Park Cameras - Selling open box items as new?

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Andrew Davies Photography said:
They dont ask for a VAT receipt or any proof of purchase when purchasing equipment, they are simply covering themselves in case of litigation in their terms and conditions.

At the end of the day all of this scaremongering and nonsense about grey imports along with tons of incorrect assumptions is of no use to anyone. The consumer needs to know the facts of the matter when purchasing and that is simple , the equipment itself is no different. You may get a foreign plug and have to change the menus to English but that's about it.

To claim the equipment is somehow of lesser value at a later date because it was originally brought into a country and the correct VAT not paid is a nonsense, the equipment holds exactly the same value later as the same equipment brought in with VAT paid. It is only at the time of their entry and original purchase that those prices may differ.
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Try selling on any forum,and their will ask if it was UK or grey stock,and that can affect the price sometimes :)
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
They dont ask for a VAT receipt or any proof of purchase when purchasing equipment, they are simply covering themselves in case of litigation in their terms and conditions.
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odd given that they did ask about import and vat status when I sold them stuff, and f2.8, and old carlos and Gcogger (and countless other accounts on the internet).

they don't always ask for a VAT receipt (e.g ig you are selling them uk sourced stock) but they do if you are selling them an import (in the one case that i sold them an import that was okay because i pay VAT on my imports), they did however quote lower than they would for uk stock . If you can't provide a VAt receipt or otherwise demonstrate that it has been legally imported they won't buy it... simples

To be honest andrew you are just making yourself look daft now insisting that black is white... why not just admit you are wrong on this and move on
 
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Andrew Davies Photography said:
At the end of the day all of this scaremongering and nonsense about grey imports along with tons of incorrect assumptions is of no use to anyone. The consumer needs to know the facts of the matter when purchasing and that is simple , the equipment itself is no different. You may get a foreign plug and have to change the menus to English but that's about it.
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Also I agree that theres not usually a problem with grey imports per se - although supplying a foreign plug and adaptor is illegal in the uk , and most dealers won't take those either. The only point I'm making here is that when you come to sell it , if you are honest about where you got it the price will be lower than it is for uk stock -that may not matter as if you got a lower price buying , passing that price on may not be a problem.

However returning to the comment that kicked this off it makes no sense to send back a uk stock split kit because you fear that will affect the second hand price, and then buy a grey import - because being grey will have a greater impact on the value than it being part of a split kit (assuming in both cases that you are honest about its provenance)
 
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Andrew Davies Photography said:
You may get a foreign plug and have to change the menus to English but that's about it.
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You were arguing about them not being bothered about grey goods though. :rolleyes:

BTW it's illegal in this country to supply goods with a foreign plug ;) (maybe that's another reason they ask?)
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
They dont ask for a VAT receipt or any proof of purchase when purchasing equipment, they are simply covering themselves in case of litigation in their terms and conditions.

At the end of the day all of this scaremongering and nonsense about grey imports along with tons of incorrect assumptions is of no use to anyone. The consumer needs to know the facts of the matter when purchasing and that is simple , the equipment itself is no different. You may get a foreign plug and have to change the menus to English but that's about it.

To claim the equipment is somehow of lesser value at a later date because it was originally brought into a country and the correct VAT not paid is a nonsense, the equipment holds exactly the same value later as the same equipment brought in with VAT paid. It is only at the time of their entry and original purchase that those prices may differ.
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Just to add even more confirmation to Petes post.

I emailed MPB and asked if they would buy grey stock, they replied saying no, they will not.
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
ermm lol of course they would say that if you rang and told them !
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So to sum up

MPB say on their website they won't buy grey (unless its provably VAT paid)
they have also confirmed this by email
and at last count 5 members have reported this to be the case based on their experience

But Andrew knows better because. um well it doesnt mention it on their website (except in the T&C) and err... well anyway he knows better than MPB themselves what their policies are, or sumthink, and we should accept this as gospel despite overwheming evidence to the contrary because he is never wrong
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
ermm lol of course they would say that if you rang and told them !
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Er, OK, so we just ignore everything you said previously? What you mean is MPB will buy your grey items if you lie and conceal the origin? Not quite your previous sentiment.

For example:

Andrew Davies Photography said:
MPB do not ask for grey details i have sold many items to them and its of no concern , neither would it be if i bought one as MPB guarantee their products themselves so there is no issue.
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Andrew Davies Photography said:
If your going to sell something on and are daft enough to tell someone you got it cheap in the first place then there really is no help for you.
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So what you are actually saying that MPB will buy grey if you lie to them about it being grey (or lie by ommision) and tick the box confirming it isnt on the declaration form ? - that's probably true (unless they discover later that you misled them in which case their T&C give them the right to cancel the transaction), but its also unethical and borderline fraudulent behaviour.

when in a hole, its best to stop digging
 
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OldCarlos said:
I've bookmarked you just in case you advertise in the classifieds. :D
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Lol ! , fortunately as my kits all business purchases its all purchased here anyway at full price, i do however have a friend who has just purchased a 5D3 from HDEW for an incredible price and its arrived and is A1 , new plug, screens in english all brand spanking and saved £800 !!
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
?

I think the fact that MPB are trying to pay less for identical equipment which is out of warantee anyway is the unethical part , that's simply taking the p*** out of people selling.
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MPB don't buy grey unless the VAT is correctly paid on it - therefore it's no cheaper.

However, it looks like you have tricked them into buying grey... i have sold many items to them and its of no concern

Grey market concerns
http://www.canon.co.uk/greymarket/
http://www.wexphotographic.com/?/aboutus/no-grey-imports.html
 
OldCarlos said:
I was joking btw. ;)

Presumably your kit, bought for business use, would enable you to claim the VAT back, so no point in you purchasing grey?
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Lol i know. No i cant claim vat back on grey , however given the savings i have seen recently will be having a word with the accountants about whether its worth purchasing it grey as its that much cheaper and how all the depreciation etc will affect things ..
The only thing i would lose out on is the Canon Professional Services membership as they wont cover grey goods so the turnaround on repairs could be to long to be worth the risk.

When my friend bought the HDEW 5D3 i checked it out for him and the repair centre they use is in Glasgow ! ( canon authorised ) though so i think the disadvantages of grey goods are fast dissapearing.
 
Andrew Davies Photography said:
When my friend bought the HDEW 5D3 i checked it out for him and the repair centre they use is in Glasgow ! ( canon authorised ) though so i think the disadvantages of grey goods are fast dissapearing.
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HDew will do a vat receipt as well (and uk plugs on chargers) and they import the kit themselves and then sell it here- the disadvantages of using them have never been pronounced - its less straightforward with dealers who pretend to be uk based but arent, or those who are straight about the fact they are based in kowloon or whereever
 
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One thing I don't understand about the differential between Grey and UK retailed cameras is that most of the manufacturers have none transferable warranty so if you are buying a Grey or a 2nd hand UK supplied Camera within its warranty period they will both have the same warranty - ie None so why is the price/value different - its only the original owner who benefits from the warranty!
Personally I find this distinction between Grey and UK supplied cameras a bit strange - the only real issue is the duty and tax payable on a grey and even that can have been paid from some of the HK suppliers.
 
I bought the Canon 7D mkii from Jessops and the box was open. When I asked why it was open the manager said all boxes are unsealed, there was no sign of a seal. I checked the clicks on getting home it was Zero. As it happened the camera went wrong and I took the camera back and the only 7D mkii they had was a display model but a new one was arriving the following day. He give me the display model to take home and play with and. The shop is in Canterbury about 30 mile away and when I got home the actuavations were 275 but the camera worked like a dream. I telephoned him that afternoon and he offered to knock £30 of the demo model but I declined and said I wanted new because if it went wrong I would kick myself.
The following day I collected my new camera and it was in another open box. I took it outside and took 6 photographs and it was perfect. When I arrived home I checked its clicks and it was 6.
I can understand why they come in a open, so customers can inspect them before they are taken away. I have bought from awex and Park and their boxes are always sealed because item is posted to you. My new camera is spot on and Jessops were brilliant, I thought I was losing the camera to the repair centre for a month.
 
Overexposed said:
One thing I don't understand about the differential between Grey and UK retailed cameras is that most of the manufacturers have none transferable warranty so if you are buying a Grey or a 2nd hand UK supplied Camera within its warranty period they will both have the same warranty - ie None so why is the price/value different - its only the original owner who benefits from the warranty!
Personally I find this distinction between Grey and UK supplied cameras a bit strange - the only real issue is the duty and tax payable on a grey and even that can have been paid from some of the HK suppliers.
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because (as we may have mentioned once or twice) its not about the warranty (the reputable grey dealers offer their own warranty anyway) , its about

a) the purchase price new / the comparable purchase price of a new one - I'm not going to buy your xxD for £800 if its grey stock and new ones are going for £825 , however I might if its Uk stock a new ones are going for £1000 (all prices made up for examples sake)

b) the other issues that can attend grey purchases - such as non UK plugs on chargers (illegal tosell in the uk), litterature in foreign languages, menu s ditto - and so forth

Bottom line greys cost less new so they also cost less second hand - QED (incidentally which HK suppliers provide a full (not misdeclared) accoiunting of the VAT ? I can only think of HDEW who are essentially UK based anyway)
 
big soft moose said:
because (as we may have mentioned once or twice) its not about the warranty (the reputable grey dealers offer their own warranty anyway) , its about

a) the purchase price new / the comparable purchase price of a new one - I'm not going to buy your xxD for £800 if its grey stock and new ones are going for £825 , however I might if its Uk stock a new ones are going for £1000 (all prices made up for examples sake)

b) the other issues that can attend grey purchases - such as non UK plugs on chargers (illegal tosell in the uk), litterature in foreign languages, menu s ditto - and so forth

Bottom line greys cost less new so they also cost less second hand - QED (incidentally which HK suppliers provide a full (not misdeclared) accoiunting of the VAT ? I can only think of HDEW who are essentially UK based anyway)
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Not to mention some manufacturers wouldn't touch grey (Sigma IIRC) even post warranty if the owner couldn't produce proof of original duty/vat having been paid.
 
Overexposed said:
hmmm id like to see evidence of that!
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I have had a grey Tokina lens that needed repair and Kenro based in Swindon (The UK Tokina importer) flat refused to even look at it - I even offered to take the lens to them myself and pay cash up front for any repairs.
 
Overexposed said:
hmmm id like to see evidence of that!
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Why not go and research it rather than just insinuate it's a lie? It's happened and been reported on the various forums, AMAZINGLY, it's even happened to people on this forum like @JulesP in this very thread.

Why don't satisfy your curiosity by ringing Sigma or Tokina in the morning and ask them if they will work on a grey import from Hong Kong that has not had vat/duty paid on it?
 
Ok I'm convinced but staggered but to be fair its not a distributors place to be asking a customer if they'd paid import duty to vat on it. What would happen if you bought a lens abroad paid the duty on entering the country but couldn't lay your hands on the paperwork. Personally i'd tell them to mind their own business as they are a supplier not HMRC.
 
Overexposed said:
Ok I'm convinced but staggered but to be fair its not a distributors place to be asking a customer if they'd paid import duty to vat on it. What would happen if you bought a lens abroad paid the duty on entering the country but couldn't lay your hands on the paperwork. Personally i'd tell them to mind their own business as they are a supplier not HMRC.
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Maybe so, but you have no right to service and the importer/retailer can choose to only deal with legal stock. You have no UK consumer rights for an item bought abroad, even if you actually did pay the vat on return.

The UK repairer/distributor will (quite legally) refer you back to your supplier.
 
I think if you bought the lens abroad some manufacturers will say that it should go back to that territory for repair. End of the day by buying grey you are undercutting their importer so its pushing the bounds of reasonableness to expect them to help you when your imported kit goes wrong. (although both Canon and Nikon will Afaik)
 
Not sure about other makes but Nikon have different serial number ranges for different countries (certainly for USA) and when they book it in they check serial numbers to make sure its for the right market (although they seem to have relaxed that with the current D750 issues stating its a global recall)
I was up front with Kenro about my Tokina lens and said it was grey to start with - not sure what they would have said if I'd tried to blag it
 
IIRC nikon have a global waranty on lenses but not on camera bodies
 
JulesP said:
Not sure about other makes but Nikon have different serial number ranges for different countries (certainly for USA) and when they book it in they check serial numbers to make sure its for the right market (although they seem to have relaxed that with the current D750 issues stating its a global recall)
I was up front with Kenro about my Tokina lens and said it was grey to start with - not sure what they would have said if I'd tried to blag it
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Are you telling me if you hadn't said up front that the lens was grey that they'd have asked for an invoice and proof the duty was paid? they could ask you for proof of purchase but the vat and duty as got nothing to do with them as its the owners problem. Seems very odd that they wouldn't do a paid repair regardless of the origin
 
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Overexposed said:
Are you telling me if you hadn't said up front that the lens was grey that they'd have asked for an invoice and proof the duty was paid? they could ask you for proof of purchase but the vat and duty as got nothing to do with them as its the owners problem.
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The Sigma .pdf stated that prior to any work on a Sigma lens required proof of all duties and vat having pair before they would consider working on it.

The links are dead now, but this one of the AP reports made at the time.

If they don't want to work on items illegally brought into the UK it is quite within the rights to do so, and asking for proof is the way they would ascertain that status.
 
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