NSFW This is one of the most disgusting things ever...

arclight said:
UAE have now pulled out of coalition airstrikes because of the risk to downed pilots. That is what we are dealing with. Things get a bit dodgy and they :exit:
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I wish I could say that "the art of war" was all there is to it. Unfortunately I think it is much more deep routed than that with levels of unstated support. It must be great to be able to blame someone else to do your dirty work for you. It's a win all round whether win or loose.
 
You really are talking rubbish aren't you?

What has my former occupation got to do with this? The only time I mentioned it was in the context of perhaps knowing that Islamic fundamentalism was coming before most people. Apart from that it's irrelevant.
So along with telling me things 'I know', which clearly no one does including you, stop trying to cloud the issue.
I am happy to discuss things with you, but I really am not interested in you making assumptions and putting them forward as fact.
 
arclight said:
UAE have now pulled out of coalition airstrikes because of the risk to downed pilots. That is what we are dealing with. Things get a bit dodgy and they :exit:
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It looks as though Jordan was possibly the only country actually flying combat missions against ISIL, despite the fact that Saudi Arabia has the most powerful air force (supplied by the US of course) in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-Arab-allies-join-campaign-against-Isil.html

I guess it is actually a case of them not wishing to bite the hand which they are feeding?
 
boyfalldown said:
And while we're at it, how does one obtain Visa's needed to legally make the crossing from Turkey to Syria? In theory you could, but the reality is travelling to the nearest Syrian embassy ( I guess Moscow or Cario) and getting your visa may be a bit trickey. I asked you your first hand experience of the border. You ignored that too
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I'm guessing that those travelling to join the fight make the crossing illegally. Even if you cross at one of the recognised points, it seems it's easy with money
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...illegal-crossing-on-turkish-border-with-syria
 
Byker28i said:
I'm guessing that those travelling to join the fight make the crossing illegally. Even if you cross at one of the recognised points, it seems it's easy with money
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...illegal-crossing-on-turkish-border-with-syria
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Added to which, the Turkish authorities do not seem that keen to stop ISIL from attacking Syrian towns/cities near the border, such as Kobane, yet the same Turkish military have been shelling Syrian army vehicles. The Turkish border with Syria and then Iran is absolutely huge and impossible to cover totally, howver we do know that many of our Jihadis travelling from the UK and France are boarding Lufthansa flights form Germany to Turkey and then making their way to Syria (Raqqa), then on to Iraq.
 
Byker28i said:
I'm guessing that those travelling to join the fight make the crossing illegally. Even if you cross at one of the recognised points, it seems it's easy with money
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...illegal-crossing-on-turkish-border-with-syria
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andy700 said:
Added to which, the Turkish authorities do not seem that keen to stop ISIL from attacking Syrian towns/cities near the border, such as Kobane, yet the same Turkish military have been shelling Syrian army vehicles. The Turkish border with Syria and then Iran is absolutely huge and impossible to cover totally, howver we do know that many of our Jihadis travelling from the UK and France are boarding Lufthansa flights form Germany to Turkey and then making their way to Syria (Raqqa), then on to Iraq.
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which was pretty exactly what I said before someone told me that I was

Bernie174 said:
You really are talking rubbish aren't you?

What has my former occupation got to do with this? The only time I mentioned it was in the context of perhaps knowing that Islamic fundamentalism was coming before most people. Apart from that it's irrelevant.
So along with telling me things 'I know', which clearly no one does including you, stop trying to cloud the issue.
I am happy to discuss things with you, but I really am not interested in you making assumptions and putting them forward as fact.
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The Turkish border with Syria and then Iran is absolutely huge and impossible to cover totally, howver we do know that many of our Jihadis travelling from the UK and France are boarding Lufthansa flights form Germany to Turkey and then making their way to Syria (Raqqa), then on to Iraq.
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The problem is that unless the Turks know that someone's a terrorist there is no way of preventing someone crossing the boarder. They need the intelligence, which if they don't get, because it's not always possible, they have no power to prevent anyone leaving their country, unless it's one of their nationals.

So when someone turns up, saying they are an aid worker, the Turks have no options. In any event, they are stuck in a problem, someone could be intending to join one of the non IS groups fighting the Syrians, which they seem to be encouraging, rightly or wrongly.

The simple solution is to close the boarder, which wont happen because aid workers need it to get in. In any case, while Turkey may be the current easiest way in, it's not the only one. The alternatives are just as bad.
 
Trev4 said:
A deceased relative of mine who fought in WW2, once said to me:

"Never turn your back on an Arab, but leave them alone and they will kill each other".

He wasn't an intellectual but was speaking from his experiences. If that statement sounds racist, then I apologise, I didn't meant it to be that way, but as a general statement, it could easily apply to this group, and as Tom mentioned, the in-fighting between the various factions could well result in this.
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Been that way for 1000s of years in the middle east and in this case ISIS saw a Muslim attacking fellow Muslims the outcome of his capture was pretty much going to go the way it went.
 
It looks as though Jordan was possibly the only country actually flying combat missions against ISIL, despite the fact that Saudi Arabia has the most powerful air force (supplied by the US of course) in the area.
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UAE have been, but currently have suspended operations as they have no CSAR system in place, and want the US who do to improve theirs.

The Royal Saudi Air Force, equipped with US supplied aircraft and Tornado IDS variant, which is European and supplied by BAE have also been bombing. Whether thats current I don't know, but the information about Suppliers to the RSAF and them not doing/having done anything isn't correct.
 
andy700 said:
It looks as though Jordan was possibly the only country actually flying combat missions against ISIL, despite the fact that Saudi Arabia has the most powerful air force (supplied by the US of course) in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-Arab-allies-join-campaign-against-Isil.html

I guess it is actually a case of them not wishing to bite the hand which they are feeding?
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RAF has been flying combat missions since end of September and so has the US and other countries.
 
arclight said:
UAE have now pulled out of coalition airstrikes because of the risk to downed pilots. That is what we are dealing with. Things get a bit dodgy and they :exit:
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So killing a couple of people is enough to stop an entire country flying air support.

This is going to sound pretty cold, but I wouldn't bet against our side (aka "the good guys") thinking that was a worthwhile result if the tables were turned.
 
So killing a couple of people is enough to stop an entire country flying air support.
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UAE Air Force is very small to start with. Obviously no one wants to have a pilot shot down, but if it's going to happen, it's understandable that any country would want an effective Combat Search & Rescue system in place.

The only country with that capability is the US, apparently the UAE don't feel that is effective enough, and have stopped flying operationally until it's improved.

Given the likely outcome for any aircrew shot down, I don't blame them.
 
arclight said:
RAF has been flying combat missions since end of September and so has the US and other countries.
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Yes indeed, I was referring to the Arab states, who on the whole do not seem to be keen to be involved.
 
Bernie174 said:
UAE Air Force is very small to start with. Obviously no one wants to have a pilot shot down, but if it's going to happen, it's understandable that any country would want an effective Combat Search & Rescue system in place.

The only country with that capability is the US, apparently the UAE don't feel that is effective enough, and have stopped flying operationally until it's improved.

Given the likely outcome for any aircrew shot down, I don't blame them.
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Great!!!!, then despite having all the technology and the largest air force that the West can supply them, they have not the balls to get their planes up in the air and kick ten bells out of ISIL on the ground?

Perhaps they are waiting for the civilians in Bahrain to launch a revolution, and then they will slaughter them on the ground?
 
Byker28i said:
Captured stuff sure, but there's also a route for arms going through Turkey. That needs to be stopped, cut off the supplies.
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Surely the Pesh Merga can get a handle on the turkish border crossing given that its their turf - course itwould help if we armed them properly ( they are seriously outgunned too but the Kurds don't really do running away)

Slightly off topic there is or was a democratic (or at least not IS) opposition to Assad fighting in syria - what has happened to them ?
 
big soft moose said:
Surely the Pesh Merga can get a handle on the turkish border crossing given that its their turf - course itwould help if we armed them properly ( they are seriously outgunned too but the Kurds don't really do running away)

Slightly off topic there is or was a democratic (or at least not IS) opposition to Assad fighting in syria - what has happened to them ?
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Firstly, the Turkish army had tanks on the border, overlooking Kobane when it was being sacked by ISIL last year - they did nothing. The Turks hate the Peshmerga, and I would not like to bet against them attacking the Peshmega in preferenence to ISIL.

Secondly, do we really want to overthrow Assad in Syria, when he allowed all religious groups to exist in his country, whilst the US wished to overthrow him, simply because he was an ally of Russia and Iran?
 
Isnt Assad Bathist though - basically a fascist not unlike saddam hussein. Taking his side for fear of ISIL would be like siding with Hitler out of fear of communism
 
big soft moose said:
Isnt Assad Bathist though - basically a fascist not unlike saddam hussein. Taking his side for fear of ISIL would be like siding with Hitler out of fear of communism
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A weird kind of facist, who allows Shia, Sunni, Christians, Jews and others to live together in his country.

By trying to oust him, we have allowed extremist Sunnis to attack anyone but their own.
 
As i recall we didnt try to oust him - there was a popular rebellion - against his massively oppresive rule (round about the same time the lid blew off in lybia), we didnt get involved untill his army laid seige to the rebel strongholds and started shelling and starving the civilian population.

At the time the oposition 'rebels' were generally not extremist nutters and attempting to aid them with training, supplies and air strikes seemed like a good idea - then IS came one the scene (from Iraq where we royally cocked up by lettimg them get established) and the whole thing became a choice between bad and worse

The Free Syrian Army (the original rebels) are still fighting against both Assad and IS and are being supported by the west and by Jordan etc.. however as with the Pesh Merga they are heavilly outgunned and really need serious help asap
 
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Great!!!!, then despite having all the technology and the largest air force that the West can supply them, they have not the balls to get their planes up in the air and kick ten bells out of ISIL on the ground?

Perhaps they are waiting for the civilians in Bahrain to launch a revolution, and then they will slaughter them on the ground?
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The UAE Air force is slightly smaller than the RAF, with about 140 fighter aircraft, all single engine. That means if the engine stops, it's goodbye Vienna. Given the prospects of a captured pilot are not good I can't say as I blame them for wanting to wait until the US ramps up it's CSAR.
If they had twin engine fighters it might be a bit different, but certainly hasn't got anything to do with lack of balls.
 
UAE have Apache helicopters, twin engine.
Their main fighter is the F16, single engine but has a really advanced electronics package and a decent weapons platform. They have about 80 of these, recently bought. They've recently upgraded their Mirages, and bought new ones. Again single engined but packed with AEW and a good weapons platform. Single engine really isn't a factor in this. It's just political
 
Even ignoring the possibility of being shot at, the F16 & Mirage don't have great records on engine reliability. If the thing goes bang for whatever reason, you only go one way.
I can see why therefore they have suspended ops for now. If it was political it would be much simpler to just stop. Publicly saying why they have brings it more into view.
 
Bernie174 said:
UAE Air Force is very small to start with. Obviously no one wants to have a pilot shot down, but if it's going to happen, it's understandable that any country would want an effective Combat Search & Rescue system in place.
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It's possible the UAE weren't doing anything particularly productive (really, I have no idea) but from a PR point of view "the good guys" want as many Arab states on side as they can get. At the moment it's a war of PR, psychology and spin. UAE dropping out of the air coalition isn't good, even if all they were doing was a little light photography and some aerobatics.
 
Well it looks like the Jordanian government and its forces have answered many of the questions of what can or will be done. Steps to rid the world of the Muslim fundamentalist Islamic State are underway.

(Quote from a spokesperson from the Jordanian government)

"Every hair on the slain pilots body will be paid for"
 
It's possible the UAE weren't doing anything particularly productive (really, I have no idea) but from a PR point of view "the good guys" want as many Arab states on side as they can get. At the moment it's a war of PR, psychology and spin. UAE dropping out of the air coalition isn't good, even if all they were doing was a little light photography and some aerobatics.
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It's possible, but unlikely. Why have aircraft floating about in a high threat area for no purpose? No, it's not good on the face of it, but if it improves the chances of downed aircrew making it out then it's a good thing longer term.

I can imagine the reaction if we loose an aircraft and the crew manage to make it to the ground only to be executed. The first reaction will be to pull UK involvement until there's a better chance of them being picked up alive and intact.
 
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