Park Cameras - Selling open box items as new?

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manualfocus-g said:
I'm not sure why a grey item would have a lower used value, particularly if the warranty had expired. I know some dealers won't take greys as p/x, but that's about it isn't it?
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Ive bought greys before - once the warranty bas expired, whats the difference?
 
big soft moose said:
that i rarely keep my boxes so so long as the kit is unused i could care less if its a split kit. turning down a british split kit in favour of a grey import is also bonkers because a grey import will have a lesser future value than the uk stock (assuming you are honest about provenance)

end of the day by the time i sell my kit it will be worth peanuts anyway - i'm about to sell a 20D for example - and no one will care what box it came in
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I have every box for my kit, stored in a big cardboard box in the loft.
Doesn't necessarily add value, but when I sold out 400D it was nice to give the purchaser the item in the original box, with unused software, cables etc.
 
Byker28i said:
I have every box for my kit, stored in a big cardboard box in the loft.
Doesn't necessarily add value, but when I sold out 400D it was nice to give the purchaser the item in the original box, with unused software, cables etc.
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I do the same - just wish I had a bigger loft - :D

I think it makes it easier to sell, but not always for more money - thats more dependant on the condition...
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
the resale value of the camera is unaffected by its import status once its out of warranty its immaterial.
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Nope - if you bought it for say £600 when Uk RRP is say a grand - after 3 years the UK model might be worth £600 , but no one in their right mind would pay that for a grey import (assuming you are honest about its provenance) because they'd be able to get a new grey model for the same money.

This is why when you are part exing kit most dealers give you a lower price for grey items (if they'll take them at all) because they'll get a lower resale price for them , simples
 
Interesting, Ive never seen a dealer advertise a used item as a grey import and priced it accordingly, its just another used item.
 
big soft moose said:
Nope - if you bought it for say £600 when Uk RRP is say a grand - after 3 years the UK model might be worth £600 , but no one in their right mind would pay that for a grey import (assuming you are honest about its provenance) because they'd be able to get a new grey model for the same money.

This is why when you are part exing kit most dealers give you a lower price for grey items (if they'll take them at all) because they'll get a lower resale price for them , simples
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i must say i find this logic odd too...surely its immaterial how much it cost in the first place. its the same camera, the same QC when leaving the factory and the same spec? After warranty has elapsed its the same. Nobody is gonna care what sort of deal you got or how much you paid in the first instance. The 2nd hand price is the 2nd hand price. If I got a UK sourced model at an unbelievably discounted price that wouldnt make it worth any less on resale would it?
 
Rich_Ellis said:
i must say i find this logic odd too...surely its immaterial how much it cost in the first place. its the same camera, the same QC when leaving the factory and the same spec? After warranty has elapsed its the same. Nobody is gonna care what sort of deal you got or how much you paid in the first instance. The 2nd hand price is the 2nd hand price. If I got a UK sourced model at an unbelievably discounted price that wouldnt make it worth any less on resale would it?
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but when you sell a second hand camera - people are going to make offers based on what it is worth new. If it was uk stock you'd have a clear case for insisting that price pointing was with uk stock ... if it was grey you could expect price pointing with grey stock.

on your example if you got a uk sourced model very cheap - that would effect how much you can get for it if you admit what you paid.

Alright harry wanna buy a new motor - I gt this for 400 quid but its yours for 600 because they are lke a grand new, innit - doesnt really fly
 
big soft moose said:
but when you sell a second hand camera - people are going to make offers based on what it is worth new. If it was uk stock you'd have a clear case for insisting that price pointing was with uk stock ... if it was grey you could expect price pointing with grey stock.

on your example if you got a uk sourced model very cheap - that would effect how much you can get for it if you admit what you paid.

Alright harry wanna buy a new motor - I gt this for 400 quid but its yours for 600 because they are lke a grand new, innit - doesnt really fly
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We will have to totally agree to disagree. It is completely irrelevant how much i paid for it to any prospective purchaser. The used price is the used price for the item on the general market. i have never in my life sold anything 2nd hand (camera related or not) and told the purchaser how much i originally bought it for. I have never asked a seller that I'm buying from either. Thats not being dishonest, its just irrelevant for a purchaser. The only important aspect is the price versus the general market and the item's condition.
 
Rich_Ellis said:
We will have to totally agree to disagree. It is completely irrelevant how much i paid for it to any prospective purchaser. The used price is the used price for the item on the general market. i have never in my life sold anything 2nd hand (camera related or not) and told the purchaser how much i originally bought it for. I have never asked a seller that I'm buying from either. Thats not being dishonest, its just irrelevant for a purchaser. The only important aspect is the price versus the general market and the item's condition.
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Many dealers won't take in `grey` goods as a trade. Also in the classifieds on here folk tend to ask where it was bought from.

It's a similar thing when trading in a car. If they know you didn't pay full recommended dealer price, (ex demo, pre reg, import etc) they'll offer you less.
 
OldCarlos said:
Many dealers won't take in `grey` goods as a trade. Also in the classifieds on here folk tend to ask where it was bought from.

It's a similar thing when trading in a car. If they know you didn't pay full recommended dealer price, (ex demo, pre reg, import etc) they'll offer you less.
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Honestly not being difficult here, i have never heard of this before in my life and i have sold many a 2nd hand car, some from europe back in the day it was worth doing! And to main dealers. And camera gear but hey ho, my bad. Sure if warranty is to be affected or spec is different, otherwise, whats the difference?

I have NEVER been asked by a car dealer if I bought it as ex-demo or not. It is a car, has a 2nd hand value based on condition and mileage and sell on value. Come to think of it, never seen one advertised as import unless it's LHD. I've never seen a Glasses Guide giving a price based on how much the current owner paid for it. Or indeed how many owners it's had for that matter. Obviously something only I've never heard of.
 
If I am buying as second hand out of guarantee piece of camera kit what on earth difference does it make whether it was made in china and sold from china or made in china and then sold from the uk. We dont manufacture camera equipment in the UK it comes from abroad anyway - grey imports are EXACTLY the same kit just with different plugs and instructions in another language. Its all about taxes and import duties and NOTHING to do with the quality or resale value of the equipment.
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
If I am buying as second hand out of guarantee piece of camera kit what on earth difference does it make whether it was made in china and sold from china or made in china and then sold from the uk. We dont manufacture camera equipment in the UK it comes from abroad anyway - grey imports are EXACTLY the same kit just with different plugs and instructions in another language. Its all about taxes and import duties and NOTHING to do with the quality or resale value of the equipment.
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You might feel that way, but many retailers and buyers will disagree with you. A grey camera will be worth less (or perhaps not even considered for purchase) by some.

Try and sell a grey item to MPB, for example.

Have a look on eBay at what a Canon 650D will realise compared to what a Canon T4i will. Exact same camera, same specs, but unlike others where a seller might try and conceal the origins they can't do so.

To take it a step further, you will normally make slightly more money for an item with the original receipt (again, theoretically it shouldn't add anything to value but does), as it gives the item more provenance.
 
Dave1 said:
You might feel that way, but many retailers and buyers will disagree with you. A grey camera will be worth less (or perhaps not even considered for purchase) by some.

Try and sell a grey item to MPB, for example.

Have a look on eBay at what a Canon 650D will realise compared to what a Canon T4i will. Exact same camera, same specs, but unlike others where a seller might try and conceal the origins they can't do so.

To take it a step further, you will normally make slightly more money for an item with the original receipt (again, theoretically it shouldn't add anything to value but does), as it gives the item more provenance.
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But that's because most people don't know what a T4i is and would be wary thus reducing its 2nd hand market value in UK as it would have a smaller market here. Not the same for a 5D.

Just looked at all the major re-sellers websites and nowhere do they even mention imports anywhere. Newer items with warranties I have no argument with you as market prices would be reduced because of it. Out of warranty, no difference.

If individuals want to pass up a good condition 5D Mark I I because it came from the USA then more fool them. Why? Same camera, same spec, same qc? Madness in my view.
 
Dave1 said:
Try and sell a grey item to MPB, for example.
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There are two reasons why MPB may refuse grey imports -
  1. Their morals are such that they believe that criminals who undercut UK suppliers shouldn't be supported.
  2. Selling goods known to have been smuggled into the UK is illegal.
Either of those would be a good enough reason for them to demand proof of payment of VAT for them to accept any goods.
 
big soft moose said:
but when you sell a second hand camera - people are going to make offers based on what it is worth new. If it was uk stock you'd have a clear case for insisting that price pointing was with uk stock ... if it was grey you could expect price pointing with grey stock.
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I agree that people buying a used camera are going to make offers based on what it costs new but they won't care how much you paid for that particular camera. Just how much they can get a new one for now.

I (personally) can't see what difference it makes to the used price whether the original purchase was UK stock or Grey.

People may choose not to buy a used grey but that's nothing to do with price. Assuming condition is like for like and the warranty has expired - they have the same used value.

The only difference is how much loss the seller incurs due to their original purchase price..
 
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hollis_f said:
There are two reasons why MPB may refuse grey imports -
  1. Their morals are such that they believe that criminals who undercut UK suppliers shouldn't be supported.
  2. Selling goods known to have been smuggled into the UK is illegal.
Either of those would be a good enough reason for them to demand proof of payment of VAT for them to accept any goods.
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Having sold kit to MPB i can confirm that they neither ask nor care if it is uk or grey , the price they offer is based on the condition of the item. Do you see any of their items for sale listed as uk or grey ? no - because its of no interest to either the seller the buyer or the future owner. The only time it would make a difference is if you are daft enough to tell someone its grey in which case they will take full advantage of your naivety and chip you on the price.
 
D
big soft moose said:
Because it cost less intially - so if used pricce after x years is a % of new price if the new price was lower so is the used - simple
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Doesn't make sense. A [insert camera name] [insert age] years old and worth [insert value] is a [insert camera name] [insert age] years old and worth the same wherever it was sourced and so worth
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
Having sold kit to MPB i can confirm that they neither ask nor care if it is uk or grey , the price they offer is based on the condition of the item. Do you see any of their items for sale listed as uk or grey ? no - because its of no interest to either the seller the buyer or the future owner. The only time it would make a difference is if you are daft enough to tell someone its grey in which case they will take full advantage of your naivety and chip you on the price.
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I sold a lens to mpb about a year or so ago there was a form that had to be filled in and which had a section you had to complete confirming that the item was not a grey import. Unless things have changed since then they will not buy grey imports.
 
f/2.8 said:
I sold a lens to mpb about a year or so ago there was a form that had to be filled in and which had a section you had to complete confirming that the item was not a grey import. Unless things have changed since then they will not buy grey imports.
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Exactly - although they must take them sometimes (or possibly people lie on the form) because they do sell them ocassionally, and always state in the description that its grey sourced and discount the price to account for this
 
big soft moose said:
Because it cost less intially - so if used pricce after x years is a % of new price if the new price was lower so is the used - simple
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I agree in as much that 'used price' is a % of 'new price' however it's the 'new price' now. Nothing to do with how much the seller happened to pay for his or her camera.
 
What does 'grey' actually mean? Or, what has it come to mean?

If an item is purchased within Europe, then appropriate taxes would've been paid if it was a reputable dealer and HMRC are not bothered (not talking dodgy stuff here or above a certain value). And what about Wordwide guarantees as offered by some Japanese Manufacturers? How can that not be honoured just because you've not used a particular Country's 'recognised' importer?

Pardon the pun, but the whole issue is a 'grey' area :)

Personally, I do not purchase grey items but that's just my personal morality code - the questions still beg though.
 
dinners said:
I agree in as much that 'used price' is a % of 'new price' however it's the 'new price' now. Nothing to do with how much the seller happened to pay for his or her camera.
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yes but if it a uk camera you price point against uk price now - if its grey you price point agains reputable grey price now... so a grey used item is worth less
 
pointless diversion of thread anyway - my core point was that i'd rather have a uk sourced split kit, than a grey import... end of the day who cares if a kit is split, it doesnt affect the warranty or value of the equipment purchased
 
big soft moose said:
yes but if it a uk camera you price point against uk price now - if its grey you price point agains reputable grey price now... so a grey used item is worth less
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Not sure how this is being misunderstood ?

There is no such thing as a UK Camera. We do not manufacture the cameras here.

Canon 5dmk3 leaves factory in Japan , it can then be sold by Japanese retailers in their country at their price , or sold by retailers online based in Japan at that price leaving you to gamble with the import duty , or you can buy it from a UK Dealer who has bough it from Japan ( probably cheap ) and is now going to sell you it at an inflated UK price ! , or you can buy it from a UK Dealer who has imported it and paid all duties on it for you.

Its still the same camera !

The issues with buying grey imports are down to the guarantee the supplier and the duty paid. Therefore once out of warantee there is no difference between a grey and sold from UK Camera.

MPB do not ask for grey details i have sold many items to them and its of no concern , neither would it be if i bought one as MPB guarantee their products themselves so there is no issue.
 
big soft moose said:
yes but if it a uk camera you price point against uk price now - if its grey you price point agains reputable grey price now... so a grey used item is worth less
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I don't think people price point used grey against new grey and used UK against new UK.

Used cameras (out of warranty) are price pointed against other used cameras of the same age and condition.

The going rate for any used camera is driven by a combination of all the various options for buying new.
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
MPB do not ask for grey details i have sold many items to them and its of no concern , neither would it be if i bought one as MPB guarantee their products themselves so there is no issue.
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f/2.8 said:
I sold a lens to mpb about a year or so ago there was a form that had to be filled in and which had a section you had to complete confirming that the item was not a grey import. Unless things have changed since then they will not buy grey imports.
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Hmmm

I'm with f2.8 on this as thats my experience of MPB also
 
dinners said:
I don't think people price point used grey against new grey and used UK against new UK.

Used cameras (out of warranty) are price pointed against other used cameras of the same age and condition.

The going rate for any used camera is driven by a combination of all the various options for buying new.
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TP classified has a no price pointing against grey rule ! Before it was introduced you could see it all the time in the classifieds, I can buy xxx new for £xxx , so i'm only willing to offer £yyy , yes but that price is from panamoz , but my item was UK sourced ... etc

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with buying grey per se (so long as tax and vat are paid - but thats a different argument) , my point was merely that if you buy an item new for say £600 it isnt going to have the same used value as one that sells new for £1000. (and grey import items are not always identical to UKsourced , frequently the chargers are different, the manuals are different, sometimes the branding is different (e.g Rebel vs xxxD) and so forth)
 
I agree with you in terms of there being some differences.

What I'm saying is used prices of cameras are what they are because Grey imports exist as an alternative option to buy new.

If there were no such thing as grey imports then used prices would be higher.
 
Something is only fundamentally worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.

If person A won't pay £X - 20% for a 2nd hand item because they can purchase the same item new and boxed for £X -18% then it's not worth going 2nd hand for them.
If person A does care about it a 'grey import', then they might/will pay. Making sweeping statements about a very split demographic is meaningless as it's too subjective.
 
big soft moose said:
I'm with f2.8 on this as thats my experience of MPB also
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Same here.


Andrew Davies Photography said:
MPB do not ask for grey details......
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They've bought a couple of items off me this past year & I'm sure there was a question about where sourced/receipt.

I also had a quote from elsewhere & they asked if items were grey imports.

Andrew Davies Photography said:
...MPB i can confirm that they neither ask nor care if it is uk or grey...
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I'm sure others on here have had the same response from other traders too, so please don't state your experience as `fact` when it's clearly not the case for others. ;)

(btw I'm not saying it should necessarily matter to the buyer, just that it happens :cool: )
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
there is a form on their website, it does not ask for source of equipment . Simple as that really ;)
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From the MPB terms and conditions http://www.mpbphotographic.co.uk/further-info/terms-and-conditions/

5.3.2 In entering into a sale or part exchange the seller (you) is responsible for assuring that all equipment offered for sale has been legally imported into the EU. MPB Photographic reserve the right to refuse purchase on any items purchased from Non EU sellers or sellers based within the EU where evidence of full VAT compliance is not available. Where the seller (you) is the first owner of the equipment a VAT receipt may be required as proof of purchase. Where the seller (you) is the second owner of the equipment further information may be requested and acceptance of the transaction is at the discretion of MPB Photographic.
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5.6.3 MPB Photographic retain the right to cancel the transaction or adjust the valuation for any reason inclusive of, but not limited to:
If items differ in age, useage or exact model from that quoted
If items are faulty or show signs of imminent failure
If items are not as described
If items do not include necessities such as batteries or chargers.
If items show signs of excessive wear not previously described
If items show signs of having impact or other damage
If items show signs of internal fungal growth or damp
If items are not EU or UK stock
If MPB Photographic suspects the product is 'non original' in any way
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so thats the definitive answer to that :bang:
 
Dave1 said:
You think so? This is TP, someone is still bound to argue ;).
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well yes - but its definitive enough for me to not worry about debating the point further.
 
They dont ask for a VAT receipt or any proof of purchase when purchasing equipment, they are simply covering themselves in case of litigation in their terms and conditions.

At the end of the day all of this scaremongering and nonsense about grey imports along with tons of incorrect assumptions is of no use to anyone. The consumer needs to know the facts of the matter when purchasing and that is simple , the equipment itself is no different. You may get a foreign plug and have to change the menus to English but that's about it.

To claim the equipment is somehow of lesser value at a later date because it was originally brought into a country and the correct VAT not paid is a nonsense, the equipment holds exactly the same value later as the same equipment brought in with VAT paid. It is only at the time of their entry and original purchase that those prices may differ.
 
OldCarlos said:
Not sure what you are trying to prove :confused: but I (& others) have been asked about grey goods. Simple as that really ;)
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Agreed - they refused to buy a camera from me once because it was non-UK sourced.

On the whole issue of second hand values, I agree that it shouldn't rationally make any difference. Unfortunately, the second hand market is anything but rational and, in my experience, people expect to pay less for grey imports.
 
.... and moving onto the next argument; what is the best way to polish a turd?
 
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