'Stealing a living', apparently.

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John
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#1
A bit of background, I have a regular job Monday to Friday but also earn money from photography at weekends and when I have holidays etc.
I was photographing an event last week for a newspaper on a freelance basis, and another snapper came up to me and said 'Stealing this job from me too?' as I've worked shifts on the same newspaper as him in the past too.
The implications were that I was stealing work from him as his only job is photography and I'm not entitled to do it as I already have a steady job.
What are peoples thoughts on this?
 
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Robert
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#2
A bit of background, I have a regular job Monday to Friday but also earn money from photography at weekends and when I have holidays etc.
I was photographing an event last week for a newspaper on a freelance basis, and another snapper came up to me and said 'Stealing this job from me too?' as I've worked shifts on the same newspaper as him in the past too.
The implications were that I was stealing work from him as his only job is photography and I'm not entitled to do it as I already have a steady job.
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Are they using you because you're cheaper?
Or because you're a better photographer?
 

nandbytes

I owe Cobra some bacon
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#3
Are they using you because you're cheaper?
Or because you're a better photographer?
Does it matter as long they are happy that they are getting what they pay for?

For example lot of times in companies I have worked at we prefer to hire juniors/grads and then train them up to senior roles because that works out cheaper but we know the output won't be like a senior person from day 1.
 
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Tommy
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#5
A bit of background, I have a regular job Monday to Friday but also earn money from photography at weekends and when I have holidays etc.
I was photographing an event last week for a newspaper on a freelance basis, and another snapper came up to me and said 'Stealing this job from me too?' as I've worked shifts on the same newspaper as him in the past too.
The implications were that I was stealing work from him as his only job is photography and I'm not entitled to do it as I already have a steady job.
What are peoples thoughts on this?
I think your probably reading a bit to much into his comment, he was likely just joking.

Everybody is a victim these days.
 

West Camera

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frank west
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#8
When someone says something like that to me I try to see it from his standpoint. Which is a 'failing' of mine. It is a 'failing' because my opposite does not feel at all like that towards me, obviously. So, I guess the best response would be to agree with him. And, then keep snapping away. (No matter what you do he will never respect you. He certainly wasn't in that moment.)
 
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Craig
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#9
It’s just healthy competition. He has all day every day to perfect his craft. Your time is more limited. If he feels threatened then he needs to up his game...put up or shut up. If it wasn’t you, it’d be someone else he’d be bleating about.
 
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#10
A bit of background, I have a regular job Monday to Friday but also earn money from photography at weekends and when I have holidays etc.
I was photographing an event last week for a newspaper on a freelance basis, and another snapper came up to me and said 'Stealing this job from me too?' as I've worked shifts on the same newspaper as him in the past too.
The implications were that I was stealing work from him as his only job is photography and I'm not entitled to do it as I already have a steady job.
What are peoples thoughts on this?
Are you doing it for £25 a day and engaging in a race to the bottom at the same time as putting a photographer on the dole?

Or are you charging £100 for half a days work because professional photographers are paid too much money by the newspapers.

Therein lies the answer to your question.
 
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Keith
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#11
I think your probably reading a bit to much into his comment, he was likely just joking.

Everybody is a victim these days.
I'd say the OP can judge this much better than you, they obviously felt it enough to make a thread about it. I imagine there's many a wannabe pro expert out there who slyly 'jests' at other photographers

Everyone is an expert these days too - especially wedding photographers, as if it's the end game ...
 
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Bazza
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#12
His comment has upset you a bit seeing you posted about it. First of all ignore it, he is either jealous you have better gear or take better photos. If he has a problem then let him sort it out, just go on doing what you are doing . Would be different if he had exclusive rights to photograph at "closed" event arranged by a specific client,such as a promotional shoot for a magazine.

I have heard something similar at dog shows with the "official" photographer has complained to the event management about someone taking photos with a "pro" camera, but totally ignored anyone with a small compact or camera phone.
 
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Tommy
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#13
I'd say the OP can judge this much better than you, they obviously felt it enough to make a thread about it. I imagine there's many a wannabe pro expert out there who slyly 'jests' at other photographers

Everyone is an expert these days too - especially wedding photographers, as if it's the end game ...
Keith, I am sorry your foray into professional photography didn’t work out for you...

It must be difficult carrying around that massive chip on your shoulder though.
 
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Clint
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#15
As the profits of newspapers disappeared so did the jobs of photographers. The advent of digital has also increased the number of photographers. Are you “stealing” his work, only the person who hired you knows.
 
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OP
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Name
John
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#16
Are you doing it for £25 a day and engaging in a race to the bottom at the same time as putting a photographer on the dole?

Or are you charging £100 for half a days work because professional photographers are paid too much money by the newspapers.

Therein lies the answer to your question.
No, I do it for the going rate the newspaper pays, the same amount he gets
 
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matt
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#17
No, I do it for the going rate the newspaper pays, the same amount he gets
Then maybe they hire you because you're better, easier to get on with,more reliable or any other reason, any which way it doesn't matter. If he was at the event too and taking photos how have you stolen his job, he's there too and getting paid, presumably by another paper?
Possibly at another event you'll be there or he will, so who will be stealing who's job then.
Actually I applaud you for getting off your backside for doing 2 jobs.
 
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Terry
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#18
There are far more part time than full time professionals, in this dog eat dog world.
It is difficult for anyone to make a living out of photography alone to day.
However if you see a professional as one who always comes back with the goods, then some are far more employable than others.

A properly trained professional who has been through the mill should be able to hold his own. If he can not, it is perhaps time to look at something else to do.
 
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Keith
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#19
Keith, I am sorry your foray into professional photography didn’t work out for you...

It must be difficult carrying around that massive chip on your shoulder though.
Nope, I just think you're an irritating mouth piece, always having a pop at people as if you're the know all about pro photography. I've never seen any evidence of it that's for sure. I did see a pic of you looking like a tourist with some toy cameras hanging off you that's about it.

I never tried to be a pro, lol, just shows how uninformed you really are. I work in a completely unrelated to photography area, always have. Photography has never been anything but a hobby. I pity you thinking you need to put on this big bully pro cap at all times, getting obnoxious and easily wound up about the make or model of gear or someone else doing some paid work. If I didn't know you were a grumpy old git id swear you were a teen who just jumped on the Sony bandwagon. Considering what you charge for weddings I'd say you're probably in debt for all the gear you buy just for show. Bye now time waster, maybe get a new line instead of accusing everyone else of having the chip. Didn't you just that one in another thread a couple days back? You were wrong there too. Actually the first time I'll use ignore because you're so painfully irritating
 
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David
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#21
I think a bit of healthy competition drives the market forward, if you are taking better pictures then he will have to up his game. As Ayn Rand once wrote "If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn."
 
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#23
There is a bottom line here and that is: the paper will buy the pictures it thinks will sell copies or keep up the online click rate. If they're buying John's pictures then they think that's what they're getting from him.

This is not a new problem and good will usually sorts it out. In the 1970s I was working for a newspaper on the advertising side and selling them editorial pictures as well (a nice little earner). One of the staff photographers got so worked up about this he went to his union and demanded they took action. The Father of the Chapel tackled me in the pub one lunchtime. "He's a bloody idiot and he's not too long for this job. Meanwhile: could you lay off the submissions for a few weeks? Here's a couple of numbers. They've said they'll be pleased if you want to do a few weekends for them".The FoC was happy. I was happy, It turned out the editors at the other papers were happy. My weekend earnings expanded and sure enough my critic left a couple of months later.

Life is simple if you choose to make it so. :LOL:
 
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Tommy
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#24
Nope, I just think you're an irritating mouth piece, always having a pop at people as if you're the know all about pro photography. I've never seen any evidence of it that's for sure. I did see a pic of you looking like a tourist with some toy cameras hanging off you that's about it.

I never tried to be a pro, lol, just shows how uninformed you really are. I work in a completely unrelated to photography area, always have. Photography has never been anything but a hobby. I pity you thinking you need to put on this big bully pro cap at all times, getting obnoxious and easily wound up about the make or model of gear or someone else doing some paid work. If I didn't know you were a grumpy old git id swear you were a teen who just jumped on the Sony bandwagon. Considering what you charge for weddings I'd say you're probably in debt for all the gear you buy just for show. Bye now time waster, maybe get a new line instead of accusing everyone else of having the chip. Didn't you just that one in another thread a couple days back? You were wrong there too. Actually the first time I'll use ignore because you're so painfully irritating
Hardly any of that is true though is it? Glad you have put me on ignore maybe you will stop following me around the forum now. Do wonder why you are lying about your failed business though. I genuinely had some sympathy for you.
 
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Keith
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#25
I meant f2.8 and you.
No back story, he has a bit of a complex is all. He tries it on with many, telling them they're the ones with the chip on their shoulder when clearly it is him who carries it. He pulled the same lines in another thread on someone else other day. He's harmless, wouldn't worry about it, just irritating
 
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Jamesev
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#27
There’s two sides to the thoughts on this and these are my thoughts only

First the con side, if you’re subsidising photography via another job and the costs you put to client / customer etc are not the true cost of doing business then there is the view that you’re devaluing the industry.

Now the pro side. If you’re committed to a full time day job then surely a full time professional should be using that time to develop and grow their business either from a marketing perspective or new areas of photography or seeking new customers etc that someone with a full time job cannot commit that time - unless of course you’re doing 40 or so hours in the day job and another 40 or so in the photography side line. In which case how long can you sustain 80 hr working weeks.

Happy to take views on this train of thought as long as they are constructive.
 
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Mark
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#29
Does it matter as long they are happy that they are getting what they pay for?
Yes, it does, because it represents unfair competition; ie someone with another full time job could use that to subsidise lower rates.

No, I do it for the going rate the newspaper pays, the same amount he gets
In which case it's perfectly fair and he needs to build his relationship with the desk better.
 
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Keith
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#30
Have a quick laugh, forget and move on. It's not even worth thinking about.
I agree, if it was me, rightly or wrongly I'd tell him to go get stuffed - I say this imagining it's some bitter ex-colleague who's sore to see me getting more attention than him [going on the loose info OP offered] or I'd just laugh in his face and say 'get gud' - sounds like he's trolling so troll back and move on.
 

nandbytes

I owe Cobra some bacon
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#31
Yes, it does, because it represents unfair competition; ie someone with another full time job could use that to subsidise lower rates.
its not uncommon for people to do more than one job in this country. Nothing stopping from the other person also getting another job and working equally hard. It's not like OP is getting free money from his other job. He is working hard keeping two jobs.

of course this is moot point in this case as the pay is same.
 
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Brian
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#32
Don't worry. It's called life. I was in communications for many years, they paid me a fortune, because I was bloody good. If they could have found somebody better or cheaper I would have been toast. Market forces.
My old pal had a stock phrase for people like the moaning pro.
"Life's a bitch, then you die"
 
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Keith
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#33
Don't worry. It's called life. I was in communications for many years, they paid me a fortune, because I was bloody good. If they could have found somebody better or cheaper I would have been toast. Market forces.
My old pal had a stock phrase for people like the moaning pro.
"Life's a bitch, then you die"
I've worked in engineering, chemicals labs, construction, teaching , healthcare, social care and art and there will be an asshole in every division without fail. The key is, not to be that asshole.
 
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#35
The key is, not to be that asshole.
I discovered the wonderful world of contracting early on. It has one great advantage: if you turn out to be the asshole you've moved on before they get fed up with you...

:naughty:
 
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#36
I think he'll have to get used to it, the value placed on photographers is rapidly diminishing.. how many local rags have got rid of their photography teams and now welcome "submissions" from the public, or have their own flickr groups where they can pad out pages of their rag for free and even sell books full of the work of others (Hello Daily and Bournemouth Echo) ... I remember seeing a job advert (just over 2 years ago) for a Premiere League club, looking for a full time staff photographer.. I think the wage was £24k and you were expected to always be available and to spend you weekend travelling the country and had to use your own camera gear (none provided)... I can see that for someone starting out it might be attractive, but seeing the kit list you'd need to actually do the job properly you'd be looking at an initial investment in the 5 figure range...
 
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Paul
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#37
If you are earning decent rates, then that is just business. Every business has to deal with this.

Maybe you are winning work because you are better or can turn around images faster. If that's the case then you need to be on good rates or better for offering a premium service. Again just business.

Undercutting a little again is business, but would ultimately be unsustainable in the long run.

However if you are working for peanuts then you are a fool to yourself, and totally destroying things for yourself as well. Eventually you'll lose everything as well when someone else even cheaper comes along.
 
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