fight over tuppence.

Which is why I come to: I've never know a group of people so interested in others tax affairs...

That's fair enough Steven, you have a point - you should start posting bird images
 
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all part of the rich tapestry of life

18 degrees and sun out here
 
Which is why I come to: I've never know a group of people so interested in others tax affairs...
Have you never met anyone from HMRC? ;)

Also, this is what I do for a living (tax compliance, not arguing on the internet... although occasionally it can be hard to tell the difference).

No-one's making you read the thread, let alone comment. There's been a lot of useful information and lively debate (too lively on my part...) which surely is what a good forum is all about?

I'm sure there's a sensor size equivalence thread you can go and kick off in if that's what floats your boat. :D
 
Have you never met anyone from HMRC? ;)

Also, this is what I do for a living (tax compliance, not arguing on the internet... although occasionally it can be hard to tell the difference).

No-one's making you read the thread, let alone comment. There's been a lot of useful information and lively debate (too lively on my part...) which surely is what a good forum is all about?

I'm sure there's a sensor size equivalence thread you can go and kick off in if that's what floats your boat. :D
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...rey-imports-and-other-assorted-topics.512133/
 
The mods never enforced that!

That thread also has errors in it which I pointed out to Matt. Don't think it got changed. :shrug:
 
Have you never met anyone from HMRC? ;)

Also, this is what I do for a living (tax compliance, not arguing on the internet... although occasionally it can be hard to tell the difference).

No-one's making you read the thread, let alone comment. There's been a lot of useful information and lively debate (too lively on my part...) which surely is what a good forum is all about?

I'm sure there's a sensor size equivalence thread you can go and kick off in if that's what floats your boat. :D

More than you think, none of them have ever asked if I declared vat on my various toys. None of them care out side their professional day. Lots of lively debate about stuff which has been done ad nausem and realistically nothing new has been discovered.

Generally I keep out of discussions about miniature sizes.
 
I am puzzled by all this discussion of these grey imports. If they are blatantly breaking the law surely it isn't beyond the wit of even our dim authorities to clamp down on it?

Is it definitely true that these companies avoid Duty and VAT? I am suspicious of this because HDEW, from whom I have bought cameras and lenses, seem to be totally legit and have traded in the UK for many years. Also if you check out sites of quite well known US companies, which are probably among the biggest retailers in the world, they offer a Canon US or Nikon US camera which comes with the manufacuturers US warranty at one price and a "grey" ( or should I say gray" ) import at a considerably lower price but without the manufacturers warranty.

Why would this situation not be the same over here and that goods bought from places other than the official distributors are perfectly legally imported? I'm not saying they all are, and if you are happy to spend £1500 on a punt on eBay, then you're a braver man than me, but surely some companies operate perfectly legally?

I wonder if this anxiety is just FUD generated by the relevant UK distributors to browbeat us into buying from them.

I say "wonder" because I genuinely don't know the answer to this
 
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I am puzzled by all this discussion of these grey imports. If they are blatantly breaking the law surely it isn't beyond the wit of even our dim authorities to clamp down on it?

Though i'm no fan of grey importers i would say one thing - they aren't breaking the law, if someone buys a camera from hongkong or america, (or outer mongolia for that matter indeed anywhere outside the EU), and has it despatched to them in the UK , then the person doing the buyer is the importer and its them that commits an offence if custom duties, vat etc arent paid , including if it arrives mislabelled as toy parts and the buyer doesnt declare the misalabelling and pay the vat difference.

The only exception is if the grey importer is bringing imports to a uk base and selling them from there (which not many do , though many claim to be uk based when they actually arent)
 
Whats classed as UK based.
All the stuff i have had from Panamoz comes straight from HK, but payment is made to a UK account, based in Salford actually.
 
Not sure it's relevant to this discussion so apologies if not.

I bought a Canon EOS M the other day from Argos, liked it a lot so that evening decided to buy the 11-22mm. I went onto eBay and ordered without looking where the item was coming from (not like me, must have been tired), just saw delivered within a few days. Turns out I had ordered from Hong Kong (the advert was clear I just didn't read it).

Anyway, this morning I had a call from DHL, who have my lens, asking for proof of what I paid the supplier for tax purposes. Not a problem, I forwarded them the eBay invoice.

My point is, is this what courier companies are doing now?

I've read often that items sent from the Far East often have the incorrect amount shown. Surely this should help solve the issue, the courier asking for proof of what was paid?

For the record, I have no problem with this. As far as I'm concerned it was my own fault for not looking where the item was from and I owe the tax. If I'd been more alert I would have paid the extra to buy from the UK anyway.
 
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Whats classed as UK based.
All the stuff i have had from Panamoz comes straight from HK, but payment is made to a UK account, based in Salford actually.

its where its shipped from that matters - HDEW for example bring the stock in themselves so when you buy it ships from uk bricks and mortar to uk brick and mortar - a lot of other grey importers claim to have uk offices which often turn out to be virtual office services and uk depots which turn out to be freight distribution warehouses
 
its where its shipped from that matters - HDEW for example bring the stock in themselves so when you buy it ships from uk bricks and mortar to uk brick and mortar - a lot of other grey importers claim to have uk offices which often turn out to be virtual office services and uk depots which turn out to be freight distribution warehouses

So can I assume that HDEW ( a company I've dealt with and I know Canon honour warranty on lenses they sell BTW ) are definitely not breaking the law as they are a UK company? I assume this is the same for B&H and Adorama in the States who also offer grey imports as an option.

If this is the case, what's not to like about grey as long as it's bought from one of these companies?
 
only Hdew or HMRC can answer that (and HMRC won't due to DPA) - I'd assume they are paying their import tax and vat as they will provide a VAT receipt on request (though theres a slight question mark on why its on request rather than as a matter of routine) - they've got a good reputation so i doubt they'd risk it, but if you want to be sure ask them
 
I now have and they said they are perfectly legit and pay all duties and taxes. I'm happy and am happy to buy from them in future. As I say Canon are happy to honour their warranty and CPS accept them as a legit supplier so what's not to love about them?

I reckon this fear of Grey is based on the eBay cowboys and used by the UK distributors who are fearful of massive dents in their profits if it gets out that grey is every bit as good as anything else
 
I now have and they said they are perfectly legit and pay all duties and taxes. I'm happy and am happy to buy from them in future. As I say Canon are happy to honour their warranty and CPS accept them as a legit supplier so what's not to love about them?

I reckon this fear of Grey is based on the eBay cowboys and used by the UK distributors who are fearful of massive dents in their profits if it gets out that grey is every bit as good as anything else

thats fine dealing with someone like Hdew , but its not just ebay cowboys who are based in hongkong and only pretend to have a uk operation - try asking some of the other big names the same question and see what response you get, also look at some of the nightmare threads here where people have had nothing but trouble with overseas suppliers.

end of the day you pays your money and takes your choice - but if anything goes wrong dealing with an overseas dealer you won't have the protection of uk consumer law, or the ability to enforce it in uk courts (and if you paid by bank transfer you'll probably never see your money again - though even credit card protection isnt always a cert if you are paying via third party like paypal or google checkout) , also mostly the warranty is with the seller not the manufacturer so when they go pop you'll be left with no warranty at all.
 
So can I assume that HDEW are definitely not breaking the law as they are a UK company?
only Hdew or HMRC can answer that (and HMRC won't due to DPA) ... but if you want to be sure ask them
I now have and they said they are perfectly legit and pay all duties and taxes.
I know I'm going to come across as cynical here, but what did you expect them to say?

I would very much like to believe HDEW are legit. I'd like to believe it's a total coincidence that their prices are generally what you'd expect to see if they were selling illegal imports on which VAT had not been paid. I'd like to believe that the tangled web of companies in the background (discussed here) exists solely for the purposes of some clever but legitimate tax planning. I'd like to believe that they have identified some clever tax dodge that even the likes of Amazon haven't thought of.
 
Well I've got my VAT receipts and Canon are happy. As I say I really don't believe companies like Adorama or B&H in the states and others like HDEW who, though smaller, are still long established UK companies are all on the fiddle. I would guess there's an advantage in being a main dealer for a brand and some large companies adopt that business model whereas some don't.

Another question. If people feel these companies are operating illegally and hurting their own business why not take it up with either HMRC or trading standards or someone? Is it really the case that the UK and US authorities are so powerless they can do nothing? I had always thought it was only once you got to a certain size and became like Vodafone that you were allowed to stop paying taxes
 
Stewart, that was the thread I linked to above & especially post #25, because some folk were dubious about how she knew/suspected links to other `names`.

As Pete says, once you aware of any risks/issues, you pays your money & makes your choice.
 
Pay by bloody Credit Card if you are nervous, which most people do anyway …. let the Bank take the financial risk of non delivery as if the Bank gives them the CC facility they should ensure that they are legit!!!
 
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