Using workshop created images in camera club competitions

I guess you could modify your tour Ts and Cs to require an assist credit / share of revenue for any use of the images taken during the tour?
 
Having read most of this thread my opinion (and it is entirely my own ;-)) is that the only way to prevent people doing it is to put a clause in that completely prevents workshop images.

It's the only way to ensure that someone is not benefitting from too much instruction. If all the pre-production is done by someone else, is it any different to taking a shot and giving it to a professional retoucher/photo editor for post-production and still claiming it's all your own work?

I get that on certain workshops you're given much more freedom to create your own version of a set up, and on others the leeway is pretty small. For example, if you went on a walking tour of London with a photography guide and everyone takes a picture of Tower Bridge from a certain spot because the guide said it looked good from that angle and that time of day. But you took a shot looking the other way because you'd seen something more interesting, you'd feel hard done by if it was excluded. But maybe you'd feel even worse about it if one of the others won.

To me there's too much grey area to say "Well it's OK if..." You either allow it in its entirety with all the good and bad that comes with it. Or you ban it.

Ultimately, if people are genuinely going to clubs to learn, then they're not actually learning anything from submitting a photo that's pretty much been handed to them.
 
I'm getting a sense that what is really being objected to here is "freeloading" -i.e. not putting in the effort - rather than workshops? What if I bought a guide book or just looked at someone else's work and just recreated it?

What if I went on a workshop but the light wasn't great so I went back a few days later when the light was better?
 
sirch said:
I'm getting a sense that what is really being objected to here is "freeloading" -i.e. not putting in the effort - rather than workshops? What if I bought a guide book or just looked at someone else's work and just recreated it?

What if I went on a workshop but the light wasn't great so I went back a few days later when the light was better?
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Well, certainly the place where my objection comes from is that I had been there previously to do the recce. You simply can't go back without the necessary permits as it's a restricted area.

It's been all of my effort. Marking out on the map where the views are that provide the images. There's only one road in and out but you still have to hunt down the views as it takes a huge amount of driving to actually get to them. And I had been asked about a specific image on my website.
 
Many years ago I used to host lighting workshops on artistic nude photography. These were heavily sponsored by the lighting Company, Lencarta, who only charged £60 per person for the full day, with a maximum of 8 attendees. I gave my time free and the £60 basically paid for the model and the VAT.

On one course, a man turned up who hadn't even booked and paid for it, with his wife, who had booked and paid. He was a "professional photographer" of sorts, and a member on here. Maybe he thought I hadn't noticed that he was freeloading but, to avoid a scene, and because that particular course wasn't fully booked, I said nothing.

He was totally useless, he knew nothing about lighting and was the type who would never listen and therefore would never learn.

I later found out that he had started offering exactly the same course on his own website, illustrated with photos from my course, mostly taken from here by the people who did listen, and was asking (from memory) £700 per attendee . . .

Annoying, but inevitably that page soon disappeared from his website. Annoying though it is, nothing can ever be done about these people and it's usually best just to ignore them.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Annoying, but inevitably that page soon disappeared from his website. Annoying though it is, nothing can ever be done about these people and it's usually best just to ignore them.
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Have you ever used the Wayback Machine? Sounds like a clear case of copyright infringement to me...
 
Julian Elliott said:
Have you ever used the Wayback Machine? Sounds like a clear case of copyright infringement to me...
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I pity people like this, and really can't be bothered. And anyway, what's the point? from memory he was a minimum-pay unskilled worker in his day job and probably earned even less in his "professional photographer" role, so wouldn't be worth suing.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I pity people like this, and really can't be bothered. And anyway, what's the point? from memory he was a minimum-pay unskilled worker in his day job and probably earned even less in his "professional photographer" role, so wouldn't be worth suing.
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Absolutely fair enough but if you needed to then the Wayback machine is an invaluable tool.
 
Julian Elliott said:
Thanks for the support @Dave Canon

I've never had anyone like that before. Hopefully won't have again.

It is definitely a problem. I suppose what irks me is how she is saying how wonderful Nepal was etc but the person who enabled it gets nothing in return. She's making out that she's done all the work in getting the imagery when it is nowhere near the truth. I also speak to my friend and guide in Upper Mustang. He told me a couple of weeks ago how she had been regularly messaging his asking for information. I was NOT happy!

Ideally, and I've had this at all other times, is that you have people who want to learn. Earlier this year I had a group in Glencoe. They went away extremely happy as even though it rained the entire length of the tour they went away with some great stuff.
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I have just remembered that you gave a lecture at my club in early January which included Nepal and was very well received. Also the group who went to Glencoe definitely included several from my Club and, while they joked about the weather, they were well pleased with what had been achieved.

Dave
 
Dave Canon said:
I have just remembered that you gave a lecture at my club in early January which included Nepal and was very well received. Also the group who went to Glencoe definitely included several from my Club and, while they joked about the weather, they were well pleased with what had been achieved.

Dave
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Are you in Cheltenham? That's where most came from.
 
If you have to use a workshop image to enter in a comp then it probably suggests you had nothing better to enter which you took yourself at another time in which case that suggests you'd been better practicing ABIT more for your competitions ...so no you absolutely shouldn't be using them
 
I won a major competition with an image I took on a workshop...and I make absolutely no apologies for doing so :exit:
 
gregww1 said:
I won a major competition with an image I took on a workshop...and I make absolutely no apologies for doing so :exit:
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Without context a comment like this is just a hand-grenade thrown in to the thread.
 
I’ve also won a competition using an image taken at an event workshop. However, in this case the workshop organizer loved the image and recommended that I should enter the competition. It was a slow pan of some of the action and not something taught on the workshop or setup in advance.
 
Kell said:
Without context a comment like this is just a hand-grenade thrown in to the thread.
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Possibly but @gregww1 has integrity as far as I know of him. The person who was on my tour has zero.

What's frustrating for me is that, yes it's nice to see someone who took images on my tour get stuff into a competition, but it would be nice when they are saying to people how amazing it is over in Nepal just who it was that actually did all the hard work to get them in the right place at the right time.

To have someone say that my work was uninspiring yet put images in that look near to mine is frustrating as it makes me wonder exactly what said person's goal was.

And if you're curious about the images then keep an eye on my Instagram as I'm starting to post stuff as they've been registered in the US Copyright Office.

PS forgot. An old Chinese saying. If you’re prepared to drink the water you must remember the source.
 
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I don't know what the workshop involved - tuition etc? - but it might be that the photographer concerned saw the "workshop" as a photo tour which you (Julian) had organised and took money for guiding people on. That might shed a slightly different light on it.

But she sounds like a real PITA so maybe the best thing is to try and forget about it. It won't do YOU any good to keep on being upset about it.
 
Julian Elliott said:
Possibly but @gregww1 has integrity as far as I know of him. The person who was on my tour has zero.

What's frustrating for me is that, yes it's nice to see someone who took images on my tour get stuff into a competition, but it would be nice when they are saying to people how amazing it is over in Nepal just who it was that actually did all the hard work to get them in the right place at the right time.

To have someone say that my work was uninspiring yet put images in that look near to mine is frustrating as it makes me wonder exactly what said person's goal was.

And if you're curious about the images then keep an eye on my Instagram as I'm starting to post stuff as they've been registered in the US Copyright Office.

PS forgot. An old Chinese saying. If you’re prepared to drink the water you must remember the source.
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It was more a case of most people have said it's a grey area. So to just make a claim about using an image without either saying: I was told exactly what to do, where to stand and what to press or yes it was taken on a workshop, but the workshop was really free and we weren't given any guidance seems to me to be being deliberately obtuse in order to stir things up.

In your example - would it have made any difference to how you feel about her photo if she hadn't been an arse?
 
jerry12953 said:
I don't know what the workshop involved - tuition etc? - but it might be that the photographer concerned saw the "workshop" as a photo tour which you (Julian) had organised and took money for guiding people on. That might shed a slightly different light on it.

But she sounds like a real PITA so maybe the best thing is to try and forget about it. It won't do YOU any good to keep on being upset about it.
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She is definitely the definition of a PITA!!! Absolutely trying to forget the experience but when you have cr@p like that for nearly 3 weeks it gets a little ingrained.

Personally, I’m doing something about it which will hopefully bear fruit in the coming months
 
Kell said:
Without context a comment like this is just a hand-grenade thrown in to the thread.
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Ok, to provide context, I made no secret of the fact the image was taken on a workshop, before or after the win...though not really a workshop in the traditional sense of tuition, that wasn't needed or asked for (though was available if requested), more of a guided expedition. The leader had not been to the location before, but had put the work in to identify its potential using various tools including google earth. It was a location that to our knowledge had not been visited before by landscape photographers, so massive kudos to the leader for that (and I haven't seen any photos from there since either). Of the 4 people on the workshop, including the leader, only 2 of us were in position prior to when the magic moment happened. The leader arrived at that moment and the other poor guy was suffering from a bout of the runs somewhere secluded and missed the whole thing. Image in the bag, the leaders version appeared on the cover of a significant industry publication only weeks later. I therefore had no qualms entering the competition with the image, as the composition was all mine and no advice was sought at any point. I take a line that it doesn't matter what the location is, I've seen plenty of photos from amazing locations with amazing conditions that just fail because the choice of composition (and the skill/eye of the photographer) is poor. Likewise, I've seen amazing photos from the most uninspiring locations. The quality of the photo is down to the skill of the photographer, not the location. If advice has been provided, in any way, like what to shoot, how to line up, what settings to use, etc, then in my opinion, the image doesn't wholly belong to the individual whose camera it came out of and shouldn't therefore be considered the sole work of the photographer for the purposes of competition. None of those criteria applied in my case, hence why I stand by the statement I made above.

Having said all of that, I sympathise with Julian here and appreciate the work leaders like him put in to get photographers to hard to reach locations. In his case, the individual, like me, shouldn't try to mask the circumstances the image came to be and should acknowledge the work the leader put in, publicly.
 
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gregww1 said:
Ok, to provide context, I made no secret of the fact the image was taken on a workshop, before or after the win...though not really a workshop in the traditional sense of tuition, that wasn't needed or asked for (though was available if requested), more of a guided expedition. The leader had not been to the location before, but had put the work in to identify its potential using various tools including google earth. It was a location that to our knowledge had not been visited before by landscape photographers, so massive kudos to the leader for that (and I haven't seen any photos from there since either). Of the 4 people on the workshop, including the leader, only 2 of us were in position prior to when the magic moment happened. The leader arrived at that moment and the other poor guy was suffering from a bout of the runs somewhere secluded and missed the whole thing. Image in the bag, the leaders version appeared on the cover of a significant industry publication only weeks later. I therefore had no qualms entering the competition with the image, as the composition was all mine and no advice was sought at any point. I take a line that it doesn't matter what the location is, I've seen plenty of photos from amazing locations with amazing conditions that just fail because the choice of composition (and the skill/eye of the photographer) is poor. Likewise, I've seen amazing photos from the most uninspiring locations. The quality of the photo is down to the skill of the photographer, not the location. If advice has been provided, in any way, like what to shoot, how to line up, what settings to use, etc, then in my opinion, the image doesn't wholly belong to the individual whose camera it came out of and shouldn't therefore be considered the sole work of the photographer for the purposes of competition. None of those criteria applied in my case, hence why I stand by the statement I made above.

Having said all of that, I sympathise with Julian here and appreciate the work leaders like him put in to get photographers to hard to reach locations. In his case, the individual, like me, shouldn't try to mask the circumstances the image came to be and should acknowledge the work the leader put in, publicly.
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And this is why I have respect for Mr Whitton. He hits all and sundry on the head.

Personally, I’m sat on a plane waiting to go to Vietnam for the third time this year. More research plus a tour to run.

As they say In Vietnam, hen gap lại!

I can never access this forum over there so stay safe folks.
 
Julian Elliott said:
Personally, I’m sat on a plane waiting to go to Vietnam for the third time this year. More research plus a tour to run.

As they say In Vietnam, hen gap lại!

I can never access this forum over there so stay safe folks.
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Enjoy sir, I know that is your 'happy place' so to speak, I hope you have a great time!
 
Many Camera clubs have evenings where a studio is setup and members only have to bring camera equiptment. As far a i know these images can be used in compititions . Ao i cant see rhe difference if the photographer sets the camera up themselves. Even if they use recomended settings
 
gregww1 said:
... If advice has been provided, in any way, like what to shoot, how to line up, what settings to use, etc, then in my opinion, the image doesn't wholly belong to the individual whose camera it came out of and shouldn't therefore be considered the sole work of the photographer for the purposes of competition. ...
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I think it depends on the degree of advice - to my mind there's a big difference between "Consider the rule of thirds when deciding on your composition", and "This path can be used as a great leading line, with the far tree as a point of focus, and the two people walking down it in silhouette".
 
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