'Upgrade' to full frame? And which camera?

[Deleted member 49428]

Except RP sucks in comparison to A7III on many levels and the lenses you mentioned are a bit old and aren't optically as good as the Sony ones.

The RP is only, if even that, a tie with the Fuji X-T3. The idea that FF in all incarnations will outperform modern apsc cameras is just wrong . You might end Up with the shallower DOF as the only benefit loosing out in every other aspect if choosing one of the older sensor generations.

 

[nandbytes]

Not really, its much nicer to hold, better screen, better colour, better touch screen, better adapted. Where it struggles is FPS and base DR on the Sony is better and the eye AF is good but not as good as the Sony. Pros and cons.

The STM is probably as good as the Sony option at half the price. The 85 isnt as good.

The point is, there are options at various price points, I would never buy an A7ii over an RP because the RP is much better at the same pricepoint. The OP should decide a budget and buy at that pricepoint.

actually A7RII seems to be at the same price point as RP. And its a better body than RP imo.
There is a reason

 

[twist]

actually A7RII seems to be at the same price point as RP. And its a better body than RP imo.
There is a reason

Really? Where can you buy a brand new A7rii body for £750.

 

[nandbytes]

The RP is only, if even that, a tie with the Fuji X-T3. The ideal that FF in all incarnations will outperform modern apsc cameras is just wrong . You might end Up with the shallower DOF as the only benefit loosing out in every other aspect if choosing one of the older sensor generations.

I pretty much choose any body out there over the RP. Heck i'd rather go m43 lol.
Its the worst FF ever (closely followed by Sony A7ii) imo.

 

[nandbytes]

Really? Where can you buy a brand new A7rii body for £750.

That's my comparison for price point.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/canon-eos-rp-digital-camera-body-with-ef-adapter-1690758/
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/sony-alpha-a7r-mark-ii-digital-camera-body-1575237/

if used RPs are selling at a considerably lower price than used A7RII when new they are about the same, that shows how well the RP hold value

 

[twist]

That's my comparison for price point.
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/canon-eos-rp-digital-camera-body-with-ef-adapter-1690758/
https://www.wexphotovideo.com/sony-alpha-a7r-mark-ii-digital-camera-body-1575237/

if used RPs are selling at a considerably lower price than used A7RII when new they are about the same, that shows how well the RP hold value

Ah so you choose to pricepoint UK prices as it suits you.

The cheapest A7rii is £1040 vs £770 for an RP.

 

[twist]

The RP is only, if even that, a tie with the Fuji X-T3. The idea that FF in all incarnations will outperform modern apsc cameras is just wrong . You might end Up with the shallower DOF as the only benefit loosing out in every other aspect if choosing one of the older sensor generations.

Taking only sensor DR into account. Are you ignoring ISO and the benefit of a bayer sensor over x trans? DOF is quite a big one for a lot of people, it means youre stuck buying Fujis very expensive (slow AF) fast primes because there are no other options, by the time youve done that you are well in FF territory.

 

[nandbytes]

Ah so you choose to pricepoint UK prices as it suits you.

The cheapest A7rii is £1040 vs £770 for an RP.

I always compare new UK prices in UK shops as the baseline just as any reviewer would.
Not the price your mate Bob and Dave are selling them for at the street corner.

 

[AZ6]

Except RP sucks in comparison to A7III on many levels and the lenses you mentioned are a bit old and aren't optically as good as the Sony ones.

Here we go...

 

[twist]

I always compare new UK prices as the baseline just as any reviewer would.
Not the price your mate Bob and Dave are selling them for at the street corner.

Just as any reviewer would? Yeah, all the greats buy gear from the UK

Bob and Dave are maybe your reviewer pals, try Einfinity and HDEW, two of the biggest grey sellers and also most well regarded, which you already knew.

 

[snerkler]

Not really, its much nicer to hold, better screen, better colour, better touch screen, better adapted. Where it struggles is FPS and base DR on the Sony is better and the eye AF is good but not as good as the Sony. Pros and cons.

The STM is probably as good as the Sony option at half the price. The 85 isnt as good.

The point is, there are options at various price points, I would never buy an A7ii over an RP because the RP is much better at the same/very similar pricepoint. The OP should decide a budget and buy at that pricepoint.

Yep, you need gen 4 Sony (or A9-II) to get more Canikon type ergonomics. You can of course adapt Canon glass to Sony but I would imagine it’s not as good as EF to RF mount.

I don’t like using adapted though, one of the reasons I got rid of the Z tbh.

 

[nandbytes]

Just as any reviewer would? Yeah, all the greats buy gear from the UK

Bob and Dave are maybe your reviewer pals, try Einfinity and HDEW, two of the biggest grey sellers and also most well regarded, which you already knew.

Whether they buy from UK or not they certainly wouldn't be tax dodging and breaking the law.

 

[twist]

Whether they buy from UK or not they certainly wouldn't be tax dodging and breaking the law.

The prices are the prices, the RP can be found cheaper. People are free to buy from where they please, dont change the subject.

 

[twist]

Yep, you need gen 4 Sony (or A9-II) to get more Canikon type ergonomics. You can of course adapt Canon glass to Sony but I would imagine it’s not as good as EF to RF mount.

I don’t like using adapted though, one of the reasons I got rid of the Z tbh.

Lots of people will or wont, I used the ARTs on Sony so for me there is no difference. Its the only way Canikon could satisfy existing customers till they developed enough lenses... just like Sony did back in the day.

 

[nandbytes]

The prices are the prices, the RP can be found cheaper. People are free to buy from where they please, dont change the subject.

its free to just steal them. So the price point is the same for all cameras.

 

[AZ6]

Pointless bickering about comparative sizes of dads aside;

I personally wouldn't choose the Canon RP (or even R) over a Sony (or Nikon!), chiefly because if the lack of In Body Image Stabilisation (IBIS). I've found this to be an invaluable feature for my photography. I shoot a lot in low light, and IBIS is a Godsend. With the Canons, you're limited to relying on IS in the lens alone, and whilst this can be very good, it isn't quite as good as IBIS IMO, and not all lenses have it (I think the RF lenses do, but not a lot of older EF mount lenses). That might not matter to a lot of photographers though.

I still think looking beyond Sony is a bit daft, unless you are already invested in another system/want to continue with that same brand. They have a mature product range that CaNikon don't, and proven tech that the others are having to catch up with (eye AF). Give it a few years mind, and the whole situation might be different. Canon or Nikon may rule the roost by then. Who knows? But I had a good look round at ML cameras before I bought my Z6, just to see if I was making the right decision, and only Sony would have tempted me away.

That said; I LOVE my Z6, am very happy with it, and know I've not made the 'wrong' decision. It works for me.

I don’t like using adapted though, one of the reasons I got rid of the Z tbh.

I've found using adapted lenses to be absolutely fine. The only niggle is no AF with older mechanical AF lenses. That's a shame. But with the 24-120, the 70-200 and others I've tried, performance is spot on. Manual focussing with old MF lenses is in some ways, better than I remember it was on my old film kit, cos of focus peaking highlights and being able to digitally zoom right in to check critical focus. But I know I can happily buy a lot of F mount lenses and they will fork fine on both my digital Nikons.

 

[twist]

its free to just steal them. So the price point is the same for all cameras.

Its cheaper, and spec wise its cheaper than others for a few reasons, get over it.

 

[imattersuk]

It's all about opinions.....not a fan of Rockwell but this is quite an informative article.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/nikon-vs-canon-vs-sony-full-frame.htm

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Taking only sensor DR into account. Are you ignoring ISO and the benefit of a bayer sensor over x trans? DOF is quite a big one for a lot of people, it means youre stuck buying Fujis very expensive (slow AF) fast primes because there are no other options, by the time youve done that you are well in FF territory.

Well the RP needs you to expose very correct, the X-T3 saves your butt if you dont get exposure right.
Very shallow DOF is the lifeline for people who dont know composition and visual design
No seriously I think it's over emphasized and not really as important as it's talked Up to be. The f/1,4 primes are not that slow on the X-T3, you can get stuff like Viltrox and you dont need an adapter to get reasonably priced lenses at all. The RP may be low priced but most lenses are premium priced, there are 3 lenses <1000$ the rest are well above if you dont want to use the adapter. If having L Glass the choice makes sense but building the system from scratch with ef lenses changing to rf glass when they becomes affordable is silly.

 

[AZ6]

It's all about opinions.....not a fan of Rockwell but this is quite an informative article.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/nikon-vs-canon-vs-sony-full-frame.htm

Hmm. I found it to be misinformed, biased, opinionated and misleading really.

Bit like a lot of Ken's stuff then!

 

[twist]

Pointless bickering about comparative sizes of dads aside;

I personally wouldn't choose the Canon RP (or even R) over a Sony (or Nikon!), chiefly because if the lack of In Body Image Stabilisation (IBIS). I've found this to be an invaluable feature for my photography. I shoot a lot in low light, and IBIS is a Godsend. With the Canons, you're limited to relying on IS in the lens alone, and whilst this can be very good, it isn't quite as good as IBIS IMO, and not all lenses have it (I think the RF lenses do, but not a lot of older EF mount lenses). That might not matter to a lot of photographers though.

I still think looking beyond Sony is a bit daft, unless you are already invested in another system/want to continue with that same brand. They have a mature product range that CaNikon don't, and proven tech that the others are having to catch up with (eye AF). Give it a few years mind, and the whole situation might be different. Canon or Nikon may rule the roost by then. Who knows? But I had a good look round at ML cameras before I bought my Z6, just to see if I was making the right decision, and only Sony would have tempted me away.

That said; I LOVE my Z6, am very happy with it, and know I've not made the 'wrong' decision. It works for me.

The main thing is that whatever someone owns, they enjoy it, my A9 had the best AF Ive ever used and silent shooting at 20fps, does that mean Im not enjoying using the RP, no.

 

[nandbytes]

It's all about opinions.....not a fan of Rockwell but this is quite an informative article.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/nikon-vs-canon-vs-sony-full-frame.htm

and another that dpreview put out recently... includes panasonic too unlike Rockwell
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8...rrorless-compared-z6-vs-s1-vs-eos-r-vs-a7-iii

and one more from yesterday on lenses:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6...panasonic-and-sony-full-frame-options-compare

Looks like they are on a comparison stint... there might be more

 

[imattersuk]

Hmm. I found it to be misinformed, biased, opinionated and misleading really.

Bit like a lot of Ken's stuff then!

You would because you 're a Nikon fanboy

He hates Fuji, I love Fuji but I don't hold that against him the "donate so I can buy my kids food" mung

He does raise some valid points in my opinion.

 

[twist]

Well the RP needs you to expose very correct, the X-T3 saves your butt if you dont get exposure right.
Very shallow DOF is the lifeline for people who dont know composition and visual design
No seriously I think it's over emphasized and not really as important as it's talked Up to be. The f/1,4 primes are not that slow on the X-T3, you can get stuff like Viltrox and you dont need an adapter to get reasonably priced lenses at all. The RP may be low priced but most lenses are premium priced, there are 3 lenses <1000$ the rest are well above if you dont want to use the adapter. If having L Glass the choice makes sense but building the system from scratch with ef lenses changing to rf glass when they becomes affordable is silly.

Ive screwed up a few times with the RP and so far been able to recover as much as I need to with the RP at base, after that it evens out, more is better but Ive been okay so far.

Must be why all people photographers are shooting at F11 and does that mean people need extra DR as a lifeline because they cant expose properly (no)?

Thats what I said though, RF is lacking and expensive. EF is not and that is a plus point for Canon, lots of choice at cheap prices (lenses like the 135mm f2 @ £400 used, 400mm 5.6 is like £500-600 etc) the RP adapted is a cheap FF option when adapting.

 

[AZ6]

You would because you 're a Nikon fanboy

He hates Fuji, I love Fuji but I don't hold that against him the "donate so I can buy my kids food" mung

He does raise some valid points in my opinion.

Most of his stuff is just plagiarised from other sources; he does very little genuine reviewing of stuff. He has 'reviews' (including opinions) of stuff he's never even touched, such as lenses that haven't even been released yet. He can be informative at times, true, but a lot of the time, it's just attention seeking clickbaity type guff. That's his schtick. He's out to make money, pure and simple. But I learned early on not to pay him too much attention. In that 'review' you linked to; he makes up 'categories' for his own preferences, ignores other stuff people might find important, and has a fair few glaring errors, as well as giving his opinion quite a lot. Most of it is really just about his opinion. it's not a very objective comparison. I wonder if he even had all 5 cameras in his hands at all, I doubt it. But at the end of the day; all these cameras will take excellent, amazing photos. The only limit really, is your own talent.

I may be a Nikonite, but I can at least appreciate what other brands are doing. Notice how I've bigged up Sony on this thread? See? It's about giving people the information THEY need, not what you WANT to. That's what's really helpful. Nothing wrong with personal experience/opinions, but always keep an objective eye out.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Ive screwed up a few times with the RP and so far been able to recover as much as I need to with the RP at base, after that it evens out, more is better but Ive been okay so far.

Must be why all people photographers are shooting at F11 and does that mean people need extra DR as a lifeline because they cant expose properly (no)?

Thats what I said though, RF is lacking and expensive. EF is not and that is a plus point for Canon, lots of choice at cheap prices (lenses like the 135mm f2 @ £400 used, 400mm 5.6 is like £500-600 etc) the RP adapted is a cheap FF option when adapting.

And my point was the old sensor in the RP is lacking compared to modern apsc cameras like the X-T3 or to make comparison possible the D7500(take a look at DXO). You end Up with DOF as the only argument for the RP against anything else. So what Im trying to say is if full frame is the thing go all in and shed out for the R, the 7(R)III or the Z6(7).

 

[nandbytes]

So what Im trying to say is if full frame is the thing go all in and shed out for the R, the 7(R)III or the Z6(7).

 

[twist]

And my point was the old sensor in the RP is lacking compared to modern apsc cameras like the X-T3 or to make comparison possible the D7500. You end Up with DOF as the only argument for the RP against anything else. So what In trying to say is if full frame is the thing go all in and shed out for the R, the 7(R)III or the Z6(7).

Did you miss the bit about ISO and its not an X trans? So no, DOF is not the only argument. And the other point is that a sensor does not make a system and is not the most important thing when buying a camera, it all works together. Sony is the most rounded system for MILC and they still lead in terms of sensor dev, how could they not, but there are options at all budgets (esp when the OP seems undecided about their budget).

 

[LeeRatters]

I wouldn't bother with the A7ii. You'd be better off with the A7iii and kit lens than the ii with the f/2.8 Tamron imo especially if you aren't shooting a big apertures.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Did you miss the bit about ISO and its not an X trans? So no, DOF is not the only argument. And the other point is that a sensor does not make a system and is not the most important thing when buying a camera.

Whats wrong with xtrans? ISO ? No what about it? Looking at DXO (No Fuji data) the D7500 compared pretty well against the RP and the A7III sweeps the floor with both the others. Im not against people wanting full frame for the full frame look which is the OP question here. I just dont find the RP with it's dated sensor to be the answer just because it's cheap. As for buying into a system thats a whole other nest of wasps.

 

[twist]

Whats wrong with xtrans? ISO ? No what about it? Looking at DXO (No Fuji data) the D7500 compared pretty well against the RP and the A7III sweeps the floor with both the others. Im not against people wanting full frame for the full frame look which is the OP question here. I just dont find the RP with it's dated sensor to be the answer just because it's cheap. As for buying into a system thats a whole other nest of wasps.

Perhaps you should look at all the information, especially when you quote a source. Dont just look at dynamic range, its not the only factor thats important when it comes to sensor performance. X trans and the processing of its files is a nest of wasps.

 

[snerkler]

Lots of people will or wont, I used the ARTs on Sony so for me there is no difference. Its the only way Canikon could satisfy existing customers till they developed enough lenses... just like Sony did back in the day.

Yep, was just stating my preference and appreciate others have different views

I've found using adapted lenses to be absolutely fine. The only niggle is no AF with older mechanical AF lenses. That's a shame. But with the 24-120, the 70-200 and others I've tried, performance is spot on. Manual focussing with old MF lenses is in some ways, better than I remember it was on my old film kit, cos of focus peaking highlights and being able to digitally zoom right in to check critical focus. But I know I can happily buy a lot of F mount lenses and they will fork fine on both my digital Nikons.

My biggest issue with adapted lenses is throwing the weight forward, I found this particularly noticeable with the 70-200mm f2.8. Canon's adapter is not as wide so won't me 'as much' of an issue.

The other issue with the Nikon FTZ adapter is that VR is working constantly with VR lenses whether you're half pressing the shutter or not. I contacted Nikon about it and at the time they said they had no solution.

 

[twist]

Yep, was just stating my preference and appreciate others have different views
My biggest issue with adapted lenses is throwing the weight forward, I found this particularly noticeable with the 70-200mm f2.8. Canon's adapter is not as wide so won't me 'as much' of an issue.

The other issue with the Nikon FTZ adapter is that VR is working constantly with VR lenses whether you're half pressing the shutter or not. I contacted Nikon about it and at the time they said they had no solution.

Thats an odd one, did it kill your batteries faster?

 

[snerkler]

Perhaps you should look at all the information, especially when you quote a source. Dont just look at dynamic range, its not the only factor thats important when it comes to sensor performance. X trans and the processing of its files is a nest of wasps.


View attachment 277190

Another thing people forget is that not everyone uses base ISO for most of their shots, in which case the DR gap is bridged. DR's important to me for landscapes, but it's not so important for sports and portrait togs.

 

[snerkler]

Thats an odd one, did it kill your batteries faster?

I believe it did, but I didn't do any proper testing. I was more worried about wear on the VR motor tbh.

 

[twist]

I believe it did, but I didn't do any proper testing. I was more worried about wear on the VR motor tbh.

Didnt think about that. Good point.

 

[twist]

So what Im trying to say is if full frame is the thing go all in and shed out for the R, the 7(R)III or the Z6(7).

Theyre all rubbish, what he needs to buy is a Hasselblad or Fuji medium format. Because theres no budget, or is there.

 

[Deleted member 49428]

Perhaps you should look at all the information, especially when you quote a source. Dont just look at dynamic range, its not the only factor thats important when it comes to sensor performance. X trans and the processing of its files is a nest of wasps.


View attachment 277190

Processing fuji files is no problem use capture one or look up Thomas Heatons video on the subject.

 

[twist]

Processing fuji files is no problem use capture one or look up Thomas Heatons video on the subject.

I think we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[nandbytes]

Theyre all rubbish, what he needs to buy is a Hasselblad or Fuji medium format. Because theres no budget, or is there.

I have nearly bough GFX100 a couple time
stopped when I realised I will have to eat tesco value beans on toast for rest of my divorced life