big soft moose
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Doubtful - ive seen lots of similar examples so i'd say derivative piece of craftmanship it has the skill , but not the vision
Make your bloody mind up!name one well known piece of art not created by an artist ? (even emins bed which i don't accept as art was still created, it just wasnt done with much skill imo)
End of the day art is created by definition, thats what artists do .
Doubtful - ive seen lots of similar examples so i'd say derivative piece of craftmanship it has the skill , but not the vision
Make your bloody mind up!
in what way ? my mind is made up
As I said to be an artist requires both the creative vision to come up with an original concept , and the skill to create that vision in your chosen medium
Emin's bed could just about be decribed as an original concept (in that all sculpture is inspired by and modelled on something) but its not skillfully created - any of us could easily replicate it , and therefore its not art, because it required no artistry to produce. Unlike say Rodin's thinker which most of us couldnt begin to replicate and even those with considerable carving skill would struggle to deliver to the same sandard as the original
however Emins bed isn't a found work - you don't honestly believe she lives in a student like tip with used sanitary towels thrown on the bedding do you ? - she created it , its just that creating it didnt really create any skill. - the four teabags installation is the same - he didnt just find four teabags and go "OMG Art" he piled them up thus creating the 'installation' - its jus that there was no artistry required by the creation
Now, being controversial here, technical brains are technical for a reason. It is the mindset that attracted individuals to photography in the first place. The technical bit. Then someone like David (Pookeyhead) comes along and says that artistic photography requires more. Takes more thought and depth and planning and creativity. And this is where the conflict arises. Most photographers took up photography exactly and precisely because they arent that creative (if they were they'd be a painter/musician/author/sculptor etc etc) and this kind of debate then is seen as a 'threat' to their hobby. It touches on areas that they know aren't within their reach and mindset. They therefore react with aggression to the subject because it is seen to undermine the hobby itself. Obviously I'm generalising here but hopefully you get my drift.
I recently gave a presentation to a camera club in the midlands and I spoke about trying to be creative. Like David, I totally understand that we aren't all blessed with creativity. However, it is quite simple to build this into your image making. Inspiration is all around us and ultimately it doesn't matter whether its classed as 'good' art or not, its personal, its yours, its your creation. I have a hard drive full of images I enjoyed producing, some are rubbish, some I think are quite good. The fact is, I don't care what others think as I don't really show them off generally. If I did, I would want a reaction. Love or hate. "It's nice or it's good" wouldn't be a pleasing response. Interestingly, "I don't get it" also works for me.
This is now going pointlessly in circles. You are talking about SKILL, not art. Artistry is not art. As you seem unwilling to understand this concept I'll bow out again.
But art does not require skill, it requires vision, intent and execution. Artistry requires skill and sometimes that is also art.My point is that art requires skill - if theres no artistry in the creation then theres no art, just a random pile of crap that a half trained chimp could have created.
Its not that I am unwilling to understand the concept that you espouse , its that I don't agree with it.
If we were to accept that art does not require artistic skill (aka artistry) to create , then the logical conclusion would be that anything at all could be art, the bird on the stick that David bangs on about, the half arsed wedding picture taken by uncle bob, the heap of washing up in my sink, the lump of green putty i found in my armpit one morning.
Personally I reject that conclusion , and the premise that leads to it as it devalues true Art (ie that created with great skill and creatve vision , buy the masters of their various feilds)
The point is that everyone who can play a piece is a musician, and even if they aren't the most techically accomplished (and no one individual is ever going to be able to match the best of every genre) their music is all still valid as an expression of creativity.
fair enough - i assumed it was modern art - I would guess that all the similars ive seen were derived from piccaso rather than the other way arround (although that said even picasso's work was fairly derrivative as people have been crafting metal bulls heads for hundreds of years, so i'm not sure it passes the 'creative vision' test - even if it was created by a famous artist)
Which is a nice connection back to Brian Eno.which is fair enough as even being able to play a recognisable tune onthe guitar takes some skill ... but its not a valid comparison as what some are saying here is that anyone who takes a guitar and twangs it a few times is a musician if they say they are , even if they don't have the skill to play a tune
But art does not require skill in my opinion
which is fair enough as even being able to play a recognisable tune onthe guitar takes some skill ... but its not a valid comparison as what some are saying here is that anyone who takes a guitar and twangs it a few times is a musician if they say they are , even if they don't have the skill to play a tune
Agreed. Please don't do the "fixed that for you" thing though.Fixed that for you , and thats the basic issue you feel it doesnt, i feel it does , an no ammount of oh yes it does oh no it doesnt (he's behind you) etc is going to change that ... which is as it should be given that perceptions by definition vary from person to person. So I suggest we agree to disagree on that point
Here's a portrait I shot a while back. Anyone could have taken the picture, probably more skilfully than me.
At what point does someone become a photographer?
The point I was trying to make is that this kind of angry thread isn't normal among those with a different kind of creative outlet.
No offence intended I wouldnt accept that as art either - as theres no real inherent photographic skill i either seeing the composition or taking the picture, and it could easily be replicated by anyone who owns a camera. (this could also be said about most of my output - which is why ive never claimed to be an artist with my photgraphy)
The point I was trying to make is that this kind of angry thread isn't normal among those with a different kind of creative outlet.
I have a theory, its that photography draws the technically minded due to its, well, engineery type of logical process. What often happens is that we get used to and good at performing the technical type of image. As has been said before, taking 'pretty' well exposed pictures. The reality is that anyone who has also learned the technical skills could also take the same images quite easily. Often you hear people on this forum start to say "What next?", "Where do I go from here?" "I feel like I'm stuck in a rut", "It's just not holding my interest like it used to" and "I am struggling for inspiration". This is because they have reached a technical ability in their chosen field (wildlife/macro/landscape etc etc) and it no longer holds a challenge to them. It's like hitting a wall. What next, where next.
There is occasionally a little bit of argy-bargy between those who prefer to play by instinct/feel and those who prefer a technical approach or those who are self-taught and those with formal training, but it's usually good natured.
I'm not claiming it to be art. I posted it as an example of seeing something that others might not. Saying it could have been replicated by anyone with a camera pretty much dismisses the vast majority of great photographs. That factor is what makes photography such a brilliant medium - it gives anyone without technical skills the ability to make pictures using their personal vision.
It really is pretty obvious that trying to convince you that mastery of technical skill isn't required is a waste of time.
.
Without an explanation it is just a photo of a coat hanger.
My experience of this (generally) is that musicians who improvise wish they had the ability to play whilst reading and musicians who read wish they could improvise. (I am an improviser - I can read but not fast enough to play at the same time).
So it's usually a mutual respect rather than an argument over which method is better.
Steve.
I play by ear for guitar.
wouldnt it be easier to use your fingers ?
in what way ? my mind is made up
As I said to be an artist requires both the creative vision to come up with an original concept , and the skill to create that vision in your chosen medium
Emin's bed could just about be decribed as an original concept (in that all sculpture is inspired by and modelled on something) but its not skillfully created - any of us could easily replicate it , and therefore its not art, because it required no artistry to produce. Unlike say Rodin's thinker which most of us couldnt begin to replicate and even those with considerable carving skill would struggle to deliver to the same sandard as the original
however Emins bed isn't a found work - you don't honestly believe she lives in a student like tip with used sanitary towels thrown on the bedding do you ? - she created it , its just that creating it didnt really create any skill. - the four teabags installation is the same - he didnt just find four teabags and go "OMG Art" he piled them up thus creating the 'installation' - its jus that there was no artistry required by the creation
I listened to the Axis vid and have said my bit in the debate
I think I'm moving a little
Then I look at the Axis site on the internet and the first one that comes up is
http://www.axisweb.org/p/swilliams/
and I take two steps (well) back
Just that actually if you read what I wrote earlier. She was depressed, living exactly like that, drinking heavily and saw it as a portrait of her life at that moment.
I don't think you're being controversial, but trying to rationalise an irrational problem.
You mention other areas of creativity. I've been a musician since I was 11, starting on brass & playing in military bands, playing guitar from 16 and regularly playing out - it's been more than 35 years now, and I usually like to improvise.
I've been involved in music forums since around 2000, and one of the things that makes this thread - even this forum - seem so odd to me is that we would pretty much never have this debate among guitar players. If you play then you're interpreting and creating as you go along, whether you play orginals or are in a cover band. There is occasionally a little bit of argy-bargy between those who prefer to play by instinct/feel and those who prefer a technical approach or those who are self-taught and those with formal training, but it's usually good natured. The point is that everyone who can play a piece is a musician, and even if they aren't the most techically accomplished (and no one individual is ever going to be able to match the best of every genre) their music is all still valid as an expression of creativity.
yeah right , and shortly afterwards a magical flying horse landed next to the unicorn paddock bearing a message for her from Zeus (to be clear i'm not doubting you - just the honesty of that explanation - i'm sure you are repeating it in good faith)
If you're depressed , and living like that you don't wake up one day and say "hey this could be an artistic installation"
I once took a whole 36 roll of shots of my feet and an empty wine bottle while i was p***ed (it seemed like a good idea at the time) I'm sure i could come up with some pretentious waffle about how it was a paradign of my situation.. the lack of footwear being clearly evocative of the change of priorities brought about be alchol or some such... it would be utter b*****ks but in some quarters it would probably fly as art.
I may have mentioned before my freind lee who did a creative arts degree at the same uni i was at (he wanted to go into the army but needed a degree first to qualify for fast track officer training - creative art was the only course that would take him with one E and two Us) he hated everything about his course and as a consequence did jacks*** and spend most of his time drinking and playing rugby. The day before his diserttation piece was due in he reallised that he'd actually done nothing... so he glued four beer bottles together with superglue - one one way up and the other three the other way up , and four of us sat in the pub and had a creative writing session putting together an explanation about how these beer bottles were an essential paradign of the student experience... and basically threw in every pretentious cliche we could think of "the bottles were essentially contained precisely within their own dimensions , in the same way that the student feels contained by the dimensions of the university" that sort of thing.
He expected a fail , or at best to scrape through with a non honours pass. He actaully scored 86% for his dissertation module, which took him to an over all 2nd class honours position (dragging up the woeful exam marks). This told me everything i needed to know about the credibility of a lot of creative arts
That may well be down to your integrity or otherwise (and how much you can fool yourself)..
I did say I was generalising so the comparison doesn't hold tight everywhere. However, is playing someone else's composition artistic? Sure it's your interpretation and would rarely sound like the original but.....?
Also I have no idea about your skills as a photographer either and therefore you may well be a true artist anyway thus proving my point. Or you may feel you are still mastering the technicals and would never tire of the possibilities once you have done so.
I also have been in bands for many years but creating an image that means something to me is something I couldn't achieve musically. Of course that's purely my own opinion of myself so it's hard to discuss I guess!
I'd prefer not to pretend to artistry because it carries so many negative connotations.
Ok.. care to elaborate? What do you want to say about it?
I once took a whole 36 roll of shots of my feet and an empty wine bottle while i was p***ed (it seemed like a good idea at the time) I'm sure i could come up with some pretentious waffle about how it was a paradign of my situation.. the lack of footwear being clearly evocative of the change of priorities brought about be alchol or some such... it would be utter b*****ks but in some quarters it would probably fly as art.
i cannot David i'm in overload, be content with what you have
I may have mentioned before my freind lee who did a creative arts degree at the same uni i was at (he wanted to go into the army but needed a degree first to qualify for fast track officer training - creative art was the only course that would take him with one E and two Us) he hated everything about his course and as a consequence did jacks*** and spend most of his time drinking and playing rugby. The day before his diserttation piece was due in he reallised that he'd actually done nothing... so he glued four beer bottles together with superglue - one one way up and the other three the other way up , and four of us sat in the pub and had a creative writing session putting together an explanation about how these beer bottles were an essential paradign of the student experience... and basically threw in every pretentious cliche we could think of "the bottles were essentially contained precisely within their own dimensions , in the same way that the student feels contained by the dimensions of the university" that sort of thing.
He expected a fail , or at best to scrape through with a non honours pass. He actaully scored 86% for his dissertation module, which took him to an over all 2nd class honours position (dragging up the woeful exam marks). This told me everything i needed to know about the credibility of a lot of creative arts