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The Formula 1 / IndyCar Thread
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Hmmmm?
Are F1 races both laps and/or time limited and that would preclude such a change (new rules not withstanding?)
simon ess
Just call me Roxanne.
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So change it.
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Granted, as I also postulated
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Prediction
Massi will stay as race director
Merc will drop the appeal (for the sake of F1)
The show will roll on
Here is how I see the rules for this instance
48.12 it was wrong to do what they did (not all lapped cars passed and the safety car was pulled in early)
48.13 It is the clark of the course that can pull the safety car in when he deems it safe
15.3 the clark of the course will work in perminant consultation with the race director
15.3 (e) the race director has overriding authority in the use of the safety car
Wrong to right just like that
Max is an exceptional driver, Lewis is an exceptional driver, the mercedes is an exceptional car, The red bull is an exceptional car
Next year only the cars will be different (thats if lewis dosnt say shove it and goes off to do some diverse thing) but I hope some weird rules are sharpened
Massi will stay as race director
Merc will drop the appeal (for the sake of F1)
The show will roll on
Here is how I see the rules for this instance
48.12 it was wrong to do what they did (not all lapped cars passed and the safety car was pulled in early)
48.13 It is the clark of the course that can pull the safety car in when he deems it safe
15.3 the clark of the course will work in perminant consultation with the race director
15.3 (e) the race director has overriding authority in the use of the safety car
Wrong to right just like that
Max is an exceptional driver, Lewis is an exceptional driver, the mercedes is an exceptional car, The red bull is an exceptional car
Next year only the cars will be different (thats if lewis dosnt say shove it and goes off to do some diverse thing) but I hope some weird rules are sharpened
And in Imola, should Hamilton have started a lap and a half behind Max which was the situation before the red flag, you cant have it both ways.
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Probably, but we were only discussing the last race here but if we examined every race there would be many other criticisms particularly about Max's aggressive and dangerous driving.
Dave
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I think the result was a shame for F1. Had this been any other race during the season, it would have finished under the SC.
LH was a very gracious loser, given how Max reacted the previous week on the podium (he walked off for those who didn't see it), I doubt he would have acted in the way Lewis did.
Regarding the first lap lunge by Max, Lewis had no where else to go. I think if he had given the place back, Lewis would have easily taken it back as Max's tyres dropped off.
If I was LH, I don't think I would have wanted to win the championship in court, so letting the result stand is probably for the best. Max is a very lucky champion, sadly it will be a championship won for him by the stewards,
LH was a very gracious loser, given how Max reacted the previous week on the podium (he walked off for those who didn't see it), I doubt he would have acted in the way Lewis did.
Regarding the first lap lunge by Max, Lewis had no where else to go. I think if he had given the place back, Lewis would have easily taken it back as Max's tyres dropped off.
If I was LH, I don't think I would have wanted to win the championship in court, so letting the result stand is probably for the best. Max is a very lucky champion, sadly it will be a championship won for him by the stewards,
You must be new to this!
In F1 like every other type of motor racing 4 wheels or 2, there are only 3 overtaking manoeuvre's that are possible. (4 if you count passing while the other is in the pits)
Straight line pass:
You exit the previous corner faster or use slipstream/DRS/more powerful engine and you drive past the person on the straight.
On the outside:
Going into a corner you with more grip/better tyres or in the rain drive around the outside of an oponent, works best in a S bene/chicane where you have the inside for the next corner.
On the inside:
You brake later, dive for the inside and get ahead, often drifting out to the edge of the track to block the person you are passing.
These 3 are the standard overtaking manoeuvre's, they have been used for years and are seen everywhere where vehicles are racing.
The inside block pass has been used since the begining, because it gives the person you have passed 3 options.
1. Drive into you.
2. Lift the throttle.
3. Run off the track.
People like Schumacher, Senna, Mansell, Jones and many others were masters of this manoeuvre.
Sadly now with the outside of every corner having more space than the average car park option 3 is mostly used and even sadder its followed by a radio message claiming "he forced me off the track"!
From what I'm seeing online these days are the new F1 fans, the Hamilton bandwagon or Netflick veiwers who for the last 6 or 7 years have not seen much overtaking and because someone says Max is aggressive they just agree simply because they have never seen anything like it, there has been very little on track action in the last few years.
Watch the last few laps of the 1979 French GP, count how many 5 second penalties would have been given for that. Watch Senna forcing people out of the way, many drivers from his day often said when they saw that yellow helmet in their mirrors they knew he was either coming past or going through them. it was classed as racing, perhaps hard racing but racing none the less. In Moto GP Rossi did the same for many years now Marquez does it again the net is full of snowflakes saying its aggresive!!
Next season with the new cars that are meant to be able to drive closer we are hopefully going to see many more overtakes and with that probably an increase in radio messages claiming they had been forced off. If you dont want to be forced off the track then lift your throttle, your oponent has just passed you suck it up and try and get back at him later in the lap, like F1 used to be. Watch Moto 3, you'll see 30+ Max type overtakes every race and given a motorcycle is more likely to crash in an aggressive overtake that makes it far more dangerous than a F1 overtake, and no one complains they just get on with it.
And the most dangerous overtake of this season was Hamilton diving up the inside at Silverstone, far worse than anything Max might have done.
And i'm neither a Hamilton or Max fan, just a fan of F1 and watching good racing not a sad procession wherethey all just follow each other around for 90mins
French GP 1979, search youtube, the modern F1 fan would have a fit if that happened these days
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FIA to launch probe into the safety car finnish seperatly to mercs appeal (if they decide to do one, they have today Thursday to do it) Concern is it could tarnish F1
IT wont, I dont think , alter the finishing order as they are looking to learn lessons for 2022
IT wont, I dont think , alter the finishing order as they are looking to learn lessons for 2022
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I do not think so. I was watching F1 when Graham Hill was racing and ever since. Years ago when they drove differently and safety was not so important, F1 drivers were regularly killed and injured. I did not think that this was better, We have seen some risky but fair overtakes by drivers like Mark Webber. I also hope that the new designs for 2022 do improve overtaking safely.
Dave
Dale.
Bo Derek
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Mercedes withdraw their appeal.
This is the right decision as if the result was changed in the courts, I'm not sure I'd be as enthusiastic about watching another F1 race as I have been since I was 8 years old. I'm a Lewis fan and I'm still dissappointed he lost, let alone in the way he did but it's time to move on.
I think the FIA will carry out an investigation though, I think that is inevitable, with a clarification of the safety car rules taking place. Will Masi be replaced? I'm not sure.
This will run on for a while yet but the time is coming now to move on to next year and the new cars will hopefully provide closer racing with more overtaking.
This is the right decision as if the result was changed in the courts, I'm not sure I'd be as enthusiastic about watching another F1 race as I have been since I was 8 years old. I'm a Lewis fan and I'm still dissappointed he lost, let alone in the way he did but it's time to move on.
I think the FIA will carry out an investigation though, I think that is inevitable, with a clarification of the safety car rules taking place. Will Masi be replaced? I'm not sure.
This will run on for a while yet but the time is coming now to move on to next year and the new cars will hopefully provide closer racing with more overtaking.
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I think the FIA will stop the race director altering the rules the way he did
They will probably send him on a training course
I suggest that you look at the crash again, because from the side view, you can clearly see that Lewis was slightly ahead of Max, who then turned in slightly, the offside rear of Max's car then contacted Lewis' nearside front.
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Niether Sir Lewis Hamilton or Toto Wolfe will not attend the FIA prize giving ceremony
The rift is deep
Will Sir Lewis return for the 8th title challenge ???
The rift is deep
Will Sir Lewis return for the 8th title challenge ???
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I think he still 'hungry enough' to make a further mark. The introduction of the 2022 cars (none too sure of all the changes?) should, it sounds like, reset the playing field, so will as always be a constructor competition but it will the driver(s) who make the difference!
With George Russell as his 'team partner' I see that as in Lewis' favour. As far as I have perceived Lewis "reads" the car on average better than Max when it comes to changes & upgrades......
2022 has the potential to be an interesting and for the spectator/TV watcher a better year than most of late.
Did I say I was an optimist
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Rather like primary school attitude.
If Mercedes appeal had been successful, the result surely could not have simply reversed as there was no guarantee that Lewis would have caught and passed, the back markers might have cleared a path for Max and MAY have caught Lewis and passed him regardless.
It’s done, move on and look ahead to next year.
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Sorry but what Max does is not like anything that has gone before. He goes into a corner far too hot or comes off the brakes much too soon in order to be ahead at a point in the corner where the "rules" say he has the corner but he has no possible chance of making the corner. Block passing has never been about that, it has always been about cars legitimately being side by side at the corner and the car on the inside deliberately pushing the other car wide. By doing what Max does he is forcing the other car to avoid an accident or receiving damage that could end thier race as he is out of control and there is no deliberate drift to the outside. Where your argument doesnt stack up is that he does the same on the outside and then if he gets pushed wide he technically had the corner and the car on the inside has to yield the place.
For the record ive been watching F1 since the early 80's and Im a big fan of Max and would of been happy for him to of won but not when he started driving that way this year.
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It would be better if no one could pit during a safety car. Equality should be the rule during a safety car. No one should get an advantage.
Computers are so refined these days they could be used to sustain the gaps between cars during the safety car. And the speed of the leading car. They could all be given the Go at the same time.
If someone was forced to pit during a safety car. They should restart from the back of the field.
And with the same sort of tire that they entered the pit with. This could mean that they need to pit again to change to a different tyre later on.
Computers are so refined these days they could be used to sustain the gaps between cars during the safety car. And the speed of the leading car. They could all be given the Go at the same time.
If someone was forced to pit during a safety car. They should restart from the back of the field.
And with the same sort of tire that they entered the pit with. This could mean that they need to pit again to change to a different tyre later on.
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yes always hated Safety cars, really unfair, as are red flags the time difference should be maintained.
bad form from Hamilton and Wolfe for not attending the prize giving Gala .
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Well it's all over now and the shouting will go on for a long time yet. But how anyone could claim a race win let alone win a World Title under such circumstances is staggering.
I thought such shenanigans had been left behind in the Schumacher/Ferrari era.
The only honourable thing to do would be to declare the race null and void now and award the win to be decided by a method that cannot be manipulated by any person or organisation associated with F1.
Just my neutral opinion of course.
I thought such shenanigans had been left behind in the Schumacher/Ferrari era.
The only honourable thing to do would be to declare the race null and void now and award the win to be decided by a method that cannot be manipulated by any person or organisation associated with F1.
Just my neutral opinion of course.
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Most race wins in a season, Max champion, happy ?Well it's all over now and the shouting will go on for a long time yet. But how anyone could claim a race win let alone win a World Title under such circumstances is staggering.
I thought such shenanigans had been left behind in the Schumacher/Ferrari era.
The only honourable thing to do would be to declare the race null and void now and award the win to be decided by a method that cannot be manipulated by any person or organisation associated with F1.
Just my neutral opinion of course.
simon ess
Just call me Roxanne.
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I just saw that Hamilton and Wolfe boycotted the awards ceremony.
Pathetic, childish w******s. IMO of course.
Edit to add...
And after all the "Max wouldn't have been so gracious in defeat" comments I've read in various places.
Pathetic, childish w******s. IMO of course.
Edit to add...
And after all the "Max wouldn't have been so gracious in defeat" comments I've read in various places.
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If this last race was cancelled then Yes,
even thought this year's series is badly tarnished by incompetent officials.
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Cant blame Sir Lewis if he jacks it in especially after Sulayem's comment at the ceremony " "At the end of the day, rules are rules" If he was thinking of retiring before the last race I am sure he is giving it serious thought now
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His contract is worth too much to jack in and walk away. And he'll have to pay some compensation too. I would like to think that he has had a discussion with the Mercedes team and said "Give me everything we have next year, and I'll be more than happy to support George the year after." That would give him an 8th title, that's what he wants, and I know that Mercedes have done a great deal of development on the new car, while Red Bull threw everything at this year.
It gets even more dodgy than you can ever imagine. Bernie Ecclestone's wife (Bernie made some very nasty comments about Lewis at the weekend) was involved in the presidential campaign of Sulayem and has now been confirmed as the new VP of FIA South America. Ecclestone is on very good terms with Mr Horner of Red Bull.
Ecclestone confirms wife in running for FIA role
Bernie Ecclestone has admitted he could slide back into an influential position in Formula 1.
www.grandprix.com
Ecclestone suggests Lewis Hamilton didn't deserve knighthood in scathing attack
Bernie Ecclestone suggested Sir Lewis Hamilton wasn't deserving of his knighthood after the seven-time F1 champion was honoured earlier this week, just days after heartbreak at the Abu Dhabi GP.
www.mirror.co.uk
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He may have a bob or two in loose change to pay that
plus there may well be a clause in the contract you never know
I hope he races and merc give him a ground effect car that blows the rest off but that would mean the rules would then be altered to make the "show" a spectacular
As for Bernie well I remember the lets spray water on the track for a few more crashes to liven things up
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Yup - think it’s likely that Lewis and Mercedes will be looking to stuff it right up Red Bull, Horner and the FIA next year. They’re not exactly known for not having a competitive streak
Once Lewis has broken the record for championships then he might let it go - and if Max goes on to get more championships then Lewis can always say that it was only because he wasn’t racing - it’ll be a few years before MV comes close to his tally by which time Lewis will be in his slippers (figuratively speaking of course!!)
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I used to like Bernie but have read the above link, I am horrified. I understand how the very dedicated Max fans may think that Max won according to the rules, but cannot see how Bernie could support that position. Unless the FIA make significant changes I may give up watching F1 as there is little point if races are decided on the whim of an individual official. Of course, if Lewis retires, Russell could give Max some real competition next season.
Dave
Dave
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It gets even more dodgy than you can ever imagine. Bernie Ecclestone's wife (Bernie made some very nasty comments about Lewis at the weekend) was involved in the presidential campaign of Sulayem and has now been confirmed as the new VP of FIA South America. Ecclestone is on very good terms with Mr Horner of Red Bull.
Ecclestone confirms wife in running for FIA role
Bernie Ecclestone has admitted he could slide back into an influential position in Formula 1.www.grandprix.com
Ecclestone suggests Lewis Hamilton didn't deserve knighthood in scathing attack
Bernie Ecclestone suggested Sir Lewis Hamilton wasn't deserving of his knighthood after the seven-time F1 champion was honoured earlier this week, just days after heartbreak at the Abu Dhabi GP.
Can't exactly think what I recall but during the Bernie 'period' & when it overlapped with Michael Schumacher...... wasn't the FIA given another "name" re: Ferrari Support Service.....because when MS & Ferrari created on track controversy the stewards 'were accused of bias in support of Ferrari/MS could do no wrong'.
PS in general I have been happier watching F1 since such 'bias' became less obvious........
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It was actually ferrari international aid FIA
Bernie did a lot for F1 then he went a bit cranky when the racing was getting a bit predictable, probably due to meddling here and there by obvious bias He even at one point said that he wouldnt pay to see any race it was that bad , It was about this time when the coup against him started
Even today many people think its all fixed like wrestling and abu dabi hasnt helped
The rules are very clear if a person with common sense takes control
If its in the rules its legal, if its not in the rules its legal until a rule is made to stop it, Its only illeagal if it goes against the rules
48-12 wording is clear ANY car can overtake the safety car and unlap themselves
IT dosnt say every car because you could if you so wished keep the safety car out there for ever by not passing them
It dosnt say selective cars can now unlap themselves as that would be open to obvious bias