Shoreham Airshow - Hawker Hunter crash :(

Going to be a bit sombre in the office tomorrow - I work in Shoreham Police Station dealing with crash stats. I know most of the Forensic Crash Investigation team that work out of that station - their weekend will have been tough. I usually have to queue up at those traffic lights on the way home each evening - won't feel quite the same now I think.
 
It was awful. I thought that after we watched the Hurricane go down in 2007 with tragic consequences that we would never have too see something like that again - let alone the carnage yesterday. The names of the dead are starting to be released and I hope nobody I know is among them.
 
With my job I tend to remember where all the fatal collisions in Sussex have occurred as I used to have to go and visit the location (after it had been cleared). There was one some years ago on the A23 where 8 people died - I thought that would be the worst, though it looks as though this one will take over from that.
 
Bythesea said:
With my job I tend to remember where all the fatal collisions in Sussex have occurred as I used to have to go and visit the location (after it had been cleared). There was one some years ago on the A23 where 8 people died - I thought that would be the worst, though it looks as though this one will take over from that.
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I suspect it will Brian, just now they are saying that they expect the death toll to rise to at least 11.
 
While this is a tragic accident, lets hope that it is seen as that, and we don't get people calling for similar displays to be banned. It could be interesting at the next Duxford airshow, many (including me) go into the fields as this gives much better photo ops than the official view. Wonder if they will get tighter on this?
 
It would be very sad (and wrong) in my opinion for air shows to be banned - let's hope modern day health and safety doesn't get out of hand. However I also wonder if new guidelines might be involved as to the kind of manoeuvres undertaken. That would make the air shows less attractive I suspect to many attendees.
 
It might be a problem for airshow locations where the display flight path is right above roads or similarly populated areas.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
That's true, but you don't get passenger jets doing aerobatics
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True but it still doesn't stop a 747 falling from the sky and wiping out hundreds of people.

I wouldn't want to see airshows stopped because of the odd crash. People die on the roads every day and nobody calls for cars to be banned.

The problem we have in this country is that every time something happens there is always a band of not so merry people calling for it to be banned.
 
My point about nearby roads was based on previous incidents where airshows weren't banned. But restrictions were tightened, limiting the air display areas.
 
ianp5a said:
My point about nearby roads was based on previous incidents where airshows weren't banned. But restrictions were tightened, limiting the air display areas.
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For Shoreham at least, the displays already take place over the least populated area, and I suspect it is as limited as it can be - I believe that is the general prevailing situation (in this country at least). I think where overseas airshows are concerned things have needed to be tightened up in some localities. Hence my earlier comment about the kinds of manoeuvres potentially being up for restriction, but I hope I'm wrong about that.
 
Yeah it would be difficult to tighten up the Shoreham area much more unless it was moved to the beach like in Eastbourne but then the static display area would be separated by a fair distance so it wouldn't really be the same.

One of my shots near the end showing the scene after about an hour got added to the Explore gallery on Flickr this afternoon :/
 
Not surprisingly, new restrictions, are to be placed on airshows -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383

Will be going to Portrush airshow, in a couple of weeks, but most of the flying is not over land so hopefully they'll be permitted to perform the whole show.
 
johnnypanic said:
Not surprisingly, new restrictions, are to be placed on airshows -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383

Will be going to Portrush airshow, in a couple of weeks, but most of the flying is not over land so hopefully they'll be permitted to perform the whole show.
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Yep, just saw that. It's ridiculous in my opinion - typical of the scaremongering which is now rife in the UK. A plane hitting a road or residential area is unbelievably rare!

For Shoreham air show regulations like this could be a disaster.

I heard some absolute numpties earlier saying things like 'I don't see the point of air shows, they should be banned'. Well, right ..... let's not bother raising any money for the charitable causes which have been so instrumental in caring for our servicemen who fought for our freedom. I suspect that new regulations may affect visitor numbers and hence the vital revenue which most of these shows raise. For Shoreham at least, I don't see how it could be viable at all for the show to take place over the sea, given how they rely on ticket sales and other monies raised on site during the event - plus there would be the loss of the all-important static displays as well.
 
Lindsay D said:
Yep, just saw that. It's ridiculous in my opinion - typical of the scaremongering which is now rife in the UK. A plane hitting a road or residential area is unbelievably rare!
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People die in coach crashes while on holiday, ferries sink, planes full of people crash, and fatalities occur as a result of lots of other "do they really need to do that" type things.

Investigate the crash, ground all the Hunters in the meantime, but a measured dose of common sense please from the CAA and any other regulatory bodies that get involved.

David
 
Such a great shame and tragedy what happened, as it looked like up to that point it was a great day, and for once the weather played ball.
 
Willid1 said:
People die in coach crashes while on holiday, ferries sink, planes full of people crash, and fatalities occur as a result of lots of other "do they really need to do that" type things.

Investigate the crash, ground all the Hunters in the meantime, but a measured dose of common sense please from the CAA and any other regulatory bodies that get involved.

David
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Well it looks like that the CAA have got involved. They have grounded all Hunters and imposed a ban of any aerobatics allowing a 'fly-past' only for vintage aircraft. Presumably the Red Arrows and other modern aircraft will not be affected. Who knows what the future hold for air shows in this country now. What will be next Motorsport and F1 racing ?
 
I'm just having a look at previous airshow disasters around the world, I'm curious as to how many of the planes involved would be classified as 'vintage'. It seems quite a few of them are modern acrobatic planes. Also interesting to see how many were down to pilot error vs mechanical failure. Edit: also interesting to note that some of the vintage aircraft are in fact modern replicas. In other cases unplanned sequences/manoeuvres were taking place.
 
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Lindsay D said:
Yep, just saw that. It's ridiculous in my opinion - typical of the scaremongering which is now rife in the UK. A plane hitting a road or residential area is unbelievably rare!

For Shoreham air show regulations like this could be a disaster.

I heard some absolute numpties earlier saying things like 'I don't see the point of air shows, they should be banned'. Well, right ..... let's not bother raising any money for the charitable causes which have been so instrumental in caring for our servicemen who fought for our freedom. I suspect that new regulations may affect visitor numbers and hence the vital revenue which most of these shows raise. For Shoreham at least, I don't see how it could be viable at all for the show to take place over the sea, given how they rely on ticket sales and other monies raised on site during the event - plus there would be the loss of the all-important static displays as well.
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How pathetic. I was worried the caa would overreact after hearing some idiot question airshows on bbc radio and it seems they have. Now, if the new Dreamliner crashes by all means ground them as there could be a fault but The hunter is a 50 year old plane and has served all over the world with very few incidents (I guess). What is the point in grounding, most will have been rebuilt anyway. Do they really expect to uncover a serious fault that has not been uncovered already?

What is a vintage jet anyway? Would a loop really be high energy aerobatics seeing as my dad used to do them in a tiger moth? Sure I know a jet is faster but it's a fairly basic manoeuvre.
 
Last week i stood in a field at Biggin Hill while Spitfires were dog fighting above my head. Those planes are a lot older but i'm guessing now that even these will be stopped from doing what they do best. I felt privileged to be able to stand and watch them fly.

It makes me wonder how long it will be before we are all forced to live inside a virtual world just in case somebody gets a paper cut on their finger from an air show programme.
 
There were a lot of birds, around so I suppose there is a possiblity of a bird strike? It has been said that there was a loss of power, but we will just have to wait until the investigations are complete.

I assume that the Vulcan falls into the "vintage jet" catagory?
 
Would have been at that spot around that time had we not had a change of plans.

11 confirmed, up to 20 possibly.

Grim.
 
Agreed Simon. I'm reading some unbelievable stuff on some of the aviation discussion boards - saying the tragedy is a representation of 'criminal negligence' on the part of those involved and demanding these shows only take place over open water. Their main argument is that the people on the road when not taking an informed risk, as visitors might be to an airshow. Well, given how miniscule the risk is I would say that argument is moot. Aircraft fly above most of us many times a day - they are not conducting aerobatics (well they are actually, if you live in my village) but quite a few of them do crash, more than people realise. But we accept the 'risk' of being hit by a falling plane because these aircraft serving commercial purposes. Except many of them are not - they are often flown privately and for hobbyist enjoyment and often with pilots who are new to the game. A lot of these complainers fail to realise that an airshow is not just about spectator entertainment but about vital fundraising.

Any bets on who is going to get sued?

If anything, I think there needs to be an assessment of how often flight plans deviate from those submitted, and why, and what measures and sanctions could be imposed to deter that. I am not by any means suggesting that is the case with Saturday's disaster, but it is certainly relevant in some of the accidents which have happened.

And while we're at it, let's ban or curtail football matches, cricket, and anything else where innocent passers-by may, no matter how ridiculously low risk, be impacted. Although having said that when I was younger on several occasions I saw people being beaten up in the street by football fans leaving a match and I was also threatened on those occasions - I'm not sure how many deaths have resulted from such behaviour over the years. Perhaps I should have known in advance that football fans would have been on those trains - that is yet another grey area.

I understand that we have some of the best if not the best safety rules regarding aerial displays in the world. Our news channels however are certainly whipping up a frenzy of public opinion with the constant moment by moment reporting.
 
Having attended Shoreham Airshow for the last 10 years and was also present when the Hurricane crashed, we hear the same blurb written on the back of you Motorsport ticket that your hear at all airshows. It was one of the first things the commentator mentioned before the start of the airshow on saturday, that we are viewing this at our own risk and something tragic may happen, unfortunately, Saturday it did and I watch as the surreal event unfolded and felt totally numb and disbelief after the event. As for making speculations on what happened, why it happened, please leave it up to the professionals. Lucky there are very few of these incidents at airshows in the uk, but you can't cater for every inevitability. The aviation journalist yesterday on BBC live lost all credibility with me due to the fact he couldn't remember that it was a Pitts special and the reason why the pilot had to do a touch and go was because of a cross wind and difficulty of landing this type of aircraft. The most important thing should be that Our thoughts should be with the pilot still fighting for his life and the people who's lives were cut short yesterday.

As for the announcement today, Unfortunately it was inevitable that something like this would happen with regards to the CAA, personally, some of this I agree with, grounding the Hawk Hunter jets until the outcome of the investigation, but disagree with their other recommendations. The British Airshow Display Association in the UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety. Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago. This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.

Hopefully common sense will prevail once the investigation into this tragic accident has come to a conclusion on the reasons why the crash happened.
 
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I've been in Poland all weekend, and although I knew this had happened I didn't realise quite how bad the media backlash was/is. Such utter tripe being spouted about all aspects of air displays, and downright disrespectful to display pilots who are the most professional, understated people you could ever wish to meet. It is wrong at this time to assume and guess at the cause of the crash, and the 'experts' appearing on the news spouting all kinds of conjecture on the matter should be ashamed of themselves. The only person who knows exactly what happened is currently in hospital, and I wish him all the best with his recovery.

While it seems knee jerk to limit displays by classic jets, I think that is probably the best possible outcome at this point in time considering the pressure from the media. If the CAA did nothing, it would send the wrong message to the assembled 'ban the airshows mob' with their pitchforks and torches (I wonder how many exactly have ever actually been to an airshow..).

Personally i think it is bad taste to post those pictures here. Nobody needs to see over a dozen people dying.

I'd just like to end my post by saying my thoughts are with everyone affected by the weekends tragic events.

Harry.
 
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Hazza said:
Personally i think it is bad taste to post those pictures here. Nobody needs to see over a dozen people dying.

.
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I do not believe for a moment that the OP was acting in bad taste by posting his pictures. This event is of such (media) significance that every newspaper and television channel is covered in photographs and videos - you cannot avoid seeing them, there is nothing graphic in their contents (you cannot see people dying, only wreckage and smoke) and they are nothing other than a wide record of a tragic event. To suggest otherwise makes no sense. Those photographs might also be vital in offering clues as to what happened, which just goes to show how helpful it is for the authorities when members of the public happen to have a camera in their hand.
 
Lindsay D said:
I do not believe for a moment that the OP was acting in bad taste by posting his pictures. This event is of such (media) significance that every newspaper and television channel is covered in photographs and videos - you cannot avoid seeing them, there is nothing graphic in their contents (you cannot see people dying, only wreckage and smoke) and they are nothing other than a wide record of a tragic event. To suggest otherwise makes no sense. Those photographs might also be vital in offering clues as to what happened, which just goes to show how helpful it is for the authorities when members of the public happen to have a camera in their hand.
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Yes because the CAA regularly check Talk Photography of course. I'm not saying they're not of use to the authorities - Just no need for them to be posted here for people to gawp at.

My opinion, of course, and I'm not going to get drawn into a further argument.
 
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