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jakeblu said:
but their free to air there abhorrent opinions with the anonymity the web provides.
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But that's just it, they are not free to do so

It would still constitute inciting racial hatred and they could still be arrested for it
 
u8myufo said:
I don`t give a toss so much nowadays as even I have become tired of the dummy spitting,and the same people getting offended at the slightest comment with regards to C&C.In fact it has now got to the stage where people are wrapped up in cotton so much to protect their feelings,it is not even worth giving opinions about anything for fear you have upset somebody in some small way ;)
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I agree with Rich and would add my personal views as follows:

Unfortunately unless you look into each "case" carefully it is difficult to know what is mean't by what has been said in maybe 50% of the postings and why such comments have been made.

I have seen and see what I regard as disguised hypocrisy in comments from a number of members of this forum

A link to this post has been put in the Bird Section warning members who post in that section - maybe bringing that section into the discussion/argument - I now find this sad as I do not see that there have been any recent problems ...... correct me if I am wrong?

As far as the Bird Section is concerned, constructive or what maybe some regard as "critical comments" have really stopped, (especially from a technical standpoint), as they are just not worth making anymore - we can "thank" a number of members for this - IMHO much has been lost because of this and although we still see "good" images in the Bird Section, most are not particularly so when measured against what was expected, (and achieved?), say 12 months ago............ As such many posted images would benefit from critical comment which IMHO would help the OP. This has stopped and has generally been replaced by mediocre comments which say very little to help the OP........ the "learning process" has been stopped in it's tracks, but there are also other, more complicated reasons for this?

As someone said to me on here in the Bird Section, (forget who it was), "unless you have something nice to say, don't say anything" - ?IMHO, what use is that? - (I apologise now if that is a critical and unacceptable comment from me)....... and I now see many comments as ridiculess, repetitive and meaningless, but that is just my opinion and as such I now stay out of the thread

unless you, (we), are very careful the Forum will be "dumbed down" to sugar sweetness ..... but again that is IMHO what many want

Sad really - IMHO, progress in the Bird Section has stopped and most of the postings are now flat and ordinary, as are the comments ....... if that is what is wanted, so be it ..... good luck to the people who have achieved this, (again I must apologise if this offends anyone) ....... I can understand why some members leave or post less frequently in the Bird section than they did before ...... apathy can easily creep in

apologises and IMHO now seem to be "obligatory" as a "starter" in any "critical" comments that you wish to make ... after a while, as Rich indicates, you just stop commenting and "couldn't care a toss"

(PS - just to put my comments in context - I have been suspended or banned twice - the first time I genuinely thought that I was helping the OP - not sure about the 2nd time - plus I have also had one "kind gentleman" posting publicly that I should be banned, obviously he felt that it was his forum and he should be able to decide who gets suspended and who does not, the forum does have an ignore button which should be used to moderate with a small "m")
 
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Keith W said:
But that's just it, they are not free to do so

It would still constitute inciting racial hatred and they could still be arrested for it
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You just had to quote the section with the spelling mistake :LOL:
 
gramps said:
I sympathise with your feelings but find myself wondering how many times before have we heard similar expressions and found nothing done about the offenders ... it really is time for someone to take action if this forum is ever going to be able to live up to its profession of being the friendliest on the net!.
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Completely agree with Gramps there, the same s*** happens time and time again on here and nothing is ever done to stop the repeated offenders that ruin it for others, its about time more actions were finally taken.

Cobra said:
But if we take a hard line, there will be a lot less members!
And yes I know a lot of people will see that as a good idea ;)
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Sure your going to loose a few members if you started to get rid of the ones that cause the problems & trouble, but surely how many decent people do you think look at the forum and think about joining and see some of the threads and think na? Surely getting rid of the crap will bring in the good.
 
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Think Chris was saying it would be more than a few :D
 
Joeturner11 said:
Completely agree with Gramps there, the same s*** happens time and time again on here and nothing is ever done to stop the repeated offenders that ruin it for others, its about time more actions were finally taken.



Sure your going to loose a few members if you started to get rid of the ones that cause the problems & trouble, but surely how many decent people do you think look at the forum and think about joining and see some of the threads and think na? Surely getting rid of the crap will bring in the good.
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Yes exactly
I really like this site and care about what happens but something has to be done
This place really would be better off without certain people
 
neil_g said:
what about the ones that 95% of the time spend most of their posts offering good advice, but let themselves get drawn into stupid little arguments? do you sacrifice some good knowledge rather than killing the controversial topics?
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That's a challenge for the mods I guess, to way up is the 5% bad enough to cancel out the 95% good, lets face it a fart might only make up 0.001% of the volume of gas in a room, but it can still clear that room :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
BillN_33 said:
I agree with Rich and would add my personal views as follows:

Unfortunately unless you look into each "case" carefully it is difficult to know what is mean't by what has been said in maybe 50% of the postings and why such comments have been made.

I have seen and see what I regard as disguised hypocrisy in comments from a number of members of this forum

A link to this post has been put in the Bird Section warning members who post in that section - maybe bringing that section into the discussion/argument - I now find this sad as I do not see that there have been any recent problems ...... correct me if I am wrong?

As far as the Bird Section is concerned, constructive or what maybe some regard as "critical comments" have really stopped, (especially from a technical standpoint), as they are just not worth making anymore - we can "thank" a number of members for this - IMHO much has been lost because of this and although we still see "good" images in the Bird Section, most are not particularly so when measured against what was expected, (and achieved?), say 12 months ago............ As such many posted images would benefit from critical comment which IMHO would help the OP. This has stopped and has generally been replaced by mediocre comments which say very little to help the OP........ the "learning process" has been stopped in it's tracks, but there are also other, more complicated reasons for this?

As someone said to me on here in the Bird Section, (forget who it was), "unless you have something nice to say, don't say anything" - ?IMHO, what use is that? - (I apologise now if that is a critical and unacceptable comment from me)....... and I now see many comments as ridiculess, repetitive and meaningless, but that is just my opinion and as such I now stay out of the thread

unless you, (we), are very careful the Forum will be "dumbed down" to sugar sweetness ..... but again that is IMHO what many want

Sad really - IMHO, progress in the Bird Section has stopped and most of the postings are now flat and ordinary, as are the comments ....... if that is what is wanted, so be it ..... good luck to the people who have achieved this, (again I must apologise if this offends anyone) ....... I can understand why some members leave or post less frequently in the Bird section than they did before ...... apathy can easily creep in

apologises and IMHO now seem to be "obligatory" as a "starter" in any "critical" comments that you wish to make ... after a while, as Rich indicates, you just stop commenting and "couldn't care a toss"

(PS - just to put my comments in context - I have been suspended or banned twice - the first time I genuinely thought that I was helping the OP - not sure about the 2nd time - plus I have also had one "kind gentleman" posting publicly that I should be banned, obviously he felt that it was his forum and he should be able to decide who gets suspended and who does not, the forum does have an ignore button which should be used to moderate with a small "m")
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Why do you think we picked the bird section and not anything else?
It wasn't random. It was because we get more complaints about behaviour there than any other section. Arguably our inaction there is precisely why the quality of submission is lower than it used to be. We've let too much go and are paying the price through lost members.

We don't want it dumbed down to sugar sweetness but the levels of rudeness, trolling and ganging up are going to stop. There are ways to give critical feedback which do not involve abuse.
 
Joeturner11 said:
but surely how many decent people do you think look at the forum and think about joining and see some of the threads and think na? Surely getting rid of the crap will bring in the good.
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That you will never know,but what I do know is, how many decent people have left over the last four years? More than you ever knew existed ;) The real problem is not just those that speak their mind, but those who are very clever at winding others up with their play on words in the first instance.Scrivens was a master of this,he knew he would get peoples backs up,again that is human nature.So who do you blame? Personally I see it as two sided,when you read some OP`s comments it sticks out like a sore thumb,even I can spot it and i`m stoopid.
 
neil_g said:
not at all. okay look at day to day life, how many cycling conversations have been major contributing factors in civil conflict?
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See I'm sorry Neil but I believe that you have missed the point.
It isn't whether or not a discussion about cycling produces more or less problems than a discussion about religion or politics, it's about the way those involved behave ... there is the ability here (by the Mods) to deal with those who are uncivil, whatever the subject.
Just because people become uncivil does not mean the subject should not be discussed, those who can remain civil should be free to continue the discussion, those who can't should be removed from it (or have the courtesy to remove themselves from it).
Anyway I've said my piece, we will see if things really get any different. :)
 
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gramps said:
See I'm sorry Neil but I believe that you have missed the point.
It isn't whether or not a discussion about cycling produces more or less problems than a discussion about religion or politics, it's about the way those involved behave ... there is the ability here (by the Mods) to deal with those who are uncivil, whatever the subject.
Just because people become uncivil does not mean the subject should not be discussed, those who can remain civil should be free to continue the discussion, those who can't should be removed from it (or have the courtesy to remove themselves from it.
Anyway I've said my piece, we will see if things really get any different. :)
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havent missed the point at all. they're completely different things emotively.
 
Cobra said:
But who to "cull"? I'm sure that virtually every member on here has their "favourites" list ;)
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Why do you feel the need to ask?I would have thought your minds were pretty well made up :D As per my reply to Joe,a lot of decent members have already left this place,yeh you will always get the odd one or two who do not have the time.But my guess is they lost the passion,not the passion for taking pictures which I see mentioned every two minutes, but the passion to put enough effort into helping others along with more than two words.Same old scenario though,get rid of the problem if you think it will help,but you are still left with the root cause
 
Gremlin said:
It's not always the fault of the obvious that causes trouble, often a thread has been a proper discussion, certain people make a logical comments
and the rabble arrive to goad them, people who have shown no interest until certain members join in, then it's like a witch hunt to get them either banned
or shut out.
We are only human, of course people will defend themselves, some just don't seem able to bow out until drastic action is taken, then whinge about harsh modding,
unfairness and favouritism.
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Nail smacked fairly and squarely on the head (y)

jakeblu said:
I am guilty for responding to some outrageous posts by certain members, I try and avoid it but sometimes I just can't help myself :)
.
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You do surprise me Steve :p

Joeturner11 said:
Completely agree with Gramps there, the same s*** happens time and time again on here and nothing is ever done to stop the repeated offenders that ruin it for others, its about time more actions were finally taken.
Sure your going to loose a few members if you started to get rid of the ones that cause the problems & trouble, but surely how many decent people do you think look at the forum and think about joining and see some of the threads and think na? Surely getting rid of the crap will bring in the good.
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As you may well remember Joe, we had a bit of a clear out of the birding section sometime ago, did it really make that much difference?


u8myufo said:
Why do you feel the need to ask?I would have thought your minds were pretty well made up :D
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See my post to Joe ;)
 
dod said:
Why do you think we picked the bird section and not anything else?
It wasn't random. It was because we get more complaints about behaviour there than any other section. Arguably our inaction there is precisely why the quality of submission is lower than it used to be. We've let too much go and are paying the price through lost members.

We don't want it dumbed down to sugar sweetness but the levels of rudeness, trolling and ganging up are going to stop. There are ways to give critical feedback which do not involve abuse.
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when was the last time you had a problem in the Bird Section - the section was "warned" and things changed - what justification do you now have to bring the Bird Section into this thread ....... if you feel that there are problems in the Bird Section now ........ well I just do not know what to say.

I post very few bird images now and in fact after your comments on this thread referencing the Bird Section it is time that I stopped posting, the section has been ruined, (do I have to use it, IMHO)

Moderation has to be credible to be effective ..... when was the last time you needed to moderate the Bird Section?

From what you have said in this thread and by bringing the Bird Section into your current criticism, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO it is clear to me that the main problem is with the Moderators rather than the members ...... on the one hand you admit that you have failed to act in a timely way and on the other when you act you (sometimes), you do not appreciate or understand what the problem is and act erroneously.

IMHO, you need to accept what the members think if you are to improve the quality of your moderation - it is easy to blame "the indians" but you sometimes have to look at "the chiefs" ....... if this Forum IS failing it is failing through poor moderation which has led to a fall in the level of quality of the images and the narrative posted.
 
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MWHCVT said:
That's a challenge for the mods I guess, to way up is the 5% bad enough to cancel out the 95% good, lets face it a fart might only make up 0.001% of the volume of gas in a room, but it can still clear that room :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
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An excellent analogy... :exit:
 
BillN_33 said:
it is clear to me that the main problem is with the Moderators rather than the members ......
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The Moderators can only deal with what is posted, so the problem by definition must start with the members.

That's not to say liberal moderation hasn't exacerbated the situation, but the Mods don't cause abuse, only fail to act upon it. Ultimately the bucks stops with the poster him/herself, and (s)he must accept the consequences of that.
 
Llamaman said:
but the Mods don't cause abuse, only fail to act upon it.
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As we say time and again, some stuff happens that you don't know about ;)
 
Llamaman said:
The Moderators can only deal with what is posted, so the problem by definition must start with the members.

That's not to say liberal moderation hasn't exacerbated the situation, but the Mods don't cause abuse, only fail to act upon it. Ultimately the bucks stops with the poster him/herself, and (s)he must accept the consequences of that.
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Moderators can makes comments in threads which change the course of the thread, they can understand both sides and take action, IMHO they have and do ignore certain members and aspects of threads and yes I would agree with earlier comments in that there seems a bias in what they do not do when looking at what certain members do and say .....
that to me is the main problem and how some threads develop into what can be undesirable - the Mods work and give their time for free, but also members who post images and make comments do .......
but as I have indicated the "Bird Section" has become a section that should not be a Critique forum at all - because of what has happened in this section, not particularly the NEGATIVES, but also some of the IMHO pathetic threads and comments that are posted, IMHO I am not sure that the Moderators know what critique is .....

IMHO, the Bird Section is now a "sugar sweet" section which has been "dumbed down" with a few good images only posted now and again ......... with repetition and "great" images posted daily on which no one, because of the past, offers critique......... but as I will probably be told by the Moderators ....... "don't post then and ignore the thread that you feel that way about" - which is precisely what I do and to hear from the

Moderators by implication that there are now problems in the Bird Section amazes me - IMHO there are problem in the Bird Section but they are not the ones that the Moderators recognise

My comments ONLY refer to the Bird Section, in which the Critique element has now, IMHO, become next to useless - IMVHO ruined by a small number of members who would never say anything that would get them anywhere near a ban
 
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Ive tried my hardest to take no notice of certain members on here, as I really dont enjoy getting into silly arguments, and I think ive probably improved a little in that respect. Unfortunately, there are certain subjects so emotive, that I find it hard to resist having a bit of a say sometimes (even though I KNOW I shouldnt get involved). I can look at the title of a thread, and know exactly who will be commenting on it, and I can normally predict the content of those comments based on their posting history. I know im not the only person that can do this. I then 'have'to have a look to see if I was right or not, and it gives me no pleasure when I prove myself right.

As has been said on thread already, it does seem to be the same people all the time that wind the others up. I know that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it does seem that sometimes, I see comments from people that go against any ideas that I would expect reasonable adult HUMAN BEINGS would have. It is very rare that these attitudes will go unchallenged, and these people know that. They seem to enjoy the attention/uproar that it causes. Its good to see that some small bans have ben handed out, as this place really should be a respectable/friendly place to visit. My question though is, how many times does a person need to serve a small slap on the wrists ban, until they are banned permanently?
 
Cobra said:
As we say time and again, some stuff happens that you don't know about ;)
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And with due respect to the Moderators, I think that's been the problem. When people see the same provocation and unpleasantness without any apparent action (even if they report it), it creates the impression that there are no rules or standards - which results in people either becoming disillusioned and leaving, or taking matters into their own hands.
I'm not suggesting every warning needs to be made in big bold red text on the thread (there are times when a subtler approach would work) but it's been clear for some time that there is a small cabal of posters who repeatedly provoke and intentionally offend without any apparent action being taken (until yesterday, but even then the bans were uniform without regard to the severity or frequency of offence). That undermines confidence in the Mod team and the forum in general.
 
Blimey! so the site staff are responsible for all the forums ills!
We hope that members are adult enough to take responsibility of their own actions, apparently not,
and yes we know that some people post contentious threads and are happy to let them run, until certain members start getting abusive to one another.
No one is forced to join in those contentious threads, indeed if some members didn't behave like moths to a flame these threads would be non starters.
And Indeed some members are only still here because they contribute regularly elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in fair critique, its one word answers like "Crap" or two word answers like "Bin it" that help no one, if you see what's wrong or right, with an image then say so.
You don't have to sugar coat a comment, but at least be polite to the poster, especially the newbies, that maybe don't understand the so called "humour" that only the poster or their mates "get"

All we ask is that people act like adults respond like adults and respect each others point of view,
and argue / discuss sensibly with out resulting to name calling or calling racist if they are starting to lose an argument.
All these RTM's are read, taken seriously,and discussed thoroughly.
Action is only taken when we agree on the best course of action, by committee and not dictatorship.
 
Cobra said:
Blimey! so the site staff are responsible for all the forums ills!
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The world's ills, scaly one. So put down the Jaffa cakes and get world hunger sorted... by tonight, 'cos you'll be too busy tomorrow sorting out world peace.
 
Llamaman said:
:eek: THAT'S where you're going wrong! :runaway: :exit:
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I'll suggest that, we each take it in turns to ban a few (y)

Llamaman said:
The world's ills, scaly one. So put down the Jaffa cakes and get world hunger sorted... by tonight, 'cos you'll be too busy tomorrow sorting out world peace.
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If only I was miss world Eh? ;)
 
kendo1 said:
I have to agree with the old scaly one :)

How on Earth can the mods be responsible for what members post?

Act like adults and respect other people and their views.
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In nut shell (y)
 
kendo1 said:
I have to agree with the old scaly one :)

How on Earth can the mods be responsible for what members post?

Act like adults and respect other people and their views.
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Yup it's funny how it boils down to one simple word.

Respect
 
Cobra said:
Blimey! so the site staff are responsible for all the forums ills!
We hope that members are adult enough to take responsibility of their own actions, apparently not,
and yes we know that some people post contentious threads and are happy to let them run, until certain members start getting abusive to one another.
No one is forced to join in those contentious threads, indeed if some members didn't behave like moths to a flame these threads would be non starters.
And Indeed some members are only still here because they contribute regularly elsewhere.

There is nothing wrong in fair critique, its one word answers like "Crap" or two word answers like "Bin it" that help no one, if you see what's wrong or right, with an image then say so.
You don't have to sugar coat a comment, but at least be polite to the poster, especially the newbies, that maybe don't understand the so called "humour" that only the poster or their mates "get"

All we ask is that people act like adults respond like adults and respect each others point of view,
and argue / discuss sensibly with out resulting to name calling or calling racist if they are starting to lose an argument.
All these RTM's are read, taken seriously,and discussed thoroughly.
Action is only taken when we agree on the best course of action, by committee and not dictatorship.
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I am still waiting to hear why the Bird Section has been brought into this discussion, as far as I am concerned the Mods plus a few longer serving members have been successful in "dumbing down" all what happens in that section ...... and anyone who previously offered useful critique has in the main just stopped ........ if you want intelligent and progressive critique on your bird images to help you progress unfortunately this is now not the place

The words "crap" and "bin it" have rarely been used ....... fair and constructive comments were offered up to about 6 months ago - some members, including several "long serving" members just did not want to hear this and still do not, either on their threads and even on other people's ........ and I would say that their comments in return were far more "abusive" than the critique .....
 
BillN_33 said:
I am still waiting to hear why the Bird Section has been brought into this discussion, as far as I am concerned the Mods plus a few longer serving members have been successful in "dumbing down" all what happens in that section ...... and anyone who previously offered useful critique has in the main just stopped ........ if you want intelligent and progressive critique on your bird images to help you progress unfortunately this is now not the place

The words "crap" and "bin it" have rarely been used ....... fair and constructive comments were offered up to about 6 months ago - some members, including several "long serving" members just did not want to hear this and still do not, either on their threads and even on other people's ........ and I would say that their comments in return were far more "abusive" than the critique .....
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I though it was obvious, it had problems, just like other threads.. All part of the same issue really
 
Wise cracks and simple simplicity

the Mods are responsible for the strategic direction of the Forum

don't simplfy your responses by trying to appear "Adults" in your oneupmanship ...... it has the reverse effect for some
 
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Cg_Girl said:
I though it was obvious, it had problems, just like other threads.. All part of the same issue really
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Have you not read what I said ............ it HAD problems

This thread is about CURRENT PROBLEMS ....... to quote one - "just wise up"
 
BillN_33 said:
I am still waiting to hear why the Bird Section has been brought into this discussion,
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IIRC hardly any mods post images in there, or go in there for that matter, so, next to the classified section, or equal too, are the two forums that we get most of the RTM's about.
BillN_33 said:
The words "crap" and "bin it" have rarely been used .......
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As above as we rarely go in there, we just see and act on the RTM's.
And that is the sort of thing we see reported.
Along with some so called humour that 99% of the members "don't get"
If ( a certain faction of) the birders just played nice, offered proper critique, then we would have no need to mention the birding forum as one of the "bad boys"
 
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