"Trigger" - The Dambusters

Garry Edwards

Garry Edwards

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Just watching this old film again, and the name of Guy Gibsons' black labrador (which was also the code word for a successful breach) has been changed to Trigger.

And, if that isn't enough, the gravestone for the dog has been changed too, with his name removed.

I accept that the name is no longer acceptable, but this is just a pathetic attempt to change reality and history https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53446494
 
so would you rather the word ni***r be blasted around TV for your self gratification?
the world has changed man and some words are simply not acceptable in any context
 
RIR said:
It is. The word was the dogs name,

Anyway, I can see that this is pointless, I don’t do PC, so I bow out.
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yes exactly its the dogs name and thats the point thats all it is but folk like you want to make it the whole story
and when society tells you its a bad word they are the people in the wrong.
 
Mr Bump said:
yes exactly its the dogs name and thats the point thats all it is but folk like you want to make it the whole story
and when society tells you its a bad word they are the people in the wrong.
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Final comment:

It is not the whole story, it’s part of the true facts.

It is, now, an offensive word.

“Folk like me” :D

Bye.
 
Mr Bump said:
the word isn't history tho
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The Cambridge dictionary defines "history" as...
(the study of or a record of) past events considered together, especially events of a particular period, country, or subject
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...so the word that dare not speak its name is an integral part of the history of world war two, both as the dog's name and as the code word sent to signal success.
and when society tells you its a bad word they are the people in the wrong.
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It's not "society" that says these are bad words, it's a noisy band of fanatics who think that they are the only people who know what's right and what's wrong.

Apart from anything else, suppressing history for any reason is an excellent way to repeat mistakes.
 
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Mr Bump said:
yes exactly its the dogs name and thats the point thats all it is but folk like you want to make it the whole story
and when society tells you its a bad word they are the people in the wrong.
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Unnecessarily confrontational there imo.

Re the name, it's a film about real people and a real dog whose name happens to be unacceptable today but attitudes were different then. Editing the film to erase it is taking pc too far. Are we to go through every film, every book or document searching out non pc words and changing them? Erasing history means future generations cannot learn from it and are more likely to repeat it.
 
Mr Bump said:
the word isn't history tho
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The word was in common usage back in 1943, and for many years afterward, as well as the name of the dog and the code word in this operation for a successful breach. It's right to move on (all language changes and develops over time) but wrong to change or ignore history.
Mr Bump said:
the dambusters thing might be at a pinch
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At a pinch? You cannot be serious.
Bomber Command crews suffered an extremely high casualty rate: 55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4 per cent death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war. The losses just in the Lancaster were 3349 (29.9 %). I suppose that you think that's irrelevant too . . .
 
@Garry Edwards

Firestorms caused by Bomber Command's incendiaries killed over 34,000 civilians in Hamburg in July 1943, 5,600 in Kassel in October 1943, at least 7,500 in Darmstadt in September 1944, 25,000 in Dresden and 17,600 in Pforzheim in February 1945 and 4,000-5,000 in Würzburg in March 1945: nearly 100,000 dead

yeah hero's every one of them
 
Mr Bump said:
@Garry Edwards

Firestorms caused by Bomber Command's incendiaries killed over 34,000 civilians in Hamburg in July 1943, 5,600 in Kassel in October 1943, at least 7,500 in Darmstadt in September 1944, 25,000 in Dresden and 17,600 in Pforzheim in February 1945 and 4,000-5,000 in Würzburg in March 1945: nearly 100,000 dead

yeah hero's every one of them
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Talk to Trenchard or Harris about that, the aircrews simply did the job they had to do.
They had to complete a run of 30 missions. There was a 4% casualty rate on average, so the odds were against any of them completing the 30 missions. I wouldn't call them heroes because they had no choice, but even footballers are called heroes now . . .
 
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Mr Bump said:
@Garry Edwards

Firestorms caused by Bomber Command's incendiaries killed over 34,000 civilians in Hamburg in July 1943, 5,600 in Kassel in October 1943, at least 7,500 in Darmstadt in September 1944, 25,000 in Dresden and 17,600 in Pforzheim in February 1945 and 4,000-5,000 in Würzburg in March 1945: nearly 100,000 dead

yeah hero's every one of them
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Perhaps we should have just taken the Germans bombing us as a blip in time ,your silly quote dishonours those of us that lost family in bomber command ,or indeed those that had family in any of the services during WW2 .. the nazis bombed our cities first we just retaliated in kind .
So yeah my uncles all 8 of them that served are all heroes to me .. in fact you owe your current lifestyle to the fact that millions of allied servicemen on land ,sea ,and air laid down there life’s so you could quote crap facts on here freely
 
Mr Bump said:
so would you rather the word ni***r be blasted around TV for your self gratification?
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Pretty sure thats exactly how its used in the music industry
 
It really is a strange world that we live in. Literature seems to be a bit more forgiving of language. In the novel “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” by Mark Twain, the “N” word appears 214 times. Should the “N“ word be expunged from the novel? Should the novel be banned?
 
L320Rio said:
It really is a strange world that we live in. Literature seems to be a bit more forgiving of language. In the novel “The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” by Mark Twain, the “N” word appears 214 times. Should the “N“ word be expunged from the novel? Should the novel be banned?
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If I was reading the book I wouldn't feel insulted or anything reading the N word.. I would find it normal in the context of the book.

BUT if I was reading the book out loud to someone else I wouldn't be able to say the N word...

Just odd isn't it :)
 
Mr Bump said:
yeah hero's every one of them
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My father was a lot of things, and I consider "Hero" among them. Volunteered for the RAF in 1939 at the age of 19, and spent 6 years on Wellingtons & Halifax's mostly in the Far East running Pathfinder missions. He was shot down once, but got back to base. Shot at by snipers several times, and along with the rest of the people of that time, they gave us our freedom.

You sir, are a disgrace to the country. Stand by those who stepped up, don't take the p***
 
Mr Bump said:
@Garry Edwards

Firestorms caused by Bomber Command's incendiaries killed over 34,000 civilians in Hamburg in July 1943, 5,600 in Kassel in October 1943, at least 7,500 in Darmstadt in September 1944, 25,000 in Dresden and 17,600 in Pforzheim in February 1945 and 4,000-5,000 in Würzburg in March 1945: nearly 100,000 dead

yeah hero's every one of them
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The mistake you’ve made is to judge history through a modern lens. I see it a lot with this subject, usually from kids but I don’t think you fit that mould?

WW2 was total war every man/women and child was assisting the war effort in some way be it on the field or back stage stuff like making munitions or even helping to feed/clothe munitions workers. Germany could have ended the war at any point they wanted all that would have happened to them is we would have helped to build them into the economic superpower they are today (like what actually happened!).

What do you think would have happened if we didn’t stop the German war machine? We had no choice but to use all avenues available to us and you should thank those brave bomber crews because they are one of the reasons you aren’t speaking German today!
 
Is a dog's name really that important with all the s*** that's going on in this country.
 
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tijuana taxi said:
Is a dog's name really that important with all the s*** that's going on in this country.
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Surely that can be applied to anything? Should we all stop doing whatever we intend to do today because its not as important as whats going on in the country ?

Plus this thread isn't actually about a dogs name is it.. :)
 
tijuana taxi said:
Is a dog's name really that important with all the s*** that's going on in this country.
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I don't think that it's the dog's name which is important. What I believe to be vitally important, is opposing the desire of some people to wipe from history anything that they deem "offensive".

The world moves on and change happens but it is vital to remember that “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
 
f*****g a******e.

Very little different that the two words above have been censored from the dog's name being changed in the film.

IIRC, Agatha Christie's 10 Little N****** had its title changed to 10 Little Indians and from that to And Then There Were None.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I don't think that it's the dog's name which is important. What I believe to be vitally important, is opposing the desire of some people to wipe from history anything that they deem "offensive".

The world moves on and change happens but it is vital to remember that “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
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Agree. It is a word that would not, quite rightly, be used now.

At the time of the film(1955) it was still in use(I don't know for sure as I was only 4 at the time) and the film was reflecting a time 12 years earlier when also I think its use was not uncommon and I think it was probably used as a derogatory term then but within the film it is simply the name of Guy Gibson's dog.

The Talking Pictures channel frequently has films which are preceded by a screen saying the film contains words and comments which reflect the time and some might find offensive, and I think that is the correct way to go.

We don't use certain words now but acknowledge that words and attitudes were different in the past.

Dave
 
Trenchard believed that nothing could stop bombers, so the only way of actually winning a war was to destroy the enemy infrastructure and war factories, which also killed vast numbers of civilians. Harris believed that too, and so did Churchill and many others, and the vast majority of the British public fully supported the mass bombing at that time. And they were right, because Britain obtained materials, labour etc from other countries but Germany did not, and only obtained their supplies by invading other countries and using their population as slave labour.

We learned the techniques from the German bombers, which set the London Docklands on fire, allowing them to use the fires as a marker to kill British Civilians in their night raids. People can learn their "facts" from Twitter if they wish, or if they really want to know they can read books such as "Lancaster" by Leo McKinstry, but it's 581 pages, so may be a bit much for some . . .
Tringa said:
Agree. It is a word that would not, quite rightly, be used now.

At the time of the film(1955) it was still in use(I don't know for sure as I was only 4 at the time) and the film was reflecting a time 12 years earlier when also I think its use was not uncommon and I think it was probably used as a derogatory term then but within the film it is simply the name of Guy Gibson's dog.

The Talking Pictures channel frequently has films which are preceded by a screen saying the film contains words and comments which reflect the time and some might find offensive, and I think that is the correct way to go.

We don't use certain words now but acknowledge that words and attitudes were different in the past.

Dave
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The unacceptable word was in normal use in 1943 and was not regarded at that time as pejorative, and my west indian friends used it (as a pejorative word to describe anyone who was low-class and ignorant, regardless of the colour of their skin) when I lived in London until the late 80's. I accept that it would be wrong to use it now, but @Mr Bump seems to want to deny history, rather than learn about it, embrace it and feel grateful to those who gave him a future.
 
I'd like to think that intent could be taken into account and if we could take intent into account would anyone believe that the dog was named with malice and insult intended?

I suppose these days the argument would be that the privileged white airman was displaying unconscious bias and insult was subconsciously meant.
 
Nod said:
f*****g a******e.

Very little different that the two words above have been censored from the dog's name being changed in the film.

IIRC, Agatha Christie's 10 Little N****** had its title changed to 10 Little Indians and from that to And Then There Were None.
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I think I'm right in saying that the original title was a reference to a countdown rhyme and in the book it refers to the diminishing number of would be victims in the plot.

I remember a woman getting sacked over this too but I can't remember who it was. She'd made the comment when number of delegates or whatever they were kept reducing. Someone complained and she was as far as I remember forced out.
 
andya700 said:
I can't see the Italians changing the name of this grape variety any time soon, or the lovely rich red wine which it produces.
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The word "negro" ("black" in English) is still used normally in Spanish and Portugese. It goes back to the Latin word "niger"... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niger

The word "nigger" is an adaptation of the French "nègre" which itself is derived from the Spanish word above. This Wikipedia page describes its evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger ...although I suspect it ignores Wilipedia's neutrality rules.

I'm informed that the Latin "niger" is pronounced "nig - er, which is possibly whence the "gg" in the English spelling is derived.
 
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The rhyme 10 little n*****s was still a common children's counting rhyme when I grew up in the 1960s. The word is, of course, still in common use today.
 
I grew up in the east end of London right after the war , we had the wind rush generation as friends and neighbours ,went to school with lots of them ,the east end at that point in time was a mix of every colour ,race and religion you can think of…. Probably still is nicknames and racial/ religious versions of them were in the majority , no one got offended and I learned as did lots of others it’s not what your called it’s the context and way it’s said or used that’s the problem .. and once you realise that and learn how to deal with it usually with a hackney handshake problem is solved
 
Garry Edwards said:
Just watching this old film again, and the name of Guy Gibsons' black labrador (which was also the code word for a successful breach) has been changed to Trigger.

And, if that isn't enough, the gravestone for the dog has been changed too, with his name removed.

I accept that the name is no longer acceptable, but this is just a pathetic attempt to change reality and history https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-53446494
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I am a deaf person. When I was a kid, growing up in the 1970s, we [deaf people] were called "deaf and dumb" because most of us have speech impaired and mispronounced our words.

After many years, we fought for our rights, to have this word dropped. Nowadays, many media, movies, television shows, books, websites, etc., just call us "deaf" and that's it.

Today, as an adult, when I watch an old television show, say for example the 1980s series called Minder starring Dennis Waterman (as an example, or any other old pre-1990s films/episodes), and if the words "deaf and dumb" were mentioned in an episode.

I would not be offended. To me, that was the old life, to me, it's history. I'll just say "Oh yes, that old phase, I remembered being called that!"

But if today, they were to edit out "and dumb" from every episodes and movies and books and whatever.

I will find it offensive.

Why? Because, it will feel like it never happened. It will feel like they never used "deaf and dumb" in the old days. It's like removing our reason for fighting for our rights to be called simply as "deaf" but never called "deaf and dumb."

What happens if a deaf person told his/her grandchildren that they once fight for their rights because of that phase. But the grandchildren watch old movies and television episodes, never heard the phase being mentioned, and then say to their grandparents "Are making it up? I never heard them mention that."

I think old offensive words should be left alone, and simply that today's filming or writing or whatever, simply don't use the words anymore. That way, future generations see the changes between the old and new. For example, they see the old 1950s movie and a 2055 remake (to illustrate a point), then they became interested in Black history, such as learning of their fights to stop the old "n" word.

Otherwise, removing the "n" word from old movies and shows, implied it never happened, and thus implied Black people never fought for their rights.

That's just my view.
 
steve_lyt said:
My view is if it offends you don’t watch it, you can change channel or turn it off. Problem solved. It’s history and it happened
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Turn it off if it offends you? You mean the word trigger? But then you say its history it happened... No it didn't

Confused ?
 
If by changing a name it saves someone from being upset why not do it?
 
I can only speak for myself, not others.

I have always found the use of pejorative, invective & swear words 'offensive'.........and as the years have gone by, when I watch the likes of The Dambusters and hear the n word I do wince inside, even though I know "times have changed" and 'back then' in the case of naming the dog was that really offensive?

However, I do not want history to be edited out! What is needed is context...in the case of the OP, as per public statues, a modern view explanation of the 'time when the name was used' compared to the 21st C view. Only that way will we learn from history in all its forms.

PS in common with many hobbies & professions there can be a skewing of socio economic groups & ethnicity.

Do we have any/many TP members from Black, Asian & other minority groups.

Bearing in mind the film Shaft and usage of the "N" word by the black actors.......where does that fit into the narrative.
 
I meant the n word, which was the name of the dog, the pc crowd have a lot to answer for. I’m surprised that you can still get black or even white paint , it must offend some one. I think all history should be scraped this would solve a lot of problems. And shut the pc lot up, it’s the selective removal of history that’s objectionable
 
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Box Brownie said:
I can only speak for myself, not others.

I have always found the use of pejorative, invective & swear words 'offensive'.........and as the years have gone by, when I watch the likes of The Dambusters and hear the n word I do wince inside, even though I know "times have changed" and 'back then' in the case of naming the dog was that really offensive?
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No, the name wouldn't have been offensive at all, and it would also have been absolutely normal to use it as a code word too - something short and memorable.
Box Brownie said:
However, I do not want history to be edited out! What is needed is context...in the case of the OP, as per public statues, a modern view explanation of the 'time when the name was used' compared to the 21st C view. Only that way will we learn from history in all its forms.
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Agreed.
Box Brownie said:
Bearing in mind the film Shaft and usage of the "N" word by the black actors.......where does that fit into the narrative.
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Words wax and wane in popularity. My parent's generation used to use the word "coloured" and did so as a courtesy, believing that referring to someone as "black" was insulting - but that has now reversed, most people of colour now seem to prefer to be referred to as black and "coloured" has become offensive.

I believe that racism is all about attitudes and actions, not about words. I think that the world has gone mad.
 
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