UK Government theft.

soupdragon

soupdragon

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Having paid into the system all my life it now transpires the government don't want to give me my savings back.

My not so good friend Ian Duncan Smith is proposing raising state retirement age to 70 in 9 years time and then 75 shortly after.
This is particularly galling for me as I reach my current retirement age (67) in ten years time.
If these plans go through I'll be lucky to make retirement.

It begs the question, was there any point in being a productive member of society in the first place?

If the Government stopped wasting my money on pointless aid projects and vast benefits for swathes of people who "Just don't want to work" I'd be able to enjoy what I paid for.

I can't be the only person born in 1962 that isn't irate about the situation.
 
soupdragon said:
Having paid into the system all my life it now transpires the government don't want to give me my savings back.

My not so good friend Ian Duncan Smith is proposing raising state retirement age to 70 in 9 years time and then 75 shortly after.
This is particularly galling for me as I reach my current retirement age (67) in ten years time.
If these plans go through I'll be lucky to make retirement.

It begs the question, was there any point in being a productive member of society in the first place?

If the Government stopped wasting my money on pointless aid projects and vast benefits for swathes of people who "Just don't want to work" I'd be able to enjoy what I paid for.

I can't be the only person born in 1962 that isn't irate about the situation.
Click to expand...

Your not the only one to ask that question, realistic speaking though if you look back at your life you may well find that you have had more luxuries than the idle barstewards

This retirement thing though is a bend over and smile while i shaft you situation, my wife had hers upped twice for being born a few days late, the first time was within 2 or 3 years before her 60th, then before she got to 62 they upped it again.
She is not saying she should have retired before men but it was the very late changing of the rules that annoyed her.
 
I too was born in 62. Fortunately for me, my company pension is quite good in that if I take early retirement the money I receive is enhanced to include the state pension until I actually reach retirement age. But you are right, they need to stop giving our money away to people who have no right to it and stop increasing the retirement age.
 
My view is that when you start paying tax and National Insurance, you have entered into a contract. Under English law, the terms and conditionss of a contract cannot be changed after entering into it, unless agreed by both parties.
Therefore, this is a breach of contract.
However, they are the government, so good luck with that court case!


Steve.
 
soupdragon said:
Having paid into the system all my life it now transpires the government don't want to give me my savings back.
Click to expand...
It’s a complete myth that there is some sort of “fund” that you “pay into”, if the government had fat sacks of cash lying around why do we have such a large national debt on which we are £40-odd-billion a year? The money you paid was spent on the pensions of the people taking a pension at the time.

When the retirement age was set at 65 the life expectancy of men was around 70 years and women a bit longer. So the pension payments had to cover somewhere between 5 and 15 years. I know people of my mother’s generation who took early retirement at 55 and are still claiming their pension at 85, that’s 30 years of pension payments, they have been retired nearly as long as they were in work.

The simple fact is that improvements in health care, diet, reduction in smoking, better workplace health and safety mean that people are living a lot longer and the current retirement age is unsustainable. Add to that the population is not growing and with the current backlash against migration (coming over here, earning money, paying tax and NI to pay for our pensions) it just can’t go on. The “triple lock” on pensions also means that pensions are rising faster than inflation and the younger generation have to pay for it but because pensioners turn out to vote no government is brave enough to put an end to the “triple lock”.

That said I would like to know what the government is proposing for work beyond 60-ish, 70 year old builders, firefighters, nurses, etc. don’t fill me with confidence.

soupdragon said:
pointless aid projects and vast benefits for swathes of people who "Just don't want to work"
Click to expand...
There simply aren't "vast swathes" of people who don't want to work, the vast majoirty do want to work but corporations and governments can't or won't create an economy that delivers jobs that pay a living wage. You should be asking why so much is being given to billionaires in tax breaks, far more is lost from the government coffers that way than is ever spent on aid projects. Those are the same billionaires who run companies that don't pay workers enough to live on so people in work have to claim benefits just to feed their children
 
This is one of those posts where it’s hard to not agree with most replies , I have decent state and private pensions but my wife has been left in limbo as they upped her age group a few weeks before her 60th .. but even if we had both pensions coming in they would probably move the goalposts ... one thing puzzles me is how that arrogant t*** i.d.s keeps getting voted in the man has no compassion at all . I agree that we should stop giving money away to other countries it’s now beyond a joke and it’s needed here
 
sirch said:
the vast majoirty do want to work but corporations and governments can't or won't create an economy that delivers jobs that pay a living wage.
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Upping the retirement age means that there also won't be the need to replace people already in these jobs
Whichever way you look at it one end of the age group is going to lose out
You have to wonder how much of a state pension the younger generation will get with the compulsory
workplace pensions in place now
 
You have to wonder what the retirement age would be if Ian Duncan Smith had to stand at a factory line for 8-12 hours, work on a building site or do any of the jobs that cant be done sitting on his ar*e in an office.
 
nilagin said:
I too was born in 62. Fortunately for me, my company pension is quite good in that if I take early retirement the money I receive is enhanced to include the state pension until I actually reach retirement age. But you are right, they need to stop giving our money away to people who have no right to it and stop increasing the retirement age.
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I also have a DB pension scheme and a separate pot as does my wife but it still boils my PI## the thought of hving less than was originally planned.
 
the black fox said:
I agree that we should stop giving money away to other countries it’s now beyond a joke and it’s needed here
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It's a complex issue and if it delivered no benefits do you not think that it would have been the first to go under the austerity bus?

Consider this, we really don't need that many more large infrastucture construction projects in the UK but we have world-class civil engineering talent. We can use "aid" on a reciprocal basis, we give them aid and they award us contracts for these kinds of projects which keeps jobs, skills and talent in these sectors in the UK.
 
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Cockney said:
Where are these 70 to 75 year olds supposed to work?
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Good point. Ageism is rife in industries these days, I'm under 60 but would not cherish the though of trying to fin alternative employment.
 
Also, does IBS think pension money just vanishes?
As far as I can tell it supports local business and, as such, much of it will help employment and eventually, through the tax roundabout, end up back with HMRC.
 
Gremlin said:
You have to wonder how much of a state pension the younger generation will get with the compulsory
workplace pensions in place now
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They won't get any, it's privatisation by stealth, just like they are doing with the NHS. Then there will be all the shock-horror-scandles when a load of private pension schemes go bust or are sold down the river like BHS.
 
sirch said:
They won't get any, it's privatisation by stealth, just like they are doing with the NHS. Then there will be all the shock-horror-scandles when a load of private pension schemes go bust or are sold down the river like BHS.
Click to expand...

More like brazen theft.
 
sirch said:
It’s a complete myth that there is some sort of “fund” that you “pay into”, if the government had fat sacks of cash lying around why do we have such a large national debt on which we are £40-odd-billion a year? The money you paid was spent on the pensions of the people taking a pension at the time.

When the retirement age was set at 65 the life expectancy of men was around 70 years and women a bit longer. So the pension payments had to cover somewhere between 5 and 15 years. I know people of my mother’s generation who took early retirement at 55 and are still claiming their pension at 85, that’s 30 years of pension payments, they have been retired nearly as long as they were in work.

The simple fact is that improvements in health care, diet, reduction in smoking, better workplace health and safety mean that people are living a lot longer and the current retirement age is unsustainable. Add to that the population is not growing and with the current backlash against migration (coming over here, earning money, paying tax and NI to pay for our pensions) it just can’t go on. The “triple lock” on pensions also means that pensions are rising faster than inflation and the younger generation have to pay for it but because pensioners turn out to vote no government is brave enough to put an end to the “triple lock”.

That said I would like to know what the government is proposing for work beyond 60-ish, 70 year old builders, firefighters, nurses, etc. don’t fill me with confidence.


There simply aren't "vast swathes" of people who don't want to work, the vast majoirty do want to work but corporations and governments can't or won't create an economy that delivers jobs that pay a living wage. You should be asking why so much is being given to billionaires in tax breaks, far more is lost from the government coffers that way than is ever spent on aid projects. Those are the same billionaires who run companies that don't pay workers enough to live on so people in work have to claim benefits just to feed their children
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A sensible reply. Back when you retired at 65 you would most likely only live5, maybe 10 years. Things are different now and people are living much longer. It had to change. There will never be a good time to do it. Don't forget that those affected have been the most affluent generation.
 
I understand the lack of funds thing, I'm paying for current retirees.
I take umbrage to the fact the governing bodies are happy to take my money but don't want to find a way of funding my retirement years.
 
sirch said:
There simply aren't "vast swathes" of people who don't want to work, the vast majoirty do want to work but corporations and governments can't or won't create an economy that delivers jobs that pay a living wage. You should be asking why so much is being given to billionaires in tax breaks, far more is lost from the government coffers that way than is ever spent on aid projects. Those are the same billionaires who run companies that don't pay workers enough to live on so people in work have to claim benefits just to feed their children
Click to expand...

There are a large number of people who would be very productive members of society if they put the time energy and ingenuity they put into avoiding being productive members of society into being so. If this wasn't true the large number of very productive immigrants doing quite or indeed very well would face a lot more competition. Try being involved in the recruitment process and dealing with applicants who are only there under threat of removal of benefits and see the issues involved when trying to find good people.

The sad fact is we (UK plc) just can't at the moment pay everyone knocking on £20k regardless of their wealth generating ability even if they (really do) want a job (and are really prepared to turn up on time and work) and neither can we pay the growing number of retired people a good pension for maybe 20 years or more.

Anyway, more on point.

Yes, the rising retirement age is a PITA but we are where we are. I've lived without any income apart from that I get from investments for about 12 years now, I budgeted for early retirement regardless of what the state retirement age may be and I also have a company pension which is looking like being a lot better than I ever thought it'd be so that's a big plus and a real bonus for me.

I'd advise anyone who is still working to look to the future and explore the possibilities and if possible make as good provisions as possible even if it means knocking that phone contract and cable TV package on the head and having a cheap car and instead putting money into a more comfortable future. My company pension came as a surprise to me, that's how much thought and attention I'd paid, so anyone with years still to work should be putting real thought and effort into this.

And one last thing :D

We've just got back from a lovely holiday in Singapore and one thing we noticed was the number of elderly people clearing tables and cleaning floors in shopping centres and food courts. This is great on many levels as it keeps them active, gives them a greater income and reduces the burden on the state. If only this could be so in the UK but sadly our high streets and shopping centres are dying a slow death.
 
sirch said:
It’s a complete myth that there is some sort of “fund” that you “pay into”, if the government had fat sacks of cash lying around why do we have such a large national debt on which we are £40-odd-billion a year? The money you paid was spent on the pensions of the people taking a pension at the time.

When the retirement age was set at 65 the life expectancy of men was around 70 years and women a bit longer. So the pension payments had to cover somewhere between 5 and 15 years. I know people of my mother’s generation who took early retirement at 55 and are still claiming their pension at 85, that’s 30 years of pension payments, they have been retired nearly as long as they were in work.

The simple fact is that improvements in health care, diet, reduction in smoking, better workplace health and safety mean that people are living a lot longer and the current retirement age is unsustainable. Add to that the population is not growing and with the current backlash against migration (coming over here, earning money, paying tax and NI to pay for our pensions) it just can’t go on. The “triple lock” on pensions also means that pensions are rising faster than inflation and the younger generation have to pay for it but because pensioners turn out to vote no government is brave enough to put an end to the “triple lock”.

That said I would like to know what the government is proposing for work beyond 60-ish, 70 year old builders, firefighters, nurses, etc. don’t fill me with confidence.


There simply aren't "vast swathes" of people who don't want to work, the vast majoirty do want to work but corporations and governments can't or won't create an economy that delivers jobs that pay a living wage. You should be asking why so much is being given to billionaires in tax breaks, far more is lost from the government coffers that way than is ever spent on aid projects. Those are the same billionaires who run companies that don't pay workers enough to live on so people in work have to claim benefits just to feed their children
Click to expand...
NI contributions have gone up though, years ago they were capped, I was regularly paying £29 / week with a cap at £32. Then the cap was removed and the percentage increased. Now It's about £90 / week.
 
Blame the people of Chingford voting for this ****bag, before him their MP was Tebbit
 
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woof woof said:
We've just got back from a lovely holiday in Singapore and one thing we noticed was the number of elderly people clearing tables and cleaning floors in shopping centres and food courts. This is great on many levels as it keeps them active, gives them a greater income and reduces the burden on the state. If only this could be so in the UK but sadly our high streets and shopping centres are dying a slow death.
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I'm not sure about that.
If there are a finite number of jobs then each one an oldie takes is one less for a youngster.
Therefore the state then carries the burden of the younger people.
 
The Government is too keen on supporting employers who only offer 'zero hour' contracts, which are no use for the main breadwinner in a household. Also, if more employers paid a 'living' wage there would be less need for households to supplement their income by claiming benefits.

As far as the triple lock on state pensions is concerned, 2.5% of not very much is not very much.........
 
I am approaching retirement age, I will be 65 in Feb 2020, or I would be if the Govt hadnt upped it and my wife would have retired 2 years ago, until they upped hers too. We have worked all our lives, even when I was unemployed I didn't/couldnt claim any benefits, partly because I had savings and partly because of my occupational status (Director of my own Co.).
I am aware that the money I/we have paid in during our working life was actually paying for the pensioners at that time, which I view as fair and reasonable but there has never been a fund, from day 1 those in work paid for those retired.
As has already been posted, people these days live longer, so of course it's harder to fund, something that hasn't been mentioned though is that the UK pension is equivalent to about 30% of the average in-work wage, massively lower than any other State Pension in any developed country. So how can these other countries afford such high pension? Where has all our money gone, why are we so inefficient? Do we have a much higher population of retired people to working people?
The other thing of course is the tax burden OAP suffer, I have mentioned this before and I'll do it again, the State Pension you receive is added to any other money you have coming in and taxed accordingly. So as an example if you have £8800 State Pension plus a work-place pension or private pension of some description of say £15200 to give you an average wage pension amount, then £14000 or thereabouts is taxable, about £2800 in tax (although no NI deductions, at present). In effect the State Pension is therefore reduced to £6000 or 25% of the national average in-work salary, is that fair, we tax our pensioners?
 
The problem is the current system of state pension is no longer(to use a phrase I dislike, though I can't find a better one) fit for purpose. I can understand how it was developed but we need to change it.

We should not have a system where the current state pensions are paid for from the National Insurance contributions of those who are working now. Rather the NI contributons you pay while you are working should provide your pension, ie like a private pension but run by the state.

It would take years, I'd estimate about 50, to move from the current system but given an increasing aging population, and I'm one of them, we can't keep the current system without an increase the level of NI contribution or doing what IDS is suggesting. Something has got to change

I'm not supporting IDS's suggestion. I think it is appalling. There are lots of jobs that quite a few aged 70 or 75 would not be able to manage; wonder if IDS has thought of that.

Dave
 
soupdragon said:
Having paid into the system all my life it now transpires the government don't want to give me my savings back.

My not so good friend Ian Duncan Smith is proposing raising state retirement age to 70 in 9 years time and then 75 shortly after.
This is particularly galling for me as I reach my current retirement age (67) in ten years time.
If these plans go through I'll be lucky to make retirement.

It begs the question, was there any point in being a productive member of society in the first place?

If the Government stopped wasting my money on pointless aid projects and vast benefits for swathes of people who "Just don't want to work" I'd be able to enjoy what I paid for.

I can't be the only person born in 1962 that isn't irate about the situation.
Click to expand...
My suggestion is that you should “always look on the bright side of life”. If you’d been born earlier in, say 1895 like my grandfather you could have been gassed and shell-shocked in WW1 and retired at 65 and died a year later. Or in 1915 like my father and served in the Royal Artillery through WW2, retired at 65 and died at 81. Or me in 1936 and have 2 years taken out by National Service, retired at 55 and currently still here, just about :D and looking on the bright side of life. My youngest brother just missed National Service and went on a round the world trip which stood him in good stead in many ways.
What were you complaining about again ...?
 
Nothing to do with retirement age, but how much you qualify for, but in the last week or so I was reading about a man who doesn't get the full state pension. I can't remember if he was always self employed, or for just a period during his working life, but he used to buy his national insurance stamp each week. At some point they didn't have a book or card for him to stick his stamps to. But he still continued to collect them weekly
When he retired he submitted them all to claim his pension, but they wouldn't honour the stamps that were loose and as a result won't pay him his full pension. Sounds to me like there is a jobsworth somewhere that needs a kick up the pants.
 
I've been discussing this on another forum, and my comment was,
The oldies continue to work leaving no jobs for the youngsters to drop into from school / college / uni.
They, the supposedly fit and healthy end up on job seekers allowance, instead of paying that out as pension that some of us have paid into for 50 odd years,
( and rising) We don't want to continue to work till we drop.
We want to enjoy our well earned retirement years while we are still reasonably healthy.
 
Cobra said:
I've been discussing this on another forum, and my comment was,
The oldies continue to work leaving no jobs for the youngsters to drop into from school / college / uni.
They, the supposedly fit and healthy end up on job seekers allowance, instead of paying that out as pension that some of us have paid into for 50 odd years,
( and rising) We don't want to continue to work till we drop.
We want to enjoy our well earned retirement years while we are still reasonably healthy.
Click to expand...

Which is what personal pensions are all about! If you want to retire at 55 on a nice pot, you can, if you have been careful and put every spare penny into a pension fund.
 
cambsno said:
If you want to retire at 55 on a nice pot, you can,
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Not anymore I can't I've past that :p
But that's not the point all these ( including me, and yes I do also have a PP) would have paid in for 50 plus years and get very little back, especially as the
retirement age is getting higher and higher.
 
cambsno said:
Which is what personal pensions are all about! If you want to retire at 55 on a nice pot, you can, if you have been careful and put every spare penny into a pension fund.
Click to expand...

I retired at 55 and planned that my "nice pot" would give us enough to live on (with savings) until the state pension kicks in at 67 (both the wife and me were born in 62) I will be in sh@t street if my state pension age goes up.
 
sphexx said:
My suggestion is that you should “always look on the bright side of life”. If you’d been born earlier in, say 1895 like my grandfather you could have been gassed and shell-shocked in WW1 and retired at 65 and died a year later. Or in 1915 like my father and served in the Royal Artillery through WW2, retired at 65 and died at 81. Or me in 1936 and have 2 years taken out by National Service, retired at 55 and currently still here, just about :D and looking on the bright side of life. My youngest brother just missed National Service and went on a round the world trip which stood him in good stead in many ways.
What were you complaining about again ...?
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I was looking on the bright side of life before the humungous bell end IBS decided that I should die before I clamed from a system that I paid into.
Where do these un-accountable toss pots get off regarding who gets to have a reasonable retirement and who does not.
re the government
 
How is it that anyone can pay into a system (under obligation) only to be told they will get nothing back for it ok?
It really is the work of the devil.
 
Steve Smith said:
My view is that when you start paying tax and National Insurance, you have entered into a contract. Under English law, the terms and conditionss of a contract cannot be changed after entering into it, unless agreed by both parties.
Therefore, this is a breach of contract.
However, they are the government, so good luck with that court case!


Steve.
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It's not a contract though, not under English & Welsh law, nor any other.
 
I retired at just under 55, will be 61 this year and no state pension until i'm 66
Always treated the state pension as a nice bonus, never banked on it and glad I didn't.
 
soupdragon said:
How is it that anyone can pay into a system (under obligation) only to be told they will get nothing back for it ok?
It really is the work of the devil.
Click to expand...

You don't. There is no savings pot
 
I'm fortunate to be young enough now that by the time I reach whatever the retirement age will be at that point I will likely already be dead. Saves all this worry about pensions.
 
soupdragon said:
How is it that anyone can pay into a system (under obligation) only to be told they will get nothing back for it ok?
It really is the work of the devil.
Click to expand...

There isn’t. You simply pay tax for all sorts of things and at the moment the government pays pensions to some people. They could cancel pensions tomorrow if they wanted too.
 
The UK State Pension is the worst in the developed world, according to OECD data. It pays out just 29% of average earnings, compared to 100.6% in the Netherlands, 94% in Portugal and 93.2% in Italy.

What do other countries do differently so they can afford to treat their pensioners with respect rather than shafting them up the arse?
 
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