The virus. PPE. Part 1

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I know this wont be a popular view but I really don't care about Cummings. He is as far as I know not an elected official and again afaik he isn't a scientific or medical advisor so I wouldn't even attempt to hold him to the same standards. Yes, he's an important advisor but I'm not sure that necessarily means he should be automatically expected to be cleaner than clean in all matters.

The lockdown will be interpreted differently depending if you're pro or anti but I'd bet that the voices calling for his head would be shouting for different reasons if the government tried to tell them what they could or couldn't do if C19 entered their families and small children were involved. I suspect a lot of this boils down to good old politics and hating him for being a Boris boy or for his role in Brexit, just my vho. Before I even clicked on this thread I know who some of the posters would be and what their opinion would be.

If caught by the police a member of the public doing what he did (allegedly) may or may not have been fined or turned back or allowed on their way or "given advice" but possibly not hounded out of their job. However, this is the shrill knee jerk UK where we love to target people and tear them apart and he's a nice target so humanity and understanding or even reason is out the window.

Mostly I don't care and in the context of group hugs, street parties and idiots coughing over everything and other people at ASDA I can't see what he did months ago mattering one jot so wouldn't necessarily want to punish him too much if any of this was really down to doing what he thought right to protect his child and wider family.

I care about lies though and it's possible someone here is lying. If it's Cummings, witnesses or the media I don't know. Maybe all of them to some degree and none are imo above suspicion. These days couldn't we get at least near some truth with phone tracking? If for example Cummings was in the same area as a witness who said they saw him walking by the Tees (or where ever he was or wasn't) that's at least a clue but if one of them was somewhere else, or at least their phone was, that could be another matter.

The government DID tell us all what to do if Covid entered our family. Stay home, in our primary residence. Do not have any contact with other people.

That's what my family did when we were ill with it.
 
Apart from the car sized gap between it and the silver car...

Would you park like that? Would you be happy if someone parked like that outside your home?

As I said above, it depends on your political standpoint.

I fully expect the media and the anti Brexit brigade to go ballistic over this and they may well get their way but is it right? Sadly what's right seems to also depend on politics now.
 
Would you park like that? Would you be happy if someone parked like that outside your home?

As I said above, it depends on your political standpoint.

I fully expect the media and the anti Brexit brigade to go ballistic over this and they may well get their way but is it right? Sadly what's right seems to also depend on politics now.

Honestly wouldn't give a monkeys if I could drive around them.

If I was in my house not going anywhere, it wouldn't be any inconvenience. And if I was out in my car, it also, would be no inconvenience.

But, no. Parking a van there, much worse than cummings. Carry on.
 
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I know this wont be a popular view but I really don't care about Cummings. He is as far as I know not an elected official and again afaik he isn't a scientific or medical advisor so I wouldn't even attempt to hold him to the same standards. Yes, he's an important advisor but I'm not sure that necessarily means he should be automatically expected to be cleaner than clean in all matters.

The lockdown will be interpreted differently depending if you're pro or anti but I'd bet that the voices calling for his head would be shouting for different reasons if the government tried to tell them what they could or couldn't do if C19 entered their families and small children were involved. I suspect a lot of this boils down to good old politics and hating him for being a Boris boy or for his role in Brexit, just my vho. Before I even clicked on this thread I know who some of the posters would be and what their opinion would be.

If caught by the police a member of the public doing what he did (allegedly) may or may not have been fined or turned back or allowed on their way or "given advice" but possibly not hounded out of their job. However, this is the shrill knee jerk UK where we love to target people and tear them apart and he's a nice target so humanity and understanding or even reason is out the window.

Mostly I don't care and in the context of group hugs, street parties and idiots coughing over everything and other people at ASDA I can't see what he did months ago mattering one jot so wouldn't necessarily want to punish him too much if any of this was really down to doing what he thought right to protect his child and wider family.

I care about lies though and it's possible someone here is lying. If it's Cummings, witnesses or the media I don't know. Maybe all of them to some degree and none are imo above suspicion. These days couldn't we get at least near some truth with phone tracking? If for example Cummings was in the same area as a witness who said they saw him walking by the Tees (or where ever he was or wasn't) that's at least a clue but if one of them was somewhere else, or at least their phone was, that could be another matter.

In some ways I agree, I mean have all of us followed the rules 100% - I know that I and many people bent them slightly, like going out on an hour and a halfs bike ride rather than an hour, popping to the coop for sweets for the kids (hardly essential), going out twice in one day etc... But this is a person basically writing the rules - if I as a manger of people in a senior position at work tell my team not to get plastered at the office party and then do just that, i would expect to be in trouble than 24yo Dave who is junior. I should know better. Same here, he is contributing to policy and then breaks the rules but in a big way.

Why should someone down the road get fined for inviting their parents for a BBQ when he does this, knowing he is infected!!
 
Honestly wouldn't give a monkeys if I could drive around them.

I believe you. Unless it was a Conservative owned truck.

The government DID tell us all what to do if Covid entered our family. Stay home, in our primary residence. Do not have any contact with other people.

That's what my family did when we were ill with it.

I knew your view before I clicked on the link and I knew you'd have multiple posts in this thread. If we have any real interest in behaving decently and giving the bloke a chance surely we have to consider his and his families circumstances and it is possible that he genuinely thought that driving to Co. Durham was in the best interests of his family. Surely that possibility has to be considered in our decision making and our rush to clear or crucify him. Trying to establish the facts would be nice to. I'd hope so but the UK is so divided and polarised now along Brexit and wider political lines that I'd hate to be in the public eye and firing line.
 
My neighbour's father passed away last week. Mentioned this morning that 'all the family' are coming from England (to Wales) and staying with them before the funeral on Tuesday. :eek:
 
My neighbour's father passed away last week. Mentioned this morning that 'all the family' are coming from England (to Wales) and staying with them before the funeral on Tuesday. :eek:

Tell him they can only come if they're displaying symptoms..
 
In some ways I agree, I mean have all of us followed the rules 100% - I know that I and many people bent them slightly, like going out on an hour and a halfs bike ride rather than an hour, popping to the coop for sweets for the kids (hardly essential), going out twice in one day etc... But this is a person basically writing the rules - if I as a manger of people in a senior position at work tell my team not to get plastered at the office party and then do just that, i would expect to be in trouble than 24yo Dave who is junior. I should know better. Same here, he is contributing to policy and then breaks the rules but in a big way.

Why should someone down the road get fined for inviting their parents for a BBQ when he does this, knowing he is infected!!

We've been just about religiously following the rules here. There's three of us in the house and the furthest anyone has been is next door to my sisters. I take on that task on and when doing so I knock on the door and then move back. No one has entered our house, deliveries are left on the step and visits are conducted with us at the door and visitors sat on our wall. But having said all that we don't have children and our support is next door, she's done all our shopping and arranged all our prescription needs. If we'd had small children and no close support network... who knows?

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the management analogy. I was in supervisory and management positions for decades and yes I had expectations of those around me but slightly different ones for consultants/other service providers. Oh and a ps to all that. In my time no one got sacked. We had issues and people were "given advice" and maybe some were more closely watched than others and at times some people needed a bit more slack than others but I am proud of the fact that no one got sacked, even the bloke who through a tea pot full of hot tea over me. An honest exchange of views followed, he accepted he'd acted wrongly and he stayed on the understanding that nothing like that could happen again :D

My point is that we surely have to try and see what the truth is and also try and understand what he's done wrong and why, if anything. Next would be appropriate sanctions. If lockdown busting is the only crime I don't think I care too much but if he's been telling porkies that's possibly another matter.
 
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I believe you. Unless it was a Conservative owned truck.



I knew your view before I clicked on the link and I knew you'd have multiple posts in this thread. If we have any real interest in behaving decently and giving the bloke a chance surely we have to consider his and his families circumstances and it is possible that he genuinely thought that driving to Co. Durham was in the best interests of his family. Surely that possibility has to be considered in our decision making and our rush to clear or crucify him. Trying to establish the facts would be nice to. I'd hope so but the UK is so divided and polarised now along Brexit and wider political lines that I'd hate to be in the public eye and firing line.

The facts are:

They didn't need childcare, they said as much themselves.
The rules forbade them travelling.
The rules said they must stay in their primary residence.
They travelled, and did not stay in their primary residence.

The fact is he should have to behave the same way the rest of us are expected to behave. Rely on neighbours if necessary. Probably not necessary though, since another few facts are that he has family in London and an aide that lives 2 streets away.

Another fact is that you *have* a job in the public eye, especially one that is involved in formulating these guidelines. If you *don't* stick to them, you can't be surprised when you have to resign.
 
They might get stopped on the border by the police - Cumbrian police did a very fine job on several occasions stopping folk driving to Scotland , and then sending them home again
 
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Another fact is that you *have* a job in the public eye, especially one that is involved in formulating these guidelines. If you *don't* stick to them, you can't be surprised when you have to resign.
That would seem to be a reasonable assessment.
 
The facts are:

They didn't need childcare, they said as much themselves.
The rules forbade them travelling.
The rules said they must stay in their primary residence.
They travelled, and did not stay in their primary residence.

The fact is he should have to behave the same way the rest of us are expected to behave. Rely on neighbours if necessary. Probably not necessary though, since another few facts are that he has family in London and an aide that lives 2 streets away.

Another fact is that you *have* a job in the public eye, especially one that is involved in formulating these guidelines. If you *don't* stick to them, you can't be surprised when you have to resign.

You're a very certain individual Andy. And that's not a compliment.

I started this by saying I don't really care about Commings but perhaps I do in the wider context of frenzy driven bubbles and the wider shrill humanity lacking society we're in danger of becoming. And I do think much of this is political bias.

And with that I've posted as much as I want to on this subject and I'll leave the people who'll post multiple times with multiple links and quotes to it.
 
You're a very certain individual Andy. And that's not a compliment.

I started this by saying I don't really care about Commings but perhaps I do in the wider context of frenzy driven bubbles and the wider shrill humanity lacking society we're in danger of becoming. And I do think much of this is political bias.

And with that I've posted as much as I want to on this subject and I'll leave the people who'll post multiple times with multiple links and quotes to it.

Only when the facts are easily discernable.
 
It's probably worth quoting the whole section. Orwell understood very well how our leaders like to bend the rules backwards and then claim nothing has changed. Grant Shapps is in the Squealer role here:

'It was about this time that the pigs suddenly moved into the farmhouse and took up their residence there. Again the animals seemed to remember that a resolution against this had been passed in the early days, and again Squealer was able to convince them that this was not the case. It was absolutely necessary, he said, that the pigs, who were the brains of the farm, should have a quiet place to work in. It was also more suited to the dignity of the Leader (for of late he had taken to speaking of Napoleon under the title of "Leader") to live in a house than in a mere sty. Nevertheless, some of the animals were disturbed when they heard that the pigs not only took their meals in the kitchen and used the drawing-room as a recreation room, but also slept in the beds. Boxer passed it off as usual with "Napoleon is always right!", but Clover, who thought she remembered a definite ruling against beds, went to the end of the barn and tried to puzzle out the Seven Commandments which were inscribed there. Finding herself unable to read more than individual letters, she fetched Muriel.

"Muriel," she said, "read me the Fourth Commandment. Does it not say something about never sleeping in a bed?"

With some difficulty Muriel spelt it out.

"It says, 'No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets,"' she announced finally.

Curiously enough, Clover had not remembered that the Fourth Commandment mentioned sheets; but as it was there on the wall, it must have done so. And Squealer, who happened to be passing at this moment, attended by two or three dogs, was able to put the whole matter in its proper perspective.

"You have heard then, comrades," he said, "that we pigs now sleep in the beds of the farmhouse? And why not? You did not suppose, surely, that there was ever a ruling against beds? A bed merely means a place to sleep in. A pile of straw in a stall is a bed, properly regarded. The rule was against sheets, which are a human invention. We have removed the sheets from the farmhouse beds, and sleep between blankets. And very comfortable beds they are too! But not more comfortable than we need, I can tell you, comrades, with all the brainwork we have to do nowadays. You would not rob us of our repose, would you, comrades? You would not have us too tired to carry out our duties? Surely none of you wishes to see Jones back?"

The animals reassured him on this point immediately, and no more was said about the pigs sleeping in the farmhouse beds. And when, some days afterwards, it was announced that from now on the pigs would get up an hour later in the mornings than the other animals, no complaint was made about that either.'
Orwell was remarkably prescient in both books. People sometimes say not to worry “1984“ will never happen but they think that because in many ways it has and they are just like most of the folk in the book :( “NewSpeak” and all.
 
I am sure Cummings car would have been picked up by ANPR cameras somewhere between London & Durham if he made the journeys as the media is suggesting.......
And CCTV :)
 
Orwell was remarkably prescient in both books. People sometimes say not to worry “1984“ will never happen but they think that because in many ways it has and they are just like most of the folk in the book :( “NewSpeak” and all.

I think we're more in Brave New World territory than 1984 tbh
 
Ah that was hardly insulting Marc :) I'm thick skinned

I know you are Andy, it's why you seldom rise to it but it looks bad and drags the thread down.

We've kept this thread out of Hot Topics because it's the biggest thing to happen in our lifetimes and it's something everyone should be able to discuss whether or not they choose to see the Hot Topics section.
 
As I said above, it depends on your political standpoint.

I fully expect the media and the anti Brexit brigade to go ballistic over this and they may well get their way but is it right? Sadly what's right seems to also depend on politics now.

View: https://BANNED/SteveBakerHW/status/1264454424770076673

View: https://BANNED/JuliaHB1/status/1264466164610187264

https://BANNED/Nigel_Farage/status/1264486079736020992
 
View: https://BANNED/SteveBakerHW/status/1264454424770076673

View: https://BANNED/JuliaHB1/status/1264466164610187264

https://BANNED/Nigel_Farage/status/1264486079736020992
And before the brexiteers here start moaning, Cummings has already played The Brexit card in comments to the press yesterday saying something like “you were all wrong about Brexit too”, though in itself that is a meaningless comment.
 
Another fact is that you *have* a job in the public eye, especially one that is involved in formulating these guidelines. If you *don't* stick to them, you can't be surprised when you have to resign.

This. Rightly or wrongly you are subject to more scrutiny as a public figure. If I post or do something inappropriate, not many people will know and not much will happen. If I was a famous sports star, actor, politician etc then I could expect to lose sponsorship, job etc.

You need to be whiter than white and be seen to obey the rules.
 
I know you are Andy, it's why you seldom rise to it but it looks bad and drags the thread down.

We've kept this thread out of Hot Topics because it's the biggest thing to happen in our lifetimes and it's something everyone should be able to discuss whether or not they choose to see the Hot Topics section.


TBH - IMO what really drags this thread down is the page after page of political 'point scoring' by circa five or six posters; there is lots of good information about the virus from some posters that is really usefull for others that aren't so clued up on medical matters but page after page of X person broke the rules is just petty - then they hang on to it for numerous posts and won't 'let it go'.
 
Something else that's nagging away, London (Westminster) to Durham non-stop is around 4.5 or 5 hours, why would you subject a 4yo to that time in the confinement of a car with someone symptomatic of C-19?

And THIS is the one and only question, rules broken yes Im sure, however, deliberately confining a 4 year old in a small space with 2 covid positive people is to me actually a safeguarding issue. They may have shown poor judgment going to Durham, they may have shown poor judgement seeing their parents / inlaws, but they willfully put that child at risk of getting covid 19, AND even if they basically sterilised the child, IF the grandparents had any contact they too would be at risk.

Cummings has willfully put his own child at risk and there's not very mucher lower you can do on that scale.
 
And THIS is the one and only question, rules broken yes Im sure, however, deliberately confining a 4 year old in a small space with 2 covid positive people is to me actually a safeguarding issue. They may have shown poor judgment going to Durham, they may have shown poor judgement seeing their parents / inlaws, but they willfully put that child at risk of getting covid 19, AND even if they basically sterilised the child, IF the grandparents had any contact they too would be at risk.

Cummings has willfully put his own child at risk and there's not very mucher lower you can do on that scale.
But potentially lower risk than staying at home and 2 parents end up confined to bed, and unable to care for him?
However you look at it, they'll have thought of an alternative angle....
 
But potentially lower risk than staying at home and 2 parents end up confined to bed, and unable to care for him?
However you look at it, they'll have thought of an alternative angle....

Not only that, kids are not at risk from Covid, on the last numbers I saw 3 under 15 died (and they could have had health issues, I don't know). Yes, being in a car for 4 hours is close, but they are hardly going to be keeping 2m from him at home. If the kid needs a cuddle what are they going to do - ignore him?
 
Not only that, kids are not at risk from Covid, on the last numbers I saw 3 under 15 died (and they could have had health issues, I don't know). Yes, being in a car for 4 hours is close, but they are hardly going to be keeping 2m from him at home. If the kid needs a cuddle what are they going to do - ignore him?

Kids are at risk from Covid, luckily for you and I, neither of us are a parent of one of the three that have died from it, they can also transmit the virus.
 
Anyway, away from DC, we must start relaxing rules. Many people I know have been meeting up, outdoors yes but more than 1 person per household. In a friends village there were multiple people meeting up, in the main they were keeping to 2m, although some were having a kick around and getting a bit closer. I still cant see how my wife meeting up with one person and me meeting up with them later in the day is any worse than all 3 meeting at same time!! All the KPIs are coming down in terms of hospitalisation etc...

The friend we met up withs Dad is a surgeon and thinks the current restrictions are too much, the NHS isn't overwhelmed and though there will naturally be an increase in infection rate when we relax things, knows that we cannot go on like this forever.
 
Why do some posters feel the need to write " I know who will answer" or " I can guess the usual anti this or that will no doubt reply" ...blah,blah,blah... what do you these people want? maybe those that have a differing opinion should sit on their hands and nod in agreement?
For goodness sake,if you don't want to hear the asnswer, don't ask the bloody question....simples.
 
Kids are at risk from Covid, luckily for you and I, neither of us are a parent of one of the three that have died from it, they can also transmit the virus.

You know what I mean - we are all at risk from everything (just that most of the time the risk is minute), I could be at risk from choking to death on a grape tonight but I probably won't! Going out in a thunderstorm puts me at risk of being struck by lightning but I don't think about that. I would say bouncy castles are high risk but I am not that parent last year whose child was killed on one.

And I don't see how being in a car for 5 hours is any more dangerous for a kid than being stuck at home with two ill people for weeks!
 
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But potentially lower risk than staying at home and 2 parents end up confined to bed, and unable to care for him?
However you look at it, they'll have thought of an alternative angle....

Indeed on the angle, shame they didn't use that guile to see if their aunt who lives 2 streets away could care for them?

Not only that, kids are not at risk from Covid, on the last numbers I saw 3 under 15 died (and they could have had health issues, I don't know). Yes, being in a car for 4 hours is close, but they are hardly going to be keeping 2m from him at home. If the kid needs a cuddle what are they going to do - ignore him?

Sigh, you continually make these erroneous comments, no doubt it wont be long until you get back to the economy and everyone under 60, or was it now 40 should go back to work.

Kids are at risk from Covid, luckily for you and I, neither of us are a parent of one of the three that have died from it, they can also transmit the virus.

Indeed. Never mind the fact that death is not the only risk from covid.
 
I know this wont be a popular view but I really don't care about Cummings. He is as far as I know not an elected official and again afaik he isn't a scientific or medical advisor so I wouldn't even attempt to hold him to the same standards. Yes, he's an important advisor but I'm not sure that necessarily means he should be automatically expected to be cleaner than clean in all matters.

The lockdown will be interpreted differently depending if you're pro or anti but I'd bet that the voices calling for his head would be shouting for different reasons if the government tried to tell them what they could or couldn't do if C19 entered their families and small children were involved. I suspect a lot of this boils down to good old politics and hating him for being a Boris boy or for his role in Brexit, just my vho. Before I even clicked on this thread I know who some of the posters would be and what their opinion would be.

If caught by the police a member of the public doing what he did (allegedly) may or may not have been fined or turned back or allowed on their way or "given advice" but possibly not hounded out of their job. However, this is the shrill knee jerk UK where we love to target people and tear them apart and he's a nice target so humanity and understanding or even reason is out the window.

Mostly I don't care and in the context of group hugs, street parties and idiots coughing over everything and other people at ASDA I can't see what he did months ago mattering one jot so wouldn't necessarily want to punish him too much if any of this was really down to doing what he thought right to protect his child and wider family.

I care about lies though and it's possible someone here is lying. If it's Cummings, witnesses or the media I don't know. Maybe all of them to some degree and none are imo above suspicion. These days couldn't we get at least near some truth with phone tracking? If for example Cummings was in the same area as a witness who said they saw him walking by the Tees (or where ever he was or wasn't) that's at least a clue but if one of them was somewhere else, or at least their phone was, that could be another matter.

Yes Dominic Cummings is a very important to Boris political advisor so important actually that he was able to sack other ministers advisors and also instrumental in the removal of and appointment of government ministers. Lockdown can and will be interpreted differently depending on different ideologies but when you are integral to the decision making you have to be seen to be following the rules and guidelines that you help set and for that reason alone in mvho he should do as others before him have done and for the good of the group resign.
 
Anyway, away from DC, we must start relaxing rules. Many people I know have been meeting up, outdoors yes but more than 1 person per household. In a friends village there were multiple people meeting up, in the main they were keeping to 2m, although some were having a kick around and getting a bit closer. I still cant see how my wife meeting up with one person and me meeting up with them later in the day is any worse than all 3 meeting at same time!! All the KPIs are coming down in terms of hospitalisation etc...

But you said the other day that your wife was meeting up with 3 other people, 2 of which were nurses and apparantly should have known better?

The friend we met up withs Dad is a surgeon and thinks the current restrictions are too much, the NHS isn't overwhelmed and though there will naturally be an increase in infection rate when we relax things, knows that we cannot go on like this forever.

And?
 
Anyway, away from DC, we must start relaxing rules. Many people I know have been meeting up, outdoors yes but more than 1 person per household. In a friends village there were multiple people meeting up, in the main they were keeping to 2m, although some were having a kick around and getting a bit closer. I still cant see how my wife meeting up with one person and me meeting up with them later in the day is any worse than all 3 meeting at same time!! All the KPIs are coming down in terms of hospitalisation etc...

The friend we met up withs Dad is a surgeon and thinks the current restrictions are too much, the NHS isn't overwhelmed and though there will naturally be an increase in infection rate when we relax things, knows that we cannot go on like this forever.


I agree it is now time to ease lockdown more, as now I have a bike I will be going out Everyday.
 
And I don't see how being in a car for 5 hours is any more dangerous for a kid than being stuck at home with two ill people for weeks!

According to government sources when Dominic and his family travelled to Durham only his wife was showing symptoms at that time, he should have been isolating as he had come into contact with confirmed cases Boris and Mat and also because his wife was showing symptoms and according to government guidance if possible confine symptomatic person to different part of the property, now I don't know the layout of his home but I'm sure some separation would have been possible and certainly more possible than in the confines of a car.
 
If I still had my Suzuki GT185 easy :p

Not so sure I would fancy that either, 1st class on LNER from Kings X would be my choice.
Me and the missus did do it as a day trip, neither of us was ill and we didn't take the nipper either.
 
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