Peter Lik gallery in Las Vegas

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#41
Art doesn't have to be about beauty.
Thats interesting. The dividing point between reportage and art, when photography was not possible. The images displayed on there are very valuable, skilled and important but I certainly would not want them on my house wall or in my office wall. They are so sad.
 
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#42
For sure, but isn't Gursky doing the same thing? How is Lik different to Gursky? If there's art in Rhine II, where is it absent from Lik's work? A dull stretch of river and grass with an overcast sky, shot on large format, Photoshopped for days on end and then printed 3m wide. Looks pretty similar to me. Gursky's 'art' is in having hookwinked the establishment into taking him seriously.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhein_II
It's interesting in that I'm mildly conflicted over this.

The easy path is that Gursky is part of the in club, and therefore considered legitimate by the art establishment. Having seen his stuff however I'd say that some of the images do try to convey something, while others (like Rhine II) are about his thoughts on a subject and without the background info are quite meaningless and even pointless images.


Detailed quote from Retunes link post (thanks for posting this link Retune)

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...er-whose-work-sells-for-millions-9919427.html

"“I’ve never even heard of him,” Martin Parr, the renowned British photographer, says. “It’s pretty astonishing. I’ve looked at his work today and though he’s a very good commercial photographer who can take pictures people like, he has no standing whatever in the fine-art world that I belong to.

I thought this was an interesting quote. I like and respect much of Martin Parrs work, but I would never consider it to be 'fine art'. I find it fascinating how both Lik and Parr categorise themselves in an elite way, particularly as Parr is known for taking images investigating 'class' and its related activities in this country.
From Ed Sutton's sig line: "Documentary is too real – it’s about the world, and I think people prefer the escapism of landscape and fine art photography." - Martin Parr

I'd never have said Parr was a fine art photographer, and would have comfortably placed Lik in the category of 'fine art' (which seems to me to be much more about craftsmanship and pleasure, and not about art at all, although it's usually a category for pictures of naked women too when people want to legitimise what would otherwise be soft porn).
 
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#43
Thats interesting. The dividing point between reportage and art, when photography was not possible. The images displayed on there are very valuable, skilled and important but I certainly would not want them on my house wall or in my office wall. They are so sad.
I think the only certainty is that defining what art is or should be is difficult - and probably impossible!

The thing with photographs is that they can be repurposed.

Eugene Atget took his photographs of Paris as straight documents, in some instances as aids for painters. His photographs were later 'discovered' and displayed as art. It's not a case of being one or the other, photographs can be both.

Martin Parr is as canny a businessman as Lik. He's built a brand. Although his photography is essentially documentary he uses the art world to both promote himself and boost the value of his prints. Some of his exploits have been very much in the mode of contemporary art. Staging multiple, simultaneous exhibitionsaround the world is something I would consider to be verging on performance art. https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/parr-common-sense-p78371 While his individual photographs might not fit the 'fine art' genre, the way he presents them often does.
 
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#44
It's interesting in that I'm mildly conflicted over this.

<snip>
And who wouldn't be - there is a conflict. Not only is there the elusive definition of art to wrestle with, but also how the 'art world' plays a completely different game based on nothing but potential monetary value and epic business bullcrap.

There was a recent TV programme in the fascinating Fake or Fortune series with Fiona Bruce and Philip Mould. They had a wannabe Monet painting that was pretty much worthless in its unauthenticated state, but would fetch £10m or more if it could be proven. I like Monet, but was particularly struck by what a spectacularly dull painting it was (see link). No wonder he hid it away.

Bruce and Mould did their usual excellent job of authenticating the painting beyond any reasonable doubt - apart from one fatal flaw. On a previous occasion, the painting had already been turned down by the official body, whose word was law in the art world. So Bruce and Mould were effectively asking them to say, very publicly, that actually they'd made a mistake. There was zero chance of that happening, lest the whole Tower of Babel should collapse around them.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture...une-French-officials-sent-me-into-a-fury.html
 
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#45
a wannabe Monet painting that was pretty much worthless in its unauthenticated state, but would fetch £10m or more if it could be proven
Which sadly says so much about part of the art world. The fine or bad quality of a picture means nothing at all, its just who its by. Which shows the purchasers and valuers as very shallow people.
 

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#46
Or perhaps it's a raw expression of market driven capitalism and a reflection of rampant consumerism.

Discuss

:)
 
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#48
Which sadly says so much about part of the art world. The fine or bad quality of a picture means nothing at all, its just who its by. Which shows the purchasers and valuers as very shallow people.
I visited a Matisse (I think) exhibition in Copenhagen in January '98 while there on a conference. A colleague whose husband is an artist (Nick Mynheer if anyone's interested) really wanted to see the exhibition, and I was certainly interested enough to tramp through the rain for it. It came as something of a surprise that while some of the work was clearly amazing, much of it would not have looked out of place at a 6th form college. Now it may be that I didn't have a trained eye, but some of it just appeared poorly executed or as though the artist had got bored with a work that hadn't gone right, and abandoned it. For impressionism to work you need to create an impression of something.

As with buying wine, the market for high value art only works because investors are sure that others will also invest in what they've bought. Yes, it's an illusory house of cards that could fall down at any moment, but doesn't because of greed and the relative ease with which humans can be swayed about values and power. But art has always been thus, with rich patrons funding artists and subsequently expecting some kind of return for their money - you can bet the ceiling in the Sistine chapel wasn't decorated by Michael Angelo because a pope really loved his cherubs.

After the recent thread that spoke disparagingly of Thomas Heaton, it would be nice to see his work bring some more substantial pecuniary success.
 
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#49
Which sadly says so much about part of the art world. The fine or bad quality of a picture means nothing at all, its just who its by. Which shows the purchasers and valuers as very shallow people.
That is the state of almost everything now. Vast majority of the general public no longer care about nor understand art, same for workmanship and quality of goods and even food they eat. Hence the birth of pop-culture, pop art (a very watered down version of "real" art in best case), big brands and labels. Versacci suit, D&G watch, Matisse painting, Nike sneakers, Adidas tracksuit, Primark bling bling, etc. It doesn't matter if they are the best or truly inspiring, it is just what the peers are pressuring them into buying. The items almost become a vindication of the person, since as you may imaging the inside is just an empty shell, a scaffold, a hanger for expensive clothes and accessories. People don't read, don't discuss, don't create any more. We are the outliers here.

And of course there is nothing wrong with successful labels and brands. People need to be successful. The problem is mass glorification and worship of brands and logos. Apple anyone? Everyone has that very sinister graphic on their desk or in their pocket - it is part of the uniform. Rolex? Now you've really made it. Diesel or Fat face T-shirt? Hardly one could come up with a more silly brand name, and frankly clothes design, but hey so many are going mad to stick that logo on their torso. Common sense is not so common anymore and that is the real issue. TV doesn't help but it all really starts at school and with parenting.
 
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#50
People don't read, don't discuss, don't create any more. We are the outliers here.
Its funny you should say this. My friend who was in her early 90's passed away last spring. We used to chat about current affairs, politics, psychology, art. She was great and an interesting person who had done amazing things for a woman of her era. We only became friends in the last couple of years. She said she loved our conversations as she had noticed that no one talks about anything of any importance or in any depth any more. She said conversations had become just vague and empty and she could not understand how people had become so opinionless and empty.

Common sense is not so common anymore and that is the real issue. TV doesn't help but it all really starts at school and with parenting.
I think its mostly with parenting, but that itself is a result of the type of society the UK has developed in the last few decades. We have more and more depressed and unhappy children. We have a society where income is so low and pricing so high that both parents have to work full time and kids are left in care centres from 7.30am until 6.00 at night. The government response to this is to offer more and more 'free' childcare in centres instead of helping children spend more time with family members and adults. There is a limit to what children can learn from other children about life skills, they also need intense contact with adults to progress.

The trouble is, most parents now have been brought up in the same way, so have almost no practical skills to pass on, as they never learned them. Not only are they time poor as parents but they are knowledge poor and facility poor as well. In my area there are many houses where there is only 1 room to use as the living room / play room / dinning room / TV space / computer room / office / hobby room and in family houses near me this room is about a 15 feet square, so little space to put storage facilities in it either. So where are families to teach or develop hobbies or skills? Often the garage (if there is one) is in a stand alone block which it is impossible to get electricity to and by default is also insecure due to isolation. so it is dark, cold, damp and things may be stolen from it. So where can people do anything practical such as wood work , art work, anything creative - even if they find the time? Shockingly and sadly these houses are bigger than the houses of next estate over from my area!

I think people have little left these days other than work or using a tiny space to watch TV. For many the kitchen is also effectively in the single downstairs room. I think all that is left for many is keeping up with the Jones to feel some sort of status, shopping or TV.

We have many art trails in the nearest city (Bristol) that run in Autumn or Spring. I have been to lots of them over the years. There are many talented artists & creators including photographers, media artists, woodworkers, metal workers, calligraphers, you name it.

What they have most in common with each other is older, bigger houses, where there is physical space to develop and work. There are no art trails local to me. The houses are impossible to work in. There is no place or space for creativity or initiative to flourish within modern houses.

I saw a statistics set recently about house sizes. Apparently you can fit 5.5 UK average houses inside a single Canadian average size house.
 
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#51
We have a society where income is so low and pricing so high that both parents have to work full time and kids are left in care centres from 7.30am until 6.00 at night
TBH I'd have said that expectation was now so high that parents had to work long hours, abandoning thier children. It's likely quite a number 50 YO or more on this forum remember what it could really be like to be poor, where dinner was often just bread & soup or a few fat ends that could be bought cheap & stretched across a couple of meals.

When we married in '81 we decided not to get a TV, television already becoming overly-influential in guiding thought and understanding. Our children grew up able to express themselves, discuss and have their own opinions and to read books.

I saw a statistics set recently about house sizes. Apparently you can fit 5.5 UK average houses inside a single Canadian average size house.
They do have just a little more land available* than we do. ;) Factor in that they will probably also have to spend many months of the year inside because it's too cold to go out much and suddenly a large house makes a lot of sense. Our friends that we stayed with in Wetaskiwin AB 4 weeks ago had snow when we arrived, and temperatures have not got much above freezing since then.

*Their approach to building is generally horribly unsympathetic to their environment, both natural and urban, generally copying their southern neighbours. Few towns have much of a centre and any sense of care to not spoil rural environments seems mostly absent EXCEPT when it comes to their own frontage and outlook. Driving up the sunshine coast on highway 1 was a shock and disappointment.
 
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#56
Fun Fact: Did you know his middle name begins with a D? His name is Peter D Lik.

Another fun fact is that I just noticed he has a photo extremely similar to Thomas Heaton.....or is it the other way around?

https://lik.com/products/peles-whisper

https://thomasheaton.co.uk/gallery/
Haha... that was obviously a good viewing spot. A quick search on google images suggests there are quite a number of similar shots most likely taken from the same place. Maybe Lik was on one of TH's workshops :D But Lik's sales pitch is in a different league:

Pele's Whisper

LIMITED EDITION
Contact for Pricing
Due to limited availability, this Peter Lik masterwork cannot be purchased online. For collector inquiries, please click the
Request a Quote link to the right. If you would prefer to speak to an Art specialist, please click below to email us.

TBH, sorry to be harsh, but anyone who falls for that kind of sales bull deserves to be ripped off.

Edit: just found this - dozens of tourists taking similar shots
https://www.hawaiimagazine.com/content/lava-has-stopped-flowing-ocean
 
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#57
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#59
What I also found interesting is that his "limited editions" generally have huge runs... like 950 prints and 45 artist proofs. And WTH is special about 45 artist proofs? What I take from that is the LE isn't really limited at all, and the artist proofs are the limited run... kind of... would be if there was anything different/special about them.

A couple of interesting links I found:
New York Times exposes Peter Lik Scheme
Paid $40k 10 yrs ago and can't sell for $10k today

and a hilarious quote from that first article: Peter Lik in reference to his work “It’s like a Mercedes-Benz,” he said. “You drive it off the lot, it loses half its value.”
 
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#61
We might sneer but with just a small percentage of his marketing skills I could have been a lot better off.......:confused:
That is certainly the better way to look at it.

Also you have to realise that his work is optimised for printing and not so much for web display in a crapy restrictive sRGB colour space.
Fun Fact: Did you know his middle name begins with a D? His name is Peter D Lik.

Another fun fact is that I just noticed he has a photo extremely similar to Thomas Heaton.....or is it the other way around?

https://lik.com/products/peles-whisper

https://thomasheaton.co.uk/gallery/
Let me guess which I prefer by a country mile. They are not even similar other than from the same rather accessible spot! Yes, I prefer Lik's by a tall margin.
 
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#62
They do have just a little more land available* than we do. ;) Factor in that they will probably also have to spend many months of the year inside because it's too cold to go out much and suddenly a large house makes a lot of sense.
Until Margaret Thatchers government threw away the minimum room size laws we had decent accommodation here. Even Victorian terraces had 2 downstairs rooms in addition to some sort of separate room kitchen. The upstairs rooms usually allowed you to have a bed AND room to be able to actually open either a wardrobe, a chest of drawers or both!

An ex boss of mine lived in Tokyo, Japan for 18 years and then returned here with his family around 8 years ago. Tokyo was the butt of jokes for years in the UK about what horrible lives the Japanese had due to lack of space and tiny houses. He and his family were horrified by the tiny houses in the UK and the almost non existent sound insulation in them, which left no privacy.

Their 3 bed UK house here was significantly smaller than their 2 bed flat in Japan and these were not rich people by any means, so would not have lived high end in Japan.

A few years back I went to view a house in the South West UK, described as having "a double bedroom and a separate dressing area". There was a small double bed in the bedroom, but you could only walk around 2 sides of it as it had to be rammed up against 2 of the walls. It had to have a separate "dressing area" as there was no room at all for either drawers or wardrobe.

The dressing area was fantastic.... it was a tiny landing area at the top of the stairs where it was easy to fall down them if you mis-stepped. The family living there was using that dangerous area for a child and cot as the cot would not fit in the "double bedroom". This was not in a slum area - this is new builds from around 1990 to 2005 ish.

Funny enough,like the Canadians, I don't sit out in the garden in winter either, its not that warm in the UK! :confused: :)
 
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#63
What I also found interesting is that his "limited editions" generally have huge runs... like 950 prints and 45 artist proofs. And WTH is special about 45 artist proofs? What I take from that is the LE isn't really limited at all, and the artist proofs are the limited run... kind of... would be if there was anything different/special about them.

TBF 10% extra of a 'limited' edition as AP is pretty normal (assuming of course they are genuine APs)
 
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#65
It's a marketing term for 50% more expensive.

The Collins dictionary definition is of a 'proof copy' is:
"In publishing, the proofs of a book, magazine, or article are a first copy of it that is printed so that mistakes can be corrected before more copies are printed and published."

In my experience (magazine publishing) proof copies were often pretty rough and required considerable correction.
 
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#68
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#70
Yes, I understand what proofs are. :)

I wondered if artists proofs were something else, or had become something else........
:)

Google threw up this definition of an 'artist proof' which is pretty honest. Basically, exactly the same but authenticated by the artist as an optimum reproduction to which an artificial premium value can be attached. Same nonsense as 'limited edition'.

http://www.rimrockart.com/what-is-an-artist-proof

edit: Ed beat me to it
 
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#72
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#73
Thanks for that, Dave (and Richard) . It seems that what Lik is doing is actually par for the course then. It's BS.

Although, Richard, I have to disagree with you about Limited Edition prints. Say a print is limited to an edition of 20, that should give the purchaser some re-assurance that every Tom, Dick and Harriet will not be buying one as well.
 
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#74
Although, Richard, I have to disagree with you about Limited Edition prints. Say a print is limited to an edition of 20, that should give the purchaser some re-assurance that every Tom, Dick and Harriet will not be buying one as well.
Yes, I understand that even though I personally think the whole Limited Edition thing is a nonsense when applied to photography. But of course you sell limited edition prints of your own work ;)

On the other hand, this concept has prevented me from buying a copy of your beautiful but sold-out Avocets triptych for our new house. Edit: maybe you should have made it a bit less limited :D
 
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#75
Yes, I understand that even though I personally think the whole Limited Edition thing is a nonsense when applied to photography. But of course you sell limited edition prints of your own work ;)

On the other hand, this concept has prevented me from buying a copy of your beautiful but sold-out Avocets triptych for our new house. Edit: maybe you should have made it a bit less limited :D
You can always have an artist's proof! I think I have a few dozen somewhere.......;)
 
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#77
It was a mistake to limit the edition to 6 of each, I realise that now . The second batch were limited to 10. But I think that some at least of the buyers valued that it really was a limited edition.

People around west Wales in general don't have much disposable income so sales were always going to be "limited".

I think the rules surrounding Ltd. Ed. prints are quite "flexible" in fact, so i could quite easily do another edition at a different size and it would all be hunky dory.

Did you actually see the exhibition somewhere?
 
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#78
It was a mistake to limit the edition to 6 of each, I realise that now . The second batch were limited to 10. But I think that some at least of the buyers valued that it really was a limited edition.

People around west Wales in general don't have much disposable income so sales were always going to be "limited".

I think the rules surrounding Ltd. Ed. prints are quite "flexible" in fact, so i could quite easily do another edition at a different size and it would all be hunky dory.

Did you actually see the exhibition somewhere?
In reality, the Limited Edition rules are anything you want to make them. That's the marketing myth, but buyers appear to be very willing victims so that's cool :cool: It's a bit like 'homemade cakes' that have never been near anyone's home - tastes the same, but gives you a warm feeling*.

I only saw the exhibition images on your website (I think) and the Avocets triptych just resonated with me, from a boyhood visit to the RSPB's Havergate Island reserve :)

* Homemade simply means made from raw ingredients (legal definition). Usually in a factory!
 
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#79
Until Margaret Thatchers government threw away the minimum room size laws we had decent accommodation here. Even Victorian terraces had 2 downstairs rooms in addition to some sort of separate room kitchen. The upstairs rooms usually allowed you to have a bed AND room to be able to actually open either a wardrobe, a chest of drawers or both!

An ex boss of mine lived in Tokyo, Japan for 18 years and then returned here with his family around 8 years ago. Tokyo was the butt of jokes for years in the UK about what horrible lives the Japanese had due to lack of space and tiny houses. He and his family were horrified by the tiny houses in the UK and the almost non existent sound insulation in them, which left no privacy.

Their 3 bed UK house here was significantly smaller than their 2 bed flat in Japan and these were not rich people by any means, so would not have lived high end in Japan.

A few years back I went to view a house in the South West UK, described as having "a double bedroom and a separate dressing area". There was a small double bed in the bedroom, but you could only walk around 2 sides of it as it had to be rammed up against 2 of the walls. It had to have a separate "dressing area" as there was no room at all for either drawers or wardrobe.

The dressing area was fantastic.... it was a tiny landing area at the top of the stairs where it was easy to fall down them if you mis-stepped. The family living there was using that dangerous area for a child and cot as the cot would not fit in the "double bedroom". This was not in a slum area - this is new builds from around 1990 to 2005 ish.

Funny enough,like the Canadians, I don't sit out in the garden in winter either, its not that warm in the UK! :confused: :)
I really loath the tiny, tiny houses that are being built in the UK now, but that's not why you can fit 5.5 UK houses into 1 Canadian house. I also remember well, from house-hunting twice in the 80s, plenty of older houses around both London and Oxfordshire that had box rooms that could barely take a single bed for a 3rd bedroom or with the second and third tiny 'double' bedrooms end to end so that the third room was accessed through the second (2 doorways also impacts usable space in a room). Small houses are not new.

As for the Canadian winter, our friends in Wetaskiwin had snow during the second week of September, and the weather has not warmed up since. Where they used to live near Saskatoon it was not unusual for the temperature never to rise above zero from beginning November to end or March, and with lows often less than -40'C, so that it's not a case of not sitting in the garden, so much as not actually leaving the house unless essential.

But sure, small houses = impoverished living experience, I agree.
 
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#80
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But sure, small houses = impoverished living experience, I agree.
Small and mega expensive coffin size apartments that people can't afford to buy and are forced to rent at eye watering prices. It sounds almost as bad as NY or San Francisco and it really is almost as bad in some cases. At least it is still better than China - some lower paid personnel apparently live in cages in big towers. It is hard to believe but that is one of my one time clients told me from his memories of secondment in China. We will get even worse off as long the current legal climate allows purchase of RE by foreign buyers purely as investment and also short term rentals which I see almost every day first hand through my line of work. It is totally unsustainable with increasing population numbers and rising costs of just about everything. So don't be surprised I am fed up with the system and the champagne socialist elites that look down on you like some filthy farm animals. I had the joy of photographing one room where ex-jihadist-in-chief stayed overnight right next to ex-PMs house and owners were very difficult to relate to in human language.

probably not as bad as this but we are well on the way https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/10/15/rats-nycha-claremont-consolidated-houses-bronx/
 
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