The Formula 1 / IndyCar Thread

It's pretty bloody obvious that even Lance Stroll could win the DWC in a Mercedes (if he had Karun Chandok as team mate). Ergo, it's fact. Soz, but that's just how it is.


What on earth are you on about now? It's all Marc Gené's fault?


I wouldn't disagree. But I don't fall for all the Hamilton hype, and know that there are other drivers out there, who are just as good. Hamilton's enjoyed a massive slice of luck to be where is now. In F1, you need talent AND luck. Damon Hill and JV had luck to be in a team that Ayrton Senna had been part of, even if he hadn't been directly involved in the design of the cars they won in. Williams had had lots of success. They were a top team. DH and JV weren't the best drivers in F1 at that time, however. They just had the best cars. Ditto Jenson Button, and to a large extent, Kimi Raikkonen (Alonso wiped the floor with him during their time together at Ferrari; clearly a greater driver by some margin). Two WCs who have been outclassed by team-mates (Alonso has outclassed both!).


According to the person who designed the Williams car you are talking about Senna had nothing to do with it. Newey states the car was developed by Damon Hill & David Coulthard; drivers he rated very highly for car development, likewise the Red Bull that Vettel was so dominant in was initially developed by Newey & Coulthard. There is a bit of a trend here - the Mclaren that was dominant was also developed by Newey & Coulthard (Newey actually states Mika Hakinen's feedback could be confusing at times.)

Notice how often Newey & Coulthard were in the same team? No luck involved in that TBH.

....................I think Adrian Newey may know a little bit more than what you observations are showing?

(P.S. He rated Bobby Rahal extremely highly.)
 
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According to the person who designed the Williams car you are talking about Senna had nothing to do with it. Newey states the car was developed by Damon Hill & David Coulthard; drivers he rated very highly for car development, likewise the Red Bull that Vettel was so dominant in was initially developed by Newey & Coulthard. There is a bit of a trend here - the Mclaren that was dominant was also developed by Newey & Coulthard (Newey actually states Mika Hakinen's feedback could be confusing at times.)

Notice how often Newey & Coulthard were in the same team? No luck involved in that TBH.

....................I think Adrian Newey may know a little bit more than what you observations are showing?

(P.S. He rated Bobby Rahal extremely highly.)
Sigh.

Read this bit:

"Damon Hill and JV had luck to be in a team that Ayrton Senna had been part of, even if he hadn't been directly involved in the design of the cars they won in."

The input given by Senna, would have helped Williams with improving the car. Senna was the master at getting a fraction of a percent extra, from a car, in a way hardly any other drivers since, have been able to (bar perhaps Alonso, who you keep (wrongly) claiming 'can't develop a car' :LOL: ).

Anyway; in your desire to 'win', you will at least praps learn summat, and find it interesting. Have fun.
 
So it looks like Pérez might get replaced by Vettel next year. I’d not do that.
Vettel needs a fresh challenge. Ferrari aren't going anywhere this year, probbly next year either. At least in a new team, he can structure things better around him. Ferrari have failed Alonso, Vettel and Raikkonen, all WCs. The problem isn't with the drivers...
 
Back to actual motor racing; it's great news that Alonso will be returning, the sport has been worse off without him. One of the best drivers ever, no question. A driver who took on Schumacher at his peak, and beat him, in arguably an inferior car. A driver who could drag a Lada to a podium place. His performances in that terrible McLaren recently, were far better than most people even considered. He'd drag it up to 7th, when his team mate could barely drag it home. He was the only driver getting anywhere near Vettel during that legendary Red Bull run.

IMO, there were 3 drivers who were just better than the rest; Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. See their performances against team mates; Alonso was always rightly number one (had Ron Dennis backed Alonso in 2007, instead of focusing his attentions on his protege, LH, Alonso would easily have won that year's DWC. RD's ego led to Kimi Raikkonen winning instead. Yes, LH was good, but still had lots to learn, and establishing a team hierarchy (as Alonso had specified in his contract) would have yielded a better outcome for the team. And keeping Alonso on would have been a lot better for the team in the long run; LH is fantastic in a great car, but lacks Alonso's inate ability to improve a substandard car. Hence McLaren went backwards following LH's 2008 WC win. LH was outscored and often outdriven, by Jenson Button, during their 3 years together. Has Alonso ever been outscored by a team mate, during his career? I don't think so. Remember; he was always way ahead of Fisichella, Barrichelo, Massa and Raikkonen. And anyone else he's been paired with, bar LH. LH has been outscored by a team mate, twice. And he isn't the car developer Alonso is; he's always been lucky to have the best cars, the McLaren slump and early Mercedes periods apart. He's never really shone in an underperforming/inferior car in the way Alonso and Vettel have. That's the mark of a true great. To win in an inferior car.

Vettel is a strange fish; undoubtedly a great driver, but clearly subject to issues that interfere with his focus. It's clear Ferrari just haven't been any good in the last what, 10 years at least, in spite of having two top drivers. I think that demotivates Vettel; he's clearly not the same driver that won with the Torro Rosso in Monza all those years ago. But he routinely made Mark Webber look very ordinary, and Webber had made Coulthard look ordinary, let's face it. So where's that talent gone? Seems to have left him and entered LeClerc. We won't see much from Vettel this year or next, as the Ferrari is another dog. And he's leaving anyway. But with rule changes in 2022, and Alonso back, new cars, a new challenge, it could be game on once more. Cos let's face it; F1 is more boring now than it's ever been before. Something needs to happen to spice it up once more.

Been catching up on this thread, you are obviously an Alonso fan but "Has Alonso ever been outscored by a team mate, during his career? I don't think so" although you have worded it very well, factually correct, it's not really the whole story is it.
Alonso and Hamilton had the identical score in 2007 but Hamilton placed 2nd over Alonso's third in the championship standings that year having had one more second place (both having 4 wins). Could be argued that Hamilton would have won the championship easily had McLaren not decided to leave him out on threadbare tyres in China.
LH has indeed been beaten twice by his teammate in the F1 championship, once in a Mclaren by Button and once in a Mercedes by Rosberg, Alonso has been beaten once, by Hamilton.

Was it complete luck that LH ended up in the (what turned out to be) best car in the Merc? seem to remember virtually everyone thought his decision to leave McLaren for Merc was not the correct move at the time, I certainly thought it was a major risk.

It is well reported by LH's teams that he works hard and well with his engineers, not sure where your impression LH cannot develop a car comes from but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I take nothing away from Alonso as a driver, he is right up there with the best, he doesn't play well in a team though, can be quite divisive.
Guess he may meet his match in that regard with Ocon, the French driver in the French team next year. He is also very quick and not renowned for liking team orders :)
 
It's pretty bloody obvious that even Lance Stroll could win the DWC in a Mercedes (if he had Karun Chandok as team mate). Ergo, it's fact. Soz, but that's just how it is.

Really? I didn't realise I was in conversation with the Oracle of F1.... Having a great car is one thing, driving it to it's limit without breaking it, and getting past other drivers, is quite something else.





I wouldn't disagree. But I don't fall for all the Hamilton hype, and know that there are other drivers out there, who are just as good. Hamilton's enjoyed a massive slice of luck to be where is now. In F1, you need talent AND luck. Damon Hill and JV had luck to be in a team that Ayrton Senna had been part of, even if he hadn't been directly involved in the design of the cars they won in. Williams had had lots of success. They were a top team. DH and JV weren't the best drivers in F1 at that time, however. They just had the best cars. Ditto Jenson Button, and to a large extent, Kimi Raikkonen (Alonso wiped the floor with him during their time together at Ferrari; clearly a greater driver by some margin). Two WCs who have been outclassed by team-mates (Alonso has outclassed both!).

Yeah, all great sports people are just lucky I guess..... And Alonso was good, for a while, but he didn't like being part of a team. To be a great in this sport you need to have a great team around you. Acting like a spoilt brat gets you nowhere, as many have found. Do you not find it strange that the first thing Hamilton says is that "the team made it happen" etc and yet other drivers don't acknowledge them straight away?
 
Been catching up on this thread, you are obviously an Alonso fan
Not particularly. I just give credit where it's due, and don't get sucked in to biased UK media hype.


Alonso has been beaten once, by Hamilton.
Not on points, only on a rule technicality.
Could be argued that Hamilton would have won the championship easily had McLaren not decided to leave him out on threadbare tyres in China.
Could also be argued that had McLaren favoured Alonso for just that season at least, made him No.1 driver, as he believed he would have been in his contract, then they would have won the DWC easily. As it was, RD's egotistical desire to have his own protege win in his very first season, backfired. After the following year, McLaren went backwards and have yet to recover.


Was it complete luck that LH ended up in the (what turned out to be) best car in the Merc? seem to remember virtually everyone thought his decision to leave McLaren for Merc was not the correct move at the time, I certainly thought it was a major risk.
It was a gamble that paid off, luckily for Lewis.

not sure where your impression LH cannot develop a car comes from
Well, as I've never actually said Hamilton can't develop a car, I'm not sure where your idea that I think that, comes from...

I take nothing away from Alonso as a driver, he is right up there with the best, he doesn't play well in a team though, can be quite divisive.
What do you base this assertion on? Alonso has had good relationships at pretty much every team he's been a part of, and is hugely respected throughout the paddock. Hamilton has thrown his toys out more times than I care to remember, whinged about his car not working, etc etc. Didn't exactly have a great relationship with Rosberg at Mercedes, did he? And remember Canada 2011? Button wasn't exactly happy with Hamilton's antics with that ill-fated attempt to pass, was he? This (mainly UK based) myth of Alonso being 'divisive' is just that; a myth. The media loves a villain. In the UK, it was Alonso, or Vettel (Before that, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Schumacher). In other countries, Hamilton probably isn't quite as popular as he is here. I take this kind of stuff with a massive pinch of salt, and 9 times out of ten, it's proven to be complete testes.


And Alonso was good, for a while, but he didn't like being part of a team.
More nonsense. Why do people keep churning out this crap, seriously?
 
2020 Formula 1 Aramco Magyar Nagydíj

gkeSdc1.png


Hungaroring
Lap data
Lap length 4.381km (2.722 miles)
Race laps 70
Race distance 306.67km (190.556 miles)
Pole position Left-hand side of the track
Lap record* 1’19.071 (Michael Schumacher, 2004)
Fastest lap 1’16.170 (Sebastian Vettel, 2018, practice three)
Maximum speed 315kph (195.732 mph)
Distance from grid to turn one 618m
Full throttle 50%
Longest flat-out section 908m
Downforce level High
Fuel use per lap 1.5kg
Time penalty per lap of fuel 0.059s
Pit lane time loss 20s

UK Times

Friday, July 17
10am: Hungarian GP Practice One
2pm: Hungarian GP Practice Two

Saturday, July 18
11am: Hungarian GP Practice Three
2pm: HUNGARIAN GP QUALIFYING

Sunday, July 19
2.10pm: THE 2020 HUNGARIAN GRAND PRIX



Previous Winners
2010 Australia Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault
2011 United Kingdom Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes
2012 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes
2013 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton Mercedes
2014 Australia Daniel Ricciardo Red Bull-Renault
2015 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari
2016 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton Mercedes
2017 Germany Sebastian Vettel Ferrari
2018 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton Mercedes
2019 United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton Mercedes

Videos

Vettel 2017
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0y04IVshI


Streiff 1986
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40fYnjSyhbY



Drivers’ Chosen Tyres
EbNEpJzX0AEutM5


Championship standings
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zyKMhja.png
 
More nonsense. Why do people keep churning out this crap, seriously?

Maybe because it's true? And God forbid, you may be wrong???

Oh no, sorry, I forgot we were dealing with the man that knows.....
 
So it looks like Pérez might get replaced by Vettel next year. I’d not do that.
Me neither. In my opinion he’s well past his best. It’ll be a damn shame for Perez to lose his seat to him. Though if he goes I expect he’ll get a fat payoff. I think there are many better drivers than SV on the grid.
 
So it looks like Pérez might get replaced by Vettel next year. I’d not do that.

Likewise - Perez is driving & racing well at the moment - vettel has lost his speed edge and was never the best at racing IMO.
 
Maybe because it's true? And God forbid, you may be wrong???
Lol! Ok then. :LOL:


Likewise - Perez is driving & racing well at the moment - vettel has lost his speed edge and was never the best at racing IMO.
Another myth; and I was accused of not watching F1? :LOL: Seriously; go and watch some YT videos of Vettel racing. Here's one to get you started:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U534aUHsWvo


Vettel's weakness is that he can't handle not being up at the front, he loses concentration and motivation. No 4-time WC would want to be languishing in mid-pack, way down the order, but Vettel suffers it more than others. Whilst Alonso will be determined to prove a point, Vettel just can't get himself in 'race mode', unless he's in with a shout. Understandable. Look at how Liverpool's performances have dropped off, since they became Champions. But the truth is, that Vettel is still a top, top driver. Give him a competitive car, and he'll be right back on it. Let's hope that the 2022 season will offer us some proper racing once more. I can't even be bothered watching any races this year; it's a foregone conclusion, a procession. I want to see some proper racing, not a season long advert for Mercedes.
 
Oh I love this....

Likewise - Perez is driving & racing well at the moment - vettel has lost his speed edge.......


Another myth; and I was accused of not watching F1? :LOL: Seriously; go and watch some YT videos of Vettel racing. Here's one to get you started:

And you come back with a load of "old Vettel" videos....

He seems to have lost his Mojo, but he always does if he's not considered top dog in the team. I could say he's another Alonso, but better, but that may incite a riot, so I won't.....
 
Oh I love this....
So do I. By selectively quoting me, and leaving out the bit that actually relates to the argument, you've basically spun off into a gravel trap. You're now beached, with no front or rear wings. Probable suspension failure, and engine damage caused by frustrated revving.

You were a lap down anyway, so it doesn't really matter tbh.

:banana:

[Breezes past in an unassailable lead; turns down engine mode to save fuel]
 
I see the old Vettel overtakes video is again a little misleading, yes they appear to be skilful driving, and they certainly are. But, I can remember quite a few of those from the time, a lot were new versus old tyres, the older ones were when the RB was king.

Take a look at this one of Hamiltons from last year, some are old v new tyres but a lot are not, quite a few against his teammate in the same car in the first few laps of the race!
View: https://youtu.be/CRSxAo1y3uM


Vettel was undoubtedly a very good driver, his first f1 win in the rain proved that.
He has lost his edge though now. Daniel beet him in the RB and he seems to have dropped his head a bit since then.
The pressure of fighting for the championship against Lewis seemed to take its toll and he hasn't recovered.
 
So do I. By selectively quoting me, and leaving out the bit that actually relates to the argument, you've basically spun off into a gravel trap. You're now beached, with no front or rear wings. Probable suspension failure, and engine damage caused by frustrated revving.

You were a lap down anyway, so it doesn't really matter tbh.

:banana:

[Breezes past in an unassailable lead; turns down engine mode to save fuel]


I don't think so, and I reckon you've been stuck in the pits since the start of the race...

I can't be bothered with this any more. You have your opinion, I have mine. Goodnight.
 
Vettel was undoubtedly a very good driver, his first f1 win in the rain proved that.
He has lost his edge though now. Daniel beet him in the RB and he seems to have dropped his head a bit since then.
The pressure of fighting for the championship against Lewis seemed to take its toll and he hasn't recovered.

Vettel is a great driver, no question. But yeah, he does seem to be adversely affected by a lack of race-winning performance of the car. Understandable, but where Alonso will wrestle a crap car up the order, just to prove a point, Vettel's head goes down and he loses motivation and concentration. But then, this has also affected Hamilton during his career; plenty of poor performances, mistakes and stupid incidents, not to mention the dummy spitting, when the McLaren was in the doldrums. in that respect, I don't think those three are all that different really. Who would be happy with equipment that underperforms, if they know they can be up at the front in a good car?

To put this to bed; I'm not a fan of X or a hater of Y; I just look at things more objectively than through the lens of partizan mythologising. To me, those 3 drivers are near enough equal, each has strengths and weaknesses. They are the greatest 3 drivers of the last 15 years or so, no question. I don't think Hamilton is necessarily 'better' for winning more WC's; I'll reiterate that I think he's had a big slice of luck to help him on his way. But as a fan of the sport for decades, I'd really much rather see greater parity in terms of equipment, and things being more about the driver. Cos on their day, all 3 are capable of outstanding performances. Hopefully, the 2022 rule changes will bring things a lot closer together, and we can enjoy some proper racing again.
 
'd really much rather see greater parity in terms of equipment, and things being more about the driver.
Already tried and failed A1 GP
and we can enjoy some proper racing again.
Not sure what that is

I will grant you there seems at the moment only 4 cars are capable of taking the majority of wins but mid field gets a bit exiting at times
New rules dont make things even, only consistent rules even the performance as teams catch up with the fast boys
Pity Ferrari has now becoming the prancing donkey but thats karma for being underhand last year until the FIA put a stop to that
As performance and aero go hand in hand, to design your aero package from a car that was fast was not a good move now the speed advantage has been neutered by the second sampling sensor
 
Already tried and failed A1 GP
A failure of management/politics etc, rather than the actual racing, let's be fair. And there are plenty of other racing series that are much closer; Formula E seems to be a lot more open (and is the future of motorsport anyway). I do agree that part of motorsport should be about engineering and technical challenges, but when you have massive power disparity between engines, as we saw with the ill-fated Honda in 2015, then the element of fair competition disappears. By 'parity', I mean make the cars a lot more equal, so that only little tweaks in aero set up etc, can really give any advantage. Very difficult without much tighter rules, I accept. But I want to see drivers racing, not cars.

Pity Ferrari has now becoming the prancing donkey but thats karma for being underhand last year
Ferrari have disrespected the 3 WC's they've had over the last few years, and need to sort themselves out or leave the sport, imo. Everyone tries to do summat to gain an advantage, that's motorsport. Look at the Brawn diffuser; in the 'rules', but in the spirit of the sport? Debatable. Good for Jenson Button though.
 
Did anyone notice that Simon Pagenaud (boo!) won the IndyCar race last night having started last on the grid?
 
No.
 
Already tried and failed A1 GP

Not sure what that is

I will grant you there seems at the moment only 4 cars are capable of taking the majority of wins but mid field gets a bit exiting at times
New rules dont make things even, only consistent rules even the performance as teams catch up with the fast boys
Pity Ferrari has now becoming the prancing donkey but thats karma for being underhand last year until the FIA put a stop to that
As performance and aero go hand in hand, to design your aero package from a car that was fast was not a good move now the speed advantage has been neutered by the second sampling sensor


I did read that last year when the aero rules were changed, there were basically two trains of thought on how to make it work. Ferrari went one way, Mercedes the other, and it turned out that both cars were fast, but it depended on the circuit. Ferrari seem to have lost their straight line speed, which dominated some of the tracks last year.
 
Ferrari seem to have lost their straight line speed, which dominated some of the tracks last year.
Ferrari were fast up to the FIA stepping in with a secret agreement with them about the extra performance, just before the summer break Which suggests they know how they were finding the extra power but cant prove it or they can prove it and dont want to disqualify them
Either way a secondary sensor was added to the fuel flow, which indicates there was a problem around the measuring of the fuel flow limit
Them that seem to know reckon that fuel was added between the sample rate of the sensor so the sensor never saw it. Hence the second sensor making the sample rate tighter if the sensors work at different frequencies
 
Ferrari were fast up to the FIA stepping in with a secret agreement with them about the extra performance, just before the summer break Which suggests they know how they were finding the extra power but cant prove it or they can prove it and dont want to disqualify them
Either way a secondary sensor was added to the fuel flow, which indicates there was a problem around the measuring of the fuel flow limit
Them that seem to know reckon that fuel was added between the sample rate of the sensor so the sensor never saw it. Hence the second sensor making the sample rate tighter if the sensors work at different frequencies

Ferrari cheat? Never.....
 
Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. I know people get very passionate (not a fan boy) about sport in general, but no need to be rude to each other. ThankYouPlease.
 
No but he started it...
 
Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. I know people get very passionate (not a fan boy) about sport in general, but no need to be rude to each other. ThankYouPlease.

Thanks for that.

It’s a real shame seeing what has happened to this thread.
 
As a Grove lad growing up I am glad to see Williams moving up the field a bit in qually, hoping they can convert to points tomorrow.
 
Thanks for that.

It’s a real shame seeing what has happened to this thread.

F1 can be a passionate sport.... I've now got the other party on my ignore list so you'll get no further input on the matter from me....
 
I hope nobody's feelings are hurt with this
But all teams cheat , those that dont just havent been caught at it
 
A reminder for the insomniacs here. Tonight’s race from Iowa Speedway will be on Sky Sports F1.
I’m not a fan of short track ovals so won’t be watching it. I think IndyCar made an error in dropping some of the super speedways from the schedule.
 
I hope nobody's feelings are hurt with this
But all teams cheat , those that dont just havent been caught at it

I think there is a difference between blatant cheating (which the latest Ferrari escapade seems to be) and pushing the "spirit" of the rules (i.e. if it doesn't say you can't, then you can.)
 
If it isnt in the rules then its legal until the fia say it isnt
Remember the 6 wheeler or the suction fan legal til banned
But what about Tyrell with water injection containing additives or Benetton traction control and refuelling nozzle or bar honda with secondary fuel tank or mclaren /ferrari spygate or renault crashgate or Mercedes with illegal tyre test all caught cheating some with bans/fines some with slapped handies
 
If your not pushing the rules to the limits you're not trying hard enough.
 
If your not pushing the rules to the limits you're not trying hard enough.
Fully agree but doing something that is against the rules is cheating
Hamilton is undoubtedly one of, if not , the best current driver in F1 but he is losing respect from fellow drivers fast
 
Fully agree but doing something that is against the rules is cheating
Hamilton is undoubtedly one of, if not , the best current driver in F1 but he is losing respect from fellow drivers fast

I must have missed something here. What did Hamilton do that was cheating? And if it's commonplace why are other drivers losing their respect for him? He can't help it if he's the best driver in the best car.

Something I did notice from todays on board footage was that most of the drivers were having to put lots of input, then counter steer on the bends, but Hamilton just looked so smooth. When I was heavily in to bikes, I always wanted to be one of those guys that could ride fast, but looking like they weren't trying. That's how Hamilton looked today.
 
I must have missed something here. What did Hamilton do that was cheating?
Nothing I was watching the race and what Hamilton said afterwards
Hamilton is undoubtedly one of, if not , the best current driver in F1 but he is losing respect from fellow drivers fast
That should have been a separate subject I apologize for that and it had nothing to do with racing
 
HASS were penalised for both drivers breaching the sporting regs on the formation lap “The driver must drive the car alone and unaided".

From what I have read it revolves around radio conversations regarding pitting for slicks before the race start.
How is that different from every other team instructing their drivers to when to pit. Many drivers are heard on the radio saying tyres have gone to be told to stay out etc.
 
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