Using workshop created images in camera club competitions

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#81
From my experience of some camera club members, nothing much would surprise me. My last experience was while visiting a country show a few years ago. I'd obtained permission from the organiser to take some photos in the horticulture marquee 10 mins before judging finished and it was opened to the public. A local camera club were also taking photos at the show.

As I waited outside the tent for the agreed time to arrive I happened to meet and have a chat with a couple of the camera club members (we'd spotted each others cameras and you know how it goes!) and they seemed perfectly nice, friendly, people. The allotted time eventually arrived and I entered the tent. I'd walked about a third of the way along one of the isles and was confronted by a chap with a camera round his neck, who was probably in his late 50s and accompanied by a lady (also sporting a camera) who I took to be his wife/partner. "Who are you?" he demanded!

Now, I'd lived in that area some years previously and knew what some of the residents could be like (given half a chance), so I wasn't surprised by the way I'd been spoken to in the slightest, and I thought I'd have a bit of fun! I walked quickly up to him, put out my hand to shake his and replied with a smile "I'm ****** *******, and you are....?", said in such a way as to make him think that he should have heard of me, and that I was now questioning him as to who he was!

He stood there nonplussed for a moment, wondering what to do next, but before he could respond his companion sprung into action. "Oh, it's alright dear... I saw this gentleman outside earlier, and he was talking to our Chairman."!

The chap seemed to cough slightly, then moved out of the way and wandered off without a word. How I kept a straight face I'll never know; it reminded me of a support scene from Midsomer Murders, absolutely priceless! I know camera clubs are bound to differ, as do people, but it does make me wonder.
 
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#83
They didn't 'buy' their photo though. They paid for the experience, yes, and for the tutors knowledge, of course, but to say they bought a photo is a bit much. I run landscape workshops, yet I have never once told someone to take an image a certain way. I guide them to a location, they listen to what I have to say about composition of course (and everything else that goes along with a workshop depending on their level of experience) they're paying me for that, however, I personally never tell them to use X,Y,Z, because although I've taken them to a location and helped them understand composition, I really do like them to make their own image from the locations I take them to, and then I'll give them my input on what they create.

So to say that because someone was on a workshop means that the image is nothing at all to do with their own work, from my personal point of view (maybe other workshop leaders do do all of the work, I wouldn't know) and the way I run my workshops, it certainly isn't the case.

I can see why people like to get feedback to judge how they're coming along in their journey, so can see that side of it I guess...but then does that feedback turn into something that you're creating to please a judge rather than yourself? Another can of worms for sure.

Thanks for the compliments, much appreciated.
I do it the other way - I pretty much guide them through the composition, whats hot and what's not, the exposure settings, (unless they are confident and even then....), the timing (ripples in water etc) - the advisable shutter speeds for waterfalls, and if they struggle with composition help them set that up also if its out, or something at the edge is cut off slightly - I call it "border patrol" and it's a big thing in my workshops. Filter placement is also advised as is the exposure in terms of R G and B values.

So yeah I can see the OP's argument. If you pay for tuition either you need it, or want to emulate the person teaching you. On a workshop the attendee is really getting a lot of guidance they wouldn't have on their own. I agree therefore with the sentiment that pictures on workshops where hands on camera craft tuition is given, rather than location guidance really is stretching it competition entries.
 
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#84
This makes no sense.
As it followed this

So YOU took a different approach to MOST whilst at the workshop. So MOST of the attendees at the workshop, didn’t.
The workshop discussed the animals, how they react, and (obviously) their lust for food. The chap running did say "almost any lens will do", but they were all stuck to their 70-200's when I'd worked out that the Fox would be just a few metres from me, so I could lay on the ground and shoot with a wide angle. The has spoken about light, and movement (which I was already confident about) I was just there to be able to get inside the enclosures.

My point is, you don't have to come away from workshops with manufactured images. You are allowed to think for yourself.
 
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#85
Only in your own mind! :LOL:

I've been to a couple of 'workshops' ... in essence they were opportunities to be at a place where I could photograph certain wildlife that it would otherwise have been very difficult for me to have photographed on my own, (time & opportunity).
For example, on one 'workshop' I was able to photograph a Snowy Owl out in the open ... I wouldn't even have known where to look to get this opportunity on my own ... I had no 'technical assistance' but I couldn't have got the photos without the help in having the owl available in the first place.
On another 'workshop' I had the opportunity to access some private land to photograph Kingfishers, at the time I had no idea where to locate such birds or the time in which to do so ... again I had no 'technical assistance' but I couldn't (at the time) have got the photos without help in having access to that site known to be frequented by Kingfishers.

I am guessing that these are not the type of 'workshops' that concern you?
Similarly thatyou would be happy with these type of experiences, if for no other reason than no photos were entered for any competitions?

Personally I have no time for the view that a photo is only of value if you have had to track everything down and go back twenty times to get the right shot ... whilst some people have the time and opportunity to do that, (or they make the time and opportunity at the expense of something else), most people simply do not have the time or opportunity to do so.

Having said that, just setting up the camera to allow someone else to 'click' and get 'THE' photo, can be very distressing!
As evidenced here!
I think there is question regarding the set up nature of different wildlife ‘workshops’ as they differ from a tutor workshop. With many you are essentially paying for access. Some of these pay for access sites will mean everyone will end up with quite similar images, sometimes to the point there is a ‘shopping list’ of images to capture.

A few years back I went on a water vole photography day. It was an enjoyable day. One image I took that day was this one:

Water Vole- A Pipe Dream
by Rob Cain, on Flickr

Was there any skill by me? Not really. It had been set up for me to the point even a seat had been placed in the water and the pipe set up with the food. All I had to do was sit there and wait whilst pointing the lens towards the pipe. You could argue it’s my image because I’d chosen the shutter, aperture and ISO setting but most photographers should be able to do that and that’s not what makes the image in this case. Would I call this my image? No I wouldn’t as I didn’t work to get it. Anyone could pay to get exactly the same image. I’ve now seen this image so many times now, exactly the same image taken by many photographers. I even saw it in a national completion!

From that photography day I used what I’d learnt about water vole behaviour to return a site I’d been to previously. I made a few visits to learn more about the location. The result of the time I spent was this image:

Water Vole (2014)
by Rob Cain, on Flickr

I’m much happier with this second image, whilst it’s not as polished as the first it feels like it’s my image as I worked to get it. I also know there arent a boat load of the same image. There are only two people who have something similar. That’s because they are two of my friends who were with my taking photos with me. We have similar images but that’s only because we were lying side by side in exactly the same place at the same time. Our images are slightly different because it moved around and covered a bit of ground. Personally I’d rather take the second image under its circumstances than the first image. I’m not saying paying for access is wrong but there still has to be a point where there is work by the photographer if it’s entered into a competition.

To answer the question about whether ‘workshop’ photos should be ended into photography competitions I guess it depends on if it’s in the rules or not. Whether competition rules should be tightened up it depends on the location/type and what the competition is trying to do. If it’s a national competition I’d say the photos entered should be the work of the photographer and not set up by someone else. There shouldn’t really be any advantage by paying for access otherwise it just becomes a race of largest finances.
 
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#86
Cannot agree with this; you then must step back to the guy with the £10k lens & £6k body. Has he not "bought" his images? There is no doubt that buying better gear helps you get better images, and better gear raises the consistency of you work unless you're an absolute beginner or inept.
Expensive top draw kit helps you get better images, there is no doubt about that.
Sorry but both those comments are utter tosh.

Shot with £500 of kit (Canon 1DIII and a Sigma 15-30mm) :

STS_20190602_null_Sport_01_4.jpg
 
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#87
Sorry but both those comments are utter tosh.

Shot with £500 of kit (Canon 1DIII and a Sigma 15-30mm) :

View attachment 267267
You can read can't you?

I never said you can't take decent photos on basic gear. I said that decent gear makes getting decent photo's easier, and more consistently so. You may think I'm talking horse poo, but it's an opinion, you don't have to agree, but you do need to understand what I said.....
 
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#88
The workshop discussed the animals, how they react, and (obviously) their lust for food. The chap running did say "almost any lens will do", but they were all stuck to their 70-200's when I'd worked out that the Fox would be just a few metres from me, so I could lay on the ground and shoot with a wide angle. The has spoken about light, and movement (which I was already confident about) I was just there to be able to get inside the enclosures.

My point is, you don't have to come away from workshops with manufactured images. You are allowed to think for yourself.
Then your point was lost on your audience and irrelevant as well as being mathematically incorrect.

The OP is a discussion of people who go on workshops precisely so they can be led to a certain image - and that images taken under such close supervision aren't an accurate representation of the skill of the guy who pressed the button.
 
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#89
I think there is question regarding the set up nature of different wildlife ‘workshops’ as they differ from a tutor workshop. With many you are essentially paying for access. Some of these pay for access sites will mean everyone will end up with quite similar images, sometimes to the point there is a ‘shopping list’ of images to capture.

A few years back I went on a water vole photography day. It was an enjoyable day. One image I took that day was this one:

Water Vole- A Pipe Dream
by Rob Cain, on Flickr

Was there any skill by me? Not really. It had been set up for me to the point even a seat had been placed in the water and the pipe set up with the food. All I had to do was sit there and wait whilst pointing the lens towards the pipe. You could argue it’s my image because I’d chosen the shutter, aperture and ISO setting but most photographers should be able to do that and that’s not what makes the image in this case. Would I call this my image? No I wouldn’t as I didn’t work to get it. Anyone could pay to get exactly the same image. I’ve now seen this image so many times now, exactly the same image taken by many photographers. I even saw it in a national completion!

From that photography day I used what I’d learnt about water vole behaviour to return a site I’d been to previously. I made a few visits to learn more about the location. The result of the time I spent was this image:

Water Vole (2014)
by Rob Cain, on Flickr

I’m much happier with this second image, whilst it’s not as polished as the first it feels like it’s my image as I worked to get it. I also know there arent a boat load of the same image. There are only two people who have something similar. That’s because they are two of my friends who were with my taking photos with me. We have similar images but that’s only because we were lying side by side in exactly the same place at the same time. Our images are slightly different because it moved around and covered a bit of ground. Personally I’d rather take the second image under its circumstances than the first image. I’m not saying paying for access is wrong but there still has to be a point where there is work by the photographer if it’s entered into a competition.

To answer the question about whether ‘workshop’ photos should be ended into photography competitions I guess it depends on if it’s in the rules or not. Whether competition rules should be tightened up it depends on the location/type and what the competition is trying to do. If it’s a national competition I’d say the photos entered should be the work of the photographer and not set up by someone else. There shouldn’t really be any advantage by paying for access otherwise it just becomes a race of largest finances.

Personally I would have really enjoyed the Water Vole workshop, as I am sure you did.
However it would never have occered to me to enter the photos into a competition ... that having been said, if the rules did not preclude it then there would be no reason not to.
 
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#90
You can read can't you?

I never said you can't take decent photos on basic gear. I said that decent gear makes getting decent photo's easier, and more consistently so. You may think I'm talking horse poo, but it's an opinion, you don't have to agree, but you do need to understand what I said.....
You appear to have fallen into the Lawrence Fox trap of believing that you are perfectly entitled to your opinion - and that it should go unchallenged (which becomes you're entitled to an opinion but no one else is).

This isn't what you posted originally BTW ;)
 
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#91
You appear to have fallen into the Lawrence Fox trap of believing that you are perfectly entitled to your opinion - and that it should go unchallenged (which becomes you're entitled to an opinion but no one else is).

This isn't what you posted originally BTW ;)
Phil, we haven't "discussed" for a while, and to be honest, I don't miss it. However, EVERYBODY is entitled to an opinion, just because yours is not the same doesn't mean it's not correct. I have an opinion, and YOU won't change it, so let's leave it at that, or I'll just put you back on the ignore list where you sat for about 6 months, I'm happy with that arrangement....
 
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#92
Meanwhile... back at the ranch:

Is the original discussion not a case of the difference between being influenced and/or inspired by a tutor or mentor, or working under someone else's direct supervision to set up and take a photograph? If so, in terms of entering the resulting photograph in a competition, is the former acceptable and the latter not? And at which point should any line be drawn between the two? If a boundary can be established, the next question would probably be; how could this threshold realistically be policed and enforced in a local club competition?
 
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simon ess

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#93
The issue for me is entirely in the wording of the rules.

An entry complies or it doesn't.

Ask Gordon Murray. :)

People will still cheat and lie of course.
 
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#94
You can read can't you?

I never said you can't take decent photos on basic gear. I said that decent gear makes getting decent photo's easier, and more consistently so. You may think I'm talking horse poo, but it's an opinion, you don't have to agree, but you do need to understand what I said.....

I absolutely can read and I absolutely understand that the words that you wrote (and I highlighted) are complete nonsense.
 
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#95
IMHO those posters questioning whether the image submission complies with the club rules or not are missing the point. The whole purpose of raising the topic is to canvass opinion as to whether there should be a rule...
 
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#96
Phil, we haven't "discussed" for a while, and to be honest, I don't miss it. However, EVERYBODY is entitled to an opinion, just because yours is not the same doesn't mean it's not correct. I have an opinion, and YOU won't change it, so let's leave it at that, or I'll just put you back on the ignore list where you sat for about 6 months, I'm happy with that arrangement....
You ok hun? xx
 
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#97
IMHO those posters questioning whether the image submission complies with the club rules or not are missing the point. The whole purpose of raising the topic is to canvass opinion as to whether there should be a rule...
Surely that's for the club to decide, not a random group of outsiders?
 
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#98
Take me to an awesome location, Provide me the most stunning model and light as beautifull as one will only see once in a lifetime................................it wont prevent me from getting a s***ty image.
Its still the photographer who must guide the model compose the image and selct the right angle in accordance to the light, background etc. choose the right moment and finish up the image and present it.
Ive never experienced the served on a plate thing on any of the workshops Ive attended and I usually try to f... up so many things trying to learn that ill never have anything to show afterwards let alone enter in a competition if I did those.
 
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#99
IMHO those posters questioning whether the image submission complies with the club rules or not are missing the point. The whole purpose of raising the topic is to canvass opinion as to whether there should be a rule...
I guess the answer to your question could be quite complex and potentially a single rule may not cover it unless you decided on a case by case basis. The reason is photography workshops, photography days and paid for hides/access can differ considerably, therefore it’s down to the club to decide what’s in or out of the rules. That could be quite hard because the range is so varied.

1/ full equipment set up and tuition ie portrait photography of a model in a studio where the leader sets up the model, lighting and provides full tuition/guidance on settings, angles etc. Landscape photography where you are taken to a location, shown how to create the right composition and what settings to use.

2/ small group club together for a studio day with a model. Studio owner sets up lights and triggers but photographers are expected to direct model, chose settings and angles.

3/ wildlife paid for access where a location is set up with everything already in place and all you have to do is wait but chose the right camera settings for the conditions. ie kingfisher diving workshop, water vole workshop,

4/ wildlife workshop where access to animal is provided but getting images is down to you to get the angles/composition and camera settings right. ie hedgehog workshop.

5/ wildlife paid for access but where you are free to create your own images and still have to work to find the subjects and/or angles camera setting etc to get something. ie access to something you couldn't normally access like a private island for hares or private location for Squirrels

6/ wildlife workshop where you are both paying for access and given some tuition. ie photography one-one day or in a small group with a pro photographer to a place like skomer island.

The issue is it’s not black and white as there are many shades of grey. Where rules are introduced people will usually find a loop hole or a way to skirt around them.
 
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Just thought I'd pop back on being as this thread is forging forwards. It's an enjoyable read ! Lots of valid points contained within.
With attending a club for some years now. My honest answer would be to leave it be as it is. Ultimately it is up to the judge on the night to score how he feels fit. As far as I'm aware non of my fellow club members have ever brought this particular question up at meetings.

Gaz
 
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I suppose it’s a bit like these fish farms that offer ‘fishing’. You still have to set up your tackle, bait your hook and cast in. Then brace yourself as a thousand fish make a dash for that bait and within seconds one will hook itself.

Still fishing right?
 
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It IS being discussed by the club. It's a current v hot topic. Hence the original post canvassing opinion.
So are you a Club Official looking for a wider ‘national’ view, or a member canvassing support for your view?
Or neither of the above?
 
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Take me to an awesome location, Provide me the most stunning model and light as beautifull as one will only see once in a lifetime................................it wont prevent me from getting a s***ty image.
Its still the photographer who must guide the model compose the image and selct the right angle in accordance to the light, background etc. choose the right moment and finish up the image and present it.
Ive never experienced the served on a plate thing on any of the workshops Ive attended and I usually try to f... up so many things trying to learn that ill never have anything to show afterwards let alone enter in a competition if I did those.
That's all true but equally so there are those that do attend workshops and expect to come away with "That" image with a view to submitting into competition.

As has been stated there is a vast spread of expectation among those that attend workshops. Ranging from someone that just wants to go to the location and do his/ her own thing right up to those that want to acquire that winning image. We are all different...
 
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HI,

I am new to this forum and a first time post. I don't have a problem with workshops I think they are great. You learn from the experts and shown the good locations and camera settings etc. What I do have a problem with is that the photographer/student then calls the photo his or her own work and puts it up for competition, and making out it is all their own work from start to finish. You should go out and take your own photos and put into practice what you have learnt.
How many more studio workshops of tropical animals, and set up King Fishers are we going to see?
At the moment Newhaven lighthouse is popular, if you have checked out the weather and best location I would say that is your photo. If it was taken on a workshop and told where to put your tripod, camera settings then I would say it was not yours.

Sorry about the rant but I do fell it is an unlevel playing field, associations like the RPA, SCPF, and SPA and others around the country should sort this problem out because it’s not going to go away.

Phil
 
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So are you a Club Official looking for a wider ‘national’ view, or a member canvassing support for your view?
Or neither of the above?
Does it matter? I started the thread looking for opinion. There have been a fair few of those offered and I'm grateful for that. I don't expect sycophantic replies and I'm happy to accept alternative views. If someone has a convincing argument either way then I'll listen to it.

However, if I may say so without being rude, your posts come across as you seeming more intent on being controversial than actually discussing the topic in question. You keep coming back to "If it's in the rules then you can't argue" etc and seem to have the opinion that I am an aggrieved lone wolf with an axe to grind because my pictures don't get top scores. Now if I've got that wrong then I apologise in advance. It can be difficult to ascertain tone from the written word alone!

The truth is far from that though. I am merely interested in listening to people's opinion on the matter. Perhaps posting here has made a few photographers think about the point and that in itself is useful. I believe that it is important to raise the subject as, without doubt, a large number of club members audibly groan when these pictures are viewed at a competition. If it pricks someone's conscience then fine, if it doesn't then keep putting in your workshop pictures. At least you know now that others may not join you in rejoicing at your top score achievement!
 
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That's all true but equally so there are those that do attend workshops and expect to come away with "That" image with a view to submitting into competition.

As has been stated there is a vast spread of expectation among those that attend workshops. Ranging from someone that just wants to go to the location and do his/ her own thing right up to those that want to acquire that winning image. We are all different...
You could say the same for people travelling to exotic places getting photografically only ok pictures of stunning subjects, entering them to competitions and winning because they are exotic and not what you see everyday. Or people Shooting animal portraits in the Zoo.
My take is that even with light being set up, guidance from the photographer doing the workshop and great models available its still the individual who has to come up with the posing, composition and the moment that will capture th image the best. I can put up a makeshift studio at home and do some fairly good portraits of my kids but I dont have access or connections to models or people who would make interesting talents so taking a workshop with the right subject for the sake of making really great images would be an interesting.
Saying that the result has been served on a plate just because it was done on a workshop just isnt right., It could be but not neccesarily
 
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You could say the same for people travelling to exotic places getting photografically only ok pictures of stunning subjects, entering them to competitions and winning because they are exotic and not what you see everyday. Or people Shooting animal portraits in the Zoo.
My take is that even with light being set up, guidance from the photographer doing the workshop and great models available its still the individual who has to come up with the posing, composition and the moment that will capture th image the best. I can put up a makeshift studio at home and do some fairly good portraits of my kids but I dont have access or connections to models or people who would make interesting talents so taking a workshop with the right subject for the sake of making really great images would be an interesting.
Saying that the result has been served on a plate just because it was done on a workshop just isnt right., It could be but not neccesarily
Again, I don't disagree with most of your points. All opinions are valid. But I believe that it is the one step further than your scenarios that are the causes for concern. Imagine that you are on your workshop with the great model and lights but you have no idea how to set your camera. You don't know about aperture, sync speed, shutter speed. The person running the workshop helps you out with all of that and then you get your picture. Is it entirely your own work? The phrase that seems common to most camera club rules books.
 
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I guess the answer to your question could be quite complex and potentially a single rule may not cover it unless you decided on a case by case basis. The reason is photography workshops, photography days and paid for hides/access can differ considerably, therefore it’s down to the club to decide what’s in or out of the rules. That could be quite hard because the range is so varied.

1/ full equipment set up and tuition ie portrait photography of a model in a studio where the leader sets up the model, lighting and provides full tuition/guidance on settings, angles etc. Landscape photography where you are taken to a location, shown how to create the right composition and what settings to use.

2/ small group club together for a studio day with a model. Studio owner sets up lights and triggers but photographers are expected to direct model, chose settings and angles.

3/ wildlife paid for access where a location is set up with everything already in place and all you have to do is wait but chose the right camera settings for the conditions. ie kingfisher diving workshop, water vole workshop,

4/ wildlife workshop where access to animal is provided but getting images is down to you to get the angles/composition and camera settings right. ie hedgehog workshop.

5/ wildlife paid for access but where you are free to create your own images and still have to work to find the subjects and/or angles camera setting etc to get something. ie access to something you couldn't normally access like a private island for hares or private location for Squirrels

6/ wildlife workshop where you are both paying for access and given some tuition. ie photography one-one day or in a small group with a pro photographer to a place like skomer island.

The issue is it’s not black and white as there are many shades of grey. Where rules are introduced people will usually find a loop hole or a way to skirt around them.
Yep! It is very complex. All good examples of grey areas.

I have no problem with workshops per se and I most certainly would not want to discourage anyone form attending one. Everyone has to learn, me more than most. I just wouldn't expect "assisted" images to be used in competition.

The definition of "Assisted' is one of the main problems.

So what is possibly needed are some guidelines, examples of what constitutes "your own work" that could be incorporated into the club rule books.
 
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Suggested draft rule wording:

"All entries must be entirely the own work of the entrant; photographs taken whilst the photographer was working under the supervision or tuition of a third party, for instance during workshops and tutorials, are not eligible."

There you go, sorted! :)

In the case of animal photos, the club can make its own rules up about 'set up' shots of captive/tame animals and genuinely wild ones moving freely in their natural environment.
 
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Again, I don't disagree with most of your points. All opinions are valid. But I believe that it is the one step further than your scenarios that are the causes for concern. Imagine that you are on your workshop with the great model and lights but you have no idea how to set your camera. You don't know about aperture, sync speed, shutter speed. The person running the workshop helps you out with all of that and then you get your picture. Is it entirely your own work? The phrase that seems common to most camera club rules books.
If its the technical stuff then what about this mode? There are people who dont know F-stops from Bus stops but have the creativity and eyes for expression and great images or maybe just gets lucky. I know i sound argumentative but if you start setting criteria in regards to the proces of getting a picture during a workshop and its validity in competitions then youll have to look at other scenarios too like is a image captured by pure luck worthy of winning, are some subjects "finer" than others, do you need to grade images differently after how technically difficult they are to do, how rare the subjects are or are some subjects excluded from competitions due to being made in ZOO's, not being vegan or......... oh wait :p
And then...... Its a Photo club, its for fun, not to be taken to seriously. Heck coming to think of it the "society" here back when I attended competitions was so small the officials were the same bunch of people making it easy for the old gang to submit work targetet for each of them and no way could they be talked into making it a secret whos was to be the judge at what date :thinking:

program-mode.jpg
 
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Interesting as this debate is though; it falls apart at implementation.

If the club (all clubs) create a rule as per @Mr Badger s post, how do you propose it's policed?

Some of the most highly regarded competitions have fallen foul of unscrupulous behaviour in recent years. So how's a camera club supposed to succeed in policing this rule? Sure; honest people will abide by the rules, but others won't. So the rule will fall into the realm of good intentions leading to hell.
 

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Nod (NOT Ethel!!!)
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Yes
You don't know about aperture, sync speed, shutter speed.
So you use one of the automatic modes rather than completely manual.

Is it entirely your own work?
How about people who shoot in JPEG rather than raw - is letting the camera decide how to do the conversion "cheating"?
Even SOOC JPEGs can be manipulated - I could shoot in raw and convert in the camera - the resultant JPEG would be SOOC.

As Phil says, most people will abide by rules, others will comply with the letter of them but not the spirit and a few will plain cheat!
 
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10,953
Name
Garry Edwards
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No
Obviously I can't hate a cracking image, but if its a workshop then the person running that workshop has usually set everything up, so its their image not the image of the person attending

I see this often in Wedding websites too, where I can actually recognise the various models and venues where they were taken as they are noted for workshops. What you then see is several cracking photos among a load of much poorer ones - that's cheating the paying customer in my eyes

Using someone else's setup image as your own in a CC comp is just wrong; taking away the techniques you've learnt and doing it yourself later is fine

Dave
I don't do camera clubs and have never paid to go on a workshop, although I have run a few for other people, so my view may not be valid.

But I remember, from many years ago, Fuji used to do workshops on wedding photography and, to stop people passing off the course leaders work as their own their models wore a large, unmistakable Fuji sash in every shot, which I thought was a very good way of stopping potential dishonesty.

But, in the absence of enforced honesty, my guess is that it would be very hard to enforce any rules that a club may have, it seems to me that if some members want to pass off what, in effect, is other people's work as their own then they will do so and the other members who have submitted work that they created entirely by themselves can still be satisfied that they came first if their entry was the best of the genuine shots . . .
 
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3,139
Name
Mark
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Yes
I don't do camera clubs and have never paid to go on a workshop, although I have run a few for other people, so my view may not be valid.

But I remember, from many years ago, Fuji used to do workshops on wedding photography and, to stop people passing off the course leaders work as their own their models wore a large, unmistakable Fuji sash in every shot, which I thought was a very good way of stopping potential dishonesty.

But, in the absence of enforced honesty, my guess is that it would be very hard to enforce any rules that a club may have, it seems to me that if some members want to pass off what, in effect, is other people's work as their own then they will do so and the other members who have submitted work that they created entirely by themselves can still be satisfied that they came first if their entry was the best of the genuine shots . . .
I love the sash idea! Would make workshop images rather obvious, although perhaps a little difficult to get a kingfisher to wear one!

The problem with any competition is cheating and I’m going to come right out and say that any and every workshop image is the result of another photographer regardless if you think you chose the shutter speed because let’s be honest if you got the shutter speed wrong somebody would be along to help you. It’s painting by numbers.

With that in mind no they shouldn’t be used in camera club comps but policing that is too big a job.
 
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OP
F
Messages
44
Edit My Images
No
If its the technical stuff then what about this mode? There are people who dont know F-stops from Bus stops but have the creativity and eyes for expression and great images or maybe just gets lucky. I know i sound argumentative but if you start setting criteria in regards to the proces of getting a picture during a workshop and its validity in competitions then youll have to look at other scenarios too like is a image captured by pure luck worthy of winning, are some subjects "finer" than others, do you need to grade images differently after how technically difficult they are to do, how rare the subjects are or are some subjects excluded from competitions due to being made in ZOO's, not being vegan or......... oh wait :p
And then...... Its a Photo club, its for fun, not to be taken to seriously. Heck coming to think of it the "society" here back when I attended competitions was so small the officials were the same bunch of people making it easy for the old gang to submit work targetet for each of them and no way could they be talked into making it a secret whos was to be the judge at what date :thinking:

View attachment 267297
I do appreciate that your post is TIC but, presumably, people attend workshops to learn? Thereby they want to get away from P Mode!
 
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OP
F
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44
Edit My Images
No
Interesting as this debate is though; it falls apart at implementation.

If the club (all clubs) create a rule as per @Mr Badger s post, how do you propose it's policed?

Some of the most highly regarded competitions have fallen foul of unscrupulous behaviour in recent years. So how's a camera club supposed to succeed in policing this rule? Sure; honest people will abide by the rules, but others won't. So the rule will fall into the realm of good intentions leading to hell.
Once more a good post. Yes people that want to cheat will cheat but there are those, some on here included, that have never considered this thorny issue before. Perhaps they will mull it over and come down on the side of not using workshop pictures? Furthermore extra wording in a rule book might prick one or two consciences which might preclude or or two more entries from being made.

At the end of the day, yes, it is impossible to police any such rules but does that mean we should ignore the elephant in the room?
 
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1,665
Name
Soeren
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Yes
I do appreciate that your post is TIC but, presumably, people attend workshops to learn? Thereby they want to get away from P Mode!
I was comparing your example with the person not knowing to set the camera to people using full auto only, not knowing or caring about the tech stuff but just clicking away and still getting good images
Well aaalrightiie Im done :)
 
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OP
OP
F
Messages
44
Edit My Images
No
I don't do camera clubs and have never paid to go on a workshop, although I have run a few for other people, so my view may not be valid.

But I remember, from many years ago, Fuji used to do workshops on wedding photography and, to stop people passing off the course leaders work as their own their models wore a large, unmistakable Fuji sash in every shot, which I thought was a very good way of stopping potential dishonesty.

But, in the absence of enforced honesty, my guess is that it would be very hard to enforce any rules that a club may have, it seems to me that if some members want to pass off what, in effect, is other people's work as their own then they will do so and the other members who have submitted work that they created entirely by themselves can still be satisfied that they came first if their entry was the best of the genuine shots . . .
What a great idea the sash is!
 
OP
OP
F
Messages
44
Edit My Images
No
I was comparing your example with the person not knowing to set the camera to people using full auto only, not knowing or caring about the tech stuff but just clicking away and still getting good images
Well aaalrightiie Im done :)
Oh! No offence was meant I assure you! I think you have made some valid points.
 
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