still struggling with flash, just don't get it - do I dump the 3rd party flash or is it me?

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A_S

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Andrew
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problem, whatever mode, constant under exposure and badly balanced images on ETTL. I have to really dial up the exposure compensation to get well lit images...

I'll post my settings from my phone picture library in a minute but what the camera is taking bares no resemblence to

A.) what i see with my eyes
B.) what i see on the rear screen
C.) what i get when i take an image without the flash

These were all put through lightroom defaults - which to get them expososed as such pushes the exposure up +1.5 EV. The last one was taken at ISO1000 1/250s F2.8... in a well lit room as can be observed from the phone photos...


Just looking for a bit of help really, not looking for any critique.

No Flash, shutter too low, ISO too high: 1/80 ISO2500 F2.8
5G4A5268.jpg



With flash ETTL AV 1/250, F2.8 ISO1000 EV adjusted +0.35
5G4A5348.jpg
 

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I just do not get it at all - I should not have to be at ISO1000 when the place is lit up like a christmas tree and still under expose
 
A_S said:
problem, whatever mode, constant under exposure and badly balanced images on ETTL. I have to really dial up the exposure compensation to get well lit images...

I'll post my settings from my phone picture library in a minute but what the camera is taking bares no resemblence to

A.) what i see with my eyes
B.) what i see on the rear screen
C.) what i get when i take an image without the flash

These were all put through lightroom defaults - which to get them expososed as such pushes the exposure up +1.5 EV. The last one was taken at ISO1000 1/250s F2.8... in a well lit room as can be observed from the phone photos...


Just looking for a bit of help really, not looking for any critique.

No Flash, shutter too low, ISO too high: 1/80 ISO2500 F2.8




With flash ETTL AV 1/250, F2.8 ISO1000 EV adjusted +0.35
Click to expand...

A_S said:
I just do not get it at all - I should not have to be at ISO1000 when the place is lit up like a christmas tree and still under expose
Click to expand...

A couple of thoughts come to mind.....

The single small light of the flash can not replicate the look of your house lit but all your usual lights. The flash is always going to be a harsh point source of light. You can bounce it to reduce the harshness, but it's still not the same.

ISO 2500 is not a high ISO for any modern camera - what's the problem? Too slow shutter speed to freeze the action?

Remember that the flash duration is very short, actually much less that 1/80 of that first image.

I would try keeping those settings ISO 2500, 1/80th to have the background looking like it should then add some fill flash on top to freeze the cat moving in the foreground.

As the color of the lights in the background looks very warm, you may need to add a color gel to your flash to match.
 
Thanks Tim its more the massive under exposure than the ambient light and settings. Here is a better example. I took exactly the same photo with exactly the same settings. The only difference being that on the first I set the flash to ETTL:

Settings were 1/250, F2.8 ISO 200. Flash bounced of celing with diffuser

I can't seem to find a way to edit a RAW without either lightroom or photoshop pushing the exposure forward. Even this was corrected +1.64 EV in photoshop camera raw (!!)5G4A5353.jpg

now contrast that with my manual flash - set at 1/64th power -> exposure only auto compensated by +0.05ev:
5G4A5354.jpg

The only 2 logical conclusions I can make are:

A.) I am doing something massivly wrong, but I don't know what

B.) The flash ETTL meter is not working

Question: Do i Dump the 3rd party flash and get a canon for on camera and only use these for remote work where they would be manual anyway...
 
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It looks to me that you base exposure excluding flash is too dark. It’s late I’ll take a look on the computer tomorrow
 
ETTL is not working correctly; I have just sent a Godox V860iii back to Lencarta with the same problem; cheap Chinese crap! Everyone loves them when they work but 1 in 10 don't and they are usually fit for the bin with money wasted.
 
1, When you bounce you need to add a bit of extra exposure compensation. Maybe +1 EV. That would be on the 5D models. Now. I don't do underexposed shots particularly with that.

2. Your ISO could and should happily be much lower provided you have the full size flash. 400 should be absolutely plenty, and not just at 2.8, provided your ceiling doesn't have partitions blocking the path of light

3. My R6 seems to want more +EV with my godox lights in ETTL (I mean the R6 is different, nothing strange about godox). Some +2/3 to +1EV more. So with my flashes in the frame I need +2-3EV which looks like a lot. Metering is quite different to 5D, and these also behave differently in Live view mode, again another wild swing.
As long as it is consistent and predictable you are fine.

4. connection may be bad. Either dodgy flash or camera hotshoe. Trust me both can happen.

5. Some cheap crappy flashes never actually reach headline power numbers at 1/1. If you have nothing to compare it with, you wouldn't know. Anyway that's stuff from a decade ago...
 
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In fact looking at your images I strongly suggest you carefully read the manual in full.

You seem to be in radio master mode, and who knows what else is going on and if your flash is set only as controller. RTFM and be done with it.
 
Try the flash in ETTL, camera iso to 200 and the camera in program mode and see what you get?
I'm guessing your using Canon? They have shutter defaults in AV mode in my experience. This either sets the shutter to a fixed 250th or other options from slow up ot 60-250. For some reason I find the 60-250 works best.
 
A highly recommend The Speedlighers handbook by Syl Arena if you want to truly master Canon Flash.

They seem to be stupid money on Amazon at the moment and not readily available so perhaps the book is no longer in print so perhaps you could find a used one somewhere.

There are two editions. The first will do you just fine. I think the second edition added some extra info on the radio side of things.

The fist edition.

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ISBN: 9780134007915 - 2nd Edition - Paperback - Peachpit Press - 2015 - Condition: Good - No Jacket - Pages can have notes/highlighting. Spine may show signs of wear. ~ ThriftBooks: Read More, Spend Less 2.4 - Speedliter's Handbook: Learning to Craft Light with Canon Speedlites
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I can see 'ALL' on the screen of the flash . . . is this a setting that might affect the main flash output irrespective of the other flash settings?
 
Thanks all

I'll try again tonight

just for the record I have 2 of these flashes and tried both and came out with the same result.

I'll turn radio off - but I honestly don't think that should make a difference.

I've also tried in P mode and FV mode and came across the same problem.

i think the fact i can get a well exposed image on a very low power setting in manual is very strage that the ETTL is underexposing so much.

I might even stick my ex420 (mk1) on there and see what happens later
 
How far are you zoomed in? I wonder if you're zooming far in to where the flash light isn't reaching. Especially through the door frame.
 
zoom is just on auto, on the cat photos the flash was bounced of a flat (well loft hatch but pretty flat) white ceeling. Zoom the same as on the manual as well
 
In retrospect, something is deeply screwed up here. The camera should not allow you to exceed flash sync speed in any of the semi-auto modes.

There's no way that the camera should allow f/2.8 1/250th if it recognises the flash unit.
 
Thats a good shout - this is what it sets it at so i presumed it was the sync speed... both in P and AV.

More tests tonight. Again in AV -> This was what it spat out - seems to want to control the ISO in AV as well and sets it to auto, always over-rides my setting and pushes it up to circa 6400.... Just doesn't seem right. again manual flash exposing perfectly fine with a little over exposure at 1/64 or 1/32 depending on my F number.... But ETTL just under exposes. This image was "pushed" +1.5 EV and even then its still a bit dark and lacking contrast - nothing more done to it than my standard import profile.

Look how average the shadows are as a result - > again this just doesn't feel right. Room was well lit flash bounced of celing, 24-70 about 1/3 crop if that so its not like the cat was anymore than 20CM from the front of my lens.

5G4A5428.jpg

Screenshot 2024-04-16 234410.jpg
 
above posts have disapeared it seems but to confirm, sync speed on first curtain is 1/250 as the flash doesn't work in electronic

1713308235176.png
 
Ok I'm courious, in manual at 1/64th ityou get that result, what result do you get at 1/4 and 1/2 power, is it actually brighter? Im wondering if theres a compatability issue.
I doubt 2 flashes are both faulty (yes it's possible but not common) How old are the flashes? Is there a firmware update available for them?

Are there any experienced menbers near Andew who could meet up and have a shufty at whats going on?
 
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A_S said:
A.) what i see with my eyes
B.) what i see on the rear screen
C.) what i get when i take an image without the flash
Click to expand...
I’m struggling to find the words to help.

On your previous thread you were given literally thousands of words of advice. And you’ve ignored all of it and repeated a pattern of behaviour that didn’t get results first time.

A) if you’re shooting w flash you won’t get ‘what you see with your eyes’ because your eyes are seeing a subject lit by a completely different light source.
Likewise B and C.

If you can’t be bothered to back and read all the great advice you were given last time; try this:
MANUAL MODE
ISO 400
F5.6
1/100sec Mechanical Shutter

Switch off exp simulation so you can see your subject through the viewfinder.
Ensure the flash is in vanilla ETTL, no master or slave setting.
Check there’s no FEC set either on the camera or flash.
Ensure the flash is properly seated and locked in the hotshoe.
Avoid shiny objects in the background that’ll reflect a hotspot back at the camera.

If that doesn’t give you an accurate flash lit image, then there’s possibly a fault. But I wouldn’t make any assumptions without that as a test.

Would you please do that and post the result?

And if it works you can start changing one thing at a time till you get a fail (though you shouldn't really need to - this is literally my C1 on the R6, designed for flash shooting)
 
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A_S said:
above posts have disapeared it seems but to confirm, sync speed on first curtain is 1/250 as the flash doesn't work in electronic
Click to expand...

I tried to look at you shutter setting in one of the above shots. Get out of EFC and use M only for flash.

The R5 shutter clears incredibly slowly (1/60th) and that can cause significant issues.
 
DemiLion said:
I tried to look at you shutter setting in one of the above shots. Get out of EFC and use M only for flash.

The R5 shutter clears incredibly slowly (1/60th) and that can cause significant issues.
Click to expand...
@DemiLion please can you explain this more? What are the issues exactly?
 
Phil V said:
I’m struggling to find the words to help.

On your previous thread you were given literally thousands of words of advice. And you’ve ignored all of it and repeated a pattern of behaviour that didn’t get results first time.

A) if you’re shooting w flash you won’t get ‘what you see with your eyes’ because your eyes are seeing a subject lit by a completely different light source.
Likewise B and C.

If you can’t be bothered to back and read all the great advice you were given last time; try this:
MANUAL MODE
ISO 400
F5.6
1/100sec Mechanical Shutter

Switch off exp simulation so you can see your subject through the viewfinder.
Ensure the flash is in vanilla ETTL, no master or slave setting.
Check there’s no FEC set either on the camera or flash.
Ensure the flash is properly seated and locked in the hotshoe.
Avoid shiny objects in the background that’ll reflect a hotspot back at the camera.

If that doesn’t give you an accurate flash lit image, then there’s possibly a fault. But I wouldn’t make any assumptions without that as a test.

Would you please do that and post the result?

And if it works you can start changing one thing at a time till you get a fail (though you shouldn't really need to - this is literally my C1 on the R6, designed for flash shooting)
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,

I'll test again. Appreciate that its frustrating - but beleive me its not for the want of trying - or reading the other thread, I think thats a bit harsh - I am listening. What I gathered from the last post was to not shoot in TV because the camera does not understand what I am doing hence trying AV, so the camera controlled the shutter speed, I expected that the power output would be determined by the metering to shoot at a decent level of ISO..... I think thats a reasonably logical assumption don't you think? Especially if i can shoot flash at manual, 1/64 power, 1/250s, ISO 200 at F2.8 and get a nicely lit image, exactly what my eyes could see - why isn't the ETTL setting the power as such to do this with the same settings in AV, why is it pushing the ISO upto 5000 and still underexposing? I think thats a fair question.

I will go back and read the other thread - but these things take time and I don't have infinate amounts of time in the week to spend testing unfortunatly.

FYI on the points below

Switch off exp simulation so you can see your subject through the viewfinder. - good shout I will try
Ensure the flash is in vanilla ETTL, no master or slave setting. - tried yesterday still under exposes with wireless of or set as master
Check there’s no FEC set either on the camera or flash. - made sure this was the case before hand
Ensure the flash is properly seated and locked in the hotshoe. - good shout I will try
Avoid shiny objects in the background that’ll reflect a hotspot back at the camera. - see images of Cat in basket, I think this ticks that box?
 
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A_S said:
What I gathered from the last post was to not shoot in TV because the camera does not understand what I am doing hence trying A
Click to expand...
Manual
I gave a great amount of detail why the semi auto modes weren’t good for learning flash.
Because the camera can’t possibly know what mix of flash and ambient you want. So it’ll guess - and when it guesses wrong it’s frustrating.

If you shoot manual - you know exactly what the ambient exposure looks like. Whether pitch black where flash will be your only illumination or in full sun where the flash is to fill shadows.

I forgot another camera setting.
When I get a new camera I always set flash metering to average rather than eval. I’ve been doing it so long I don’t remember all the details, but I know I have a rock solid technique and I’m not messing with it.
 
Just a wild guess here but switch off the “safety shift”. It’s a custom function feature where the camera overrides your settings.
 
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You should set the shutter speed to just under flash sync maximum say 1/200 and let the camera set the aperture.
Set the iso to something reasonable say 200 or 400. Keep it simple.
Goddox flashes hold the large proportion of the market place, they are extremely reliable. The either work or they do not at all. They rarely give unexpected results..

Most of the time I use flash in all manual mode. But then I learned my photography when that was all their was
However provided you use flash in shutter priority, very little should go wrong.

The biggest mistake is to shoot automatic flash with a mirror or the like in the background. If you do it will result in gross under exposure.as the flash bounces back straight into the lens.
 
Phil V said:
Manual
I gave a great amount of detail why the semi auto modes weren’t good for learning flash.
Because the camera can’t possibly know what mix of flash and ambient you want. So it’ll guess - and when it guesses wrong it’s frustrating.

If you shoot manual - you know exactly what the ambient exposure looks like. Whether pitch black where flash will be your only illumination or in full sun where the flash is to fill shadows.

I forgot another camera setting.
When I get a new camera I always set flash metering to average rather than eval. I’ve been doing it so long I don’t remember all the details, but I know I have a rock solid technique and I’m not messing with it.
Click to expand...

Thanks - I'll have another go this weekend
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
You should set the shutter speed to just under flash sync maximum say 1/200 and let the camera set the aperture.
Set the iso to something reasonable say 200 or 400. Keep it simple.
Goddox flashes hold the large proportion of the market place, they are extremely reliable. The either work or they do not at all. They rarely give unexpected results..

Most of the time I use flash in all manual mode. But then I learned my photography when that was all their was
However provided you use flash in shutter priority, very little should go wrong.

The biggest mistake is to shoot automatic flash with a mirror or the like in the background. If you do it will result in gross under exposure.as the flash bounces back straight into the lens.
Click to expand...

Yes - I've found i can get what i want much better on manual as well, which is fine when you have the time to take a few tests and get a feel but sometimes that may not be possible as in the initial test shots I did, let me try a few more things this weekend
 
Another massive vote for the Syl Arena book. It's the best book I've ever read about flash. Well it was for me; it just seemed to work for the way I understand things. It really was a "flashbulb" moment for me ..... sorry!

I use Yongnuo or Godox flashes as well, and I've found them to be fine. Not to say yours is of course. I just use manual - it makes everything easy especially now we all have digital and can chimp our little hearts content and it seems to be already getting you what you want. You'll definitely get there with it so don't sweat it.
 
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