Shooting and Explosions in Paris

[Cobra]

You've already said yourself that we didn't. Humans and apes share a common ancestor, that's different from evolving from them.

Erm no I didn't


If you are referring to this it was in answer to the llama, who said the missing link had been found

Transitional ape/hominins, or proto-hominins. These creatures lived just after the divergence from our common hominid ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos,
Try again

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Agree with all of that except the last word. Science is not a belief system, because it is self-critical and adaptable and based around logic and evidence, not supernatural dogma.

In practise, of course, science is susceptible to the same social factors as any human activity, but that's a whole different subject worthy of it's own thread ( look up 'Sociology of Scientific Knowledge' - SSK is a fascinating subject and was one of my favourite topics at University).

I mis-typed. I was trying to say that some people choose not to believe in evolution despite the evidence.

You are quite right in saying that science is not a belief system. One quote I (vaguely) remember was one scientists life-work being disproven (i may be slightly exaggerating here) and him congratulating the scientist for showing him how he was wrong. This wouldn't if there was a belief system.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Transitional ape/hominins, or proto-hominins. These creatures lived just after the divergence from our common hominid ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos,
Try again

That's what I read this as ^

 

[Deleted member 49549]

As I understand it, like all good arguments, the jury is still out on that one

OK, lets talk about your missing link. What exactly is missing?

 

[Llamaman]

Read what Antony Flew wrote about Richard Dawkins' book.

Why would I give much credence to what a philosopher has to say about science?
Flew's 1987 work was largely written by someone else anyway and Flew himself admitted (in his interview with Duncan Crary) that he was unable to keep up with scientific theory.

 

[Cobra]

That's what I read this as ^

Yep, and that quote as above was disproving that the missing link had been found.
Not proving the fact that we were a parallel species.

Is your head spinning yet? mine is, this is not good for a wet and dismal Tuesday

 

[Llamaman]

So you are in doubt about evolution purely because one small evolutionary step is not documented in the fossil record, and and are not convinced by the vast amount of fossil and genetic evidence, or the fact that evolution has been observed occurring both in the wild and the lab?

Sounds like there's a theist in you trying to cling onto your comfort blanket...

 

[big soft moose]

Or as I said just to throw another theory into the discussion

Didnt Adams already cover that - it was a number of telephone earpiece cleaners who'd been banished from their own planet for having a pointless proffesion ... the people left behind then died from a plague caught from telephone earpieces

 

[Cobra]

OK, lets talk about your missing link. What exactly is missing?

The direct link between men and apes.
And look at the African tribes, and then your average European features.
We all know that the dark tougher skin is to protect against the glaring heat of the sun.
The European features are miles apart from the African tribes men.
So there should be 2 distinct missing links, one with " lighter" facial features and one with heavier facial features.

(But this is now getting into dangerous territory )

 

[big soft moose]

Also genesis is in the old testament - so are you (@gramps) now saying that Christians do follow the old testament teachings ? (or would it be more accurate to say they follow them when convenient)

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Also genesis is in the old testament - so are you (@gramps) now saying that Christians do follow the old testament teachings ? (or would it be more accurate to say they follow them when convenient)

And don't follow them when they are not convenient. As demonstrated earlier in the thread.

 

[Cobra]

So you are in doubt about evolution purely because one small evolutionary step is not documented in the fossil record,

Yep Coming from a scientific background I need evidence.
Consider this, I produce a panacea but there is just a tiny piece missing, as I've yet to developed or create that 1% of something, that I need to make it work 100% of the time,
So I throw in some shoe polish, because I like the colour. The end result is effective, and plausible, but because that 1% is missing, it'll work for most people, but maybe it'll kill a few people.
This is not acceptable scientific research & development.

Sounds like there's a theist in you trying to cling onto your comfort blanket...

You have no idea just how silly that sounds or just exactly how far off the mark you are with that.

 

[big soft moose]

Yep Coming from a scientific background I need evidence.
.

So if you consider something like the golden mole ... which has fully functioning eyes , but its eyelids are permanently shut and cannot be opened , does that speak more to evoltion or intelligent design ?

Or closer to home - consider the human males testicles - they are as we know on the outside because sperm is heat sensitive and would not survive for long if the testes were internal... if this were inteligent design rather than evolution would it not make more sense to make the sperm heat proof and store the testes out of harms way ?

 

[Llamaman]

I also come from a scientific background and I don't dispute gravity because I haven't seen a rabbit orbiting around Genghis Khan. There is enough evidence already that that particular confirmation is unnecessary.

 

[viv1969]

So if you consider something like the golden mole ... which has fully functioning eyes , but its eyelids are permanently shut and cannot be opened , does that speak more to evoltion or intelligent design ?

Or closer to home - consider the human males testicles - they are as we know on the outside because sperm is heat sensitive and would not survive for long if the testes were internal... if this were inteligent design rather than evolution would it not make more sense to make the sperm heat proof and store the testes out of harms way ?

Christ no.....Where's the fun in that???

 

[big soft moose]

Christ no.....Where's the fun in that???

Shush you

If it was intelligent design it would also have made more sense to make women understandable

 

[gramps]

Why would I give much credence to what a philosopher has to say about science?
Flew's 1987 work was largely written by someone else anyway and Flew himself admitted (in his interview with Duncan Crary) that he was unable to keep up with scientific theory.

I have rebutted these criticisms in the following statement: “My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 per cent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I’m 84 and that was Roy Varghese’s role. The idea that someone manipulated me because I’m old is exactly wrong. I may be old but it is hard to manipulate me. That is my book and it represents my thinking.”

Antony Flew 4th June 2008

 

[boyfalldown]

If it was intelligent design it would also have made more sense to make women understandable

really intelligent design would have made them both more understandable and less obvious at the same time

 

[Llamaman]

Antony Flew 4th June 2008

Ok, so even if we accept they were his views, does not his self-confessed ignorance of the subject matter make him a somewhat unsatisfactory critic of Dawkin's work?

 

[Cobra]

So if you consider something like the golden mole ... which has fully functioning eyes , but its eyelids are permanently shut and cannot be opened , does that speak more to evoltion or intelligent design ?

Evolution

consider the human males testicles - they are as we know on the outside because sperm is heat sensitive and would not survive for long if the testes were internal... if this were inteligent design rather than evolution would it not make more sense to make the sperm heat proof and store the testes out of harms way ?

That's a curious one, as far as I am aware male testicles were never inside the human body in a pubescent male, granted, they drop at puberty,
but all through evolution they were always outside, as far as I am aware.

and I don't dispute gravity because I haven't seen a rabbit orbiting around Genghis Khan.

There is no such thing as gravity, the Earth sucks

There is enough evidence already that that particular confirmation is unnecessary.

Of course there is tangible evidence of gravity ( and velocity) it can be proven in a lab.
The same way that life ( beginning) on earth have been proven in a lab,
We know how it started, we know where it went, ( mostly)
2 things still confuse me
1) why has evolution stopped? have we reached the pinnacle of our existence? ( scary thought if that's true)
2) why is there not definitive proof of the link between apes and humans ( unless of course they did evolve side by side as two separate species)
Make that 3) That you haven't figured out that the Devils advocate is a bloody amateur compared to me

really intelligent design would have made them both more understandable and less obvious at the same time

And at the very least come complete with a roll of duck tape

 

[Cobra]

Ok, so even if we accept they were his views, does not his self-confessed ignorance of the subject matter make him a somewhat unsatisfactory critic of Dawkin's work?

But that fact alone it makes him a prime candidate to be a member here

 

[viv1969]

Shush you

If it was intelligent design it would also have made more sense to make women understandable

Or give men the mental capacity to do so.

 

[boyfalldown]

1) why has evolution stopped? have we reached the pinnacle of our existence? ( scary thought if that's true)

has it? by definition its a slow process over many generations......surely its still going we just can't always see it because of the timescales

 

[viv1969]

1) why has evolution stopped?

I don't believe it has.
It's not something that is noticeable over generations. The timeframe is vast IMO

 

[Cobra]

has it? by definition its a slow process over many generations......surely its still going we just can't always see it because of the timescales

I was just thinking out loud really,
From the oracle
" By 115,000 years ago, early modern humans had expanded their range to South Africa and into Southwest Asia (Israel) shortly after 100,000 years ago".
There has been no change in over 100,000 years

And yet previously to that
A 195,000 year old fossil from the Omo 1 site in Ethiopia shows the beginnings of the skull changes
So we must about due for another change.
Granted its a slow process maybe its slowed down rather than stopped all together,
Maybe the "powers that be" have decided we are almost there and are just tweaking the last minute details

 

[big soft moose]

generally a major change requires a change in conditions - as it stands homo sapiens is ideally suited to life in the 21st century so there is no need to evolve and no competive benefit for those who's genes mutate out of the normal range ... with a major change in conditions might no longer be the case ...

 

[Deleted member 49549]

"Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution, as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all."
Herbert Spencer

 

[Cobra]

Ooo I love internet quotes

“We have reason to believe that man first walked upright to free his hands for masturbation.”
― Lily Tomlin

 

[Llamaman]

2 things still confuse me
1) why has evolution stopped? have we reached the pinnacle of our existence? ( scary thought if that's true)
2) why is there not definitive proof of the link between apes and humans ( unless of course they did evolve side by side as two separate species)
Make that 3) That you haven't figured out that the Devils advocate is a bloody amateur compared to me

1) It hasn't.

2) There is. Best theory at present (based upon both fossil evidence and genetic studies) is that humans and modern apes share a common ancestor. We have much of that divergence evidenced with proto-hominid remains. We might not have the exact first species after that divergence, but as a scientist you would know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Given the way fossilisation occurs, we have a less detailed record of land animals than marine ones, and given the timescales we might never recover a specimen ( there might not even be one left in the Earth).
However, we have enough evidence to be confident of a common ancestor even if we don't ever find it. There is a wealth of other information to confirm evolution without hanging the whole theory on finding a specimen of one short-lived extinct species just because it happens to be out ancestor.

3) The devil would be better at it

 

[big soft moose]

Ooo I love internet quotes

“We have reason to believe that man first walked upright to free his hands for masturbation.”
― Lily Tomlin

was that also why it was women who first discovered the banana

 

[Cobra]

The devil would be better at it

but as a scientist you would know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Agreed I refer you to my point #3 over ruling all other points

And this also makes interesting reading too (although its old news it's still relevant)

The new species of hominid, the evolutionary branch of primates that includes humans,
is to be revealed when the two-million-year-old skeleton of a child is unveiled this week.

Scientists believe the almost-complete fossilised skeleton belonged to a previously-unknown type of early human ancestor
that may have been a intermediate stage as ape-men evolved into the first species of advanced humans, Homo habilis.

Experts who have seen the skeleton say it shares characteristics withHomo habilis, whose emergence 2.5 million years ago is seen as a key stage in the evolution of our species.

The new discovery could help to rewrite the history of human evolution by filling in crucial gaps in the scientific knowledge.

Most fossilised hominid remains are little more than scattered fragments of bone, so the discovery of an almost-complete skeleton,
will allow scientists to answer key questions about what our early ancestors looked like and when they began walking upright on two legs.

 

[Llamaman]

There has been no change in over 100,000 years

Really? My understanding is that there are genetic-level differences between ethnicities, which would suggest that there was a degree of mild speciation occurring (at least before modern mass travel and people movement stirred up the pot).
For example, my local doctors surgery has a poster alerting that people of a certain ethnicity are much more prone to sickle cell disease.

 

[Llamaman]

Scientists believe the almost-complete fossilised skeleton belonged to a previously-unknown type of early human ancestor that may have been a intermediate stage as ape-men evolved into the first species of advanced humans, Homo habilis

Homo moderator?

 

[big soft moose]

Homo moderator?

The austrolepethecis (which coincidentally it is the aniversary of the discovery of today) was described as being short in stature , with curly hair and in all likelihood fearsome to deal with ..... that does put me in mind of a certain lady mod on this forum *playing with fire*

still so long as no one tags at @Yv i'll be fine

 

[Cobra]

Really? My understanding is that there are genetic-level differences between ethnicities, which would suggest that there was a degree of mild speciation occurring (at least before modern mass travel and people movement stirred up the pot).
For example, my local doctors surgery has a poster alerting that people of a certain ethnicity are much more prone to sickle cell disease.

Obviously, I agree with you, as we become more a melting pot ( to quote Blue mink)
there will be minor changes at cellular lever, the same way that European Ailments wiped out colonies of Native Americans,
and the same way that were are now seeing increases in TB and like when it was all but eradicated from our shores.

But I'm not convinced that this is actually true evolution, maybe (Man induced) natural selection.
But again, that's a fine line to draw and probably too close to call

Homo moderator?

 

[Keith W]

Here is some Science for you @Cobra and anyone else who may be interested


Laminin - Watch the video to the end and all will become clear

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Here is some Science for you @Cobra and anyone else who may be interested


Laminin - Watch the video to the end and all will become clear

This is almost as stupid as the "peanut butter disproves evolution" video.

The only science in that is that Laminin is a real protein.

 

[big soft moose]

remember that bloke in nigeria who used algebra to prove that homosexuality is wrong ... this is at the same level

 

[Cobra]

This is almost as stupid as the "peanut butter disproves evolution" video.

Peanut butter is real, therefore evolution must be

emember that bloke in nigeria who used algebra to prove that homosexuality is wrong

It could have been worse he could have been using Binary

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Here is some Science for you @Cobra and anyone else who may be interested


Laminin - Watch the video to the end and all will become clear

Are you serious? That's 8 minutes of my life I will never get back. Do you celebrate when someone sees the face of mother Theresa on a piece of burnt toast, or the face of Jesus in the clouds? I am staggered that this video is offered as proof that god is the designer. Don't forget, that is the same god that encourages you to kill me by the way.
Incidentally on this link you will see a representative of laminin where the cross is shown in a horizontal position. Does that represent the cross of Jesus when it was being erected or after the crucifixion?
And the electron micrographs of laminin on the link really look nothing like a man do they?
The preacher sourced images that matched his fairy story. You fell for it.