Wedding photography and the recent requests for freebies...

[Headless Lois]

I agree with Alib actually - the wedding forums are better placed for this - more brides to go at. They CAN be scary, but then they do NOT allow unpaid advertising. You can usually promote a service for free. It is a question of learning the rule,s and if someone can'tbe bothered with that then yes, they will have a hard time of it. But never mind, eh?

L

 

[Venomator]

Are we reading the same forum?

I am at any rate...

people here have the lowest regard for manners,

What a difference a word makes... :shrug: ... may well cause all sorts of problems and misunderstandings when people generalise...

not weird, its my honest opinion and not one that I am scared to air here or anywhere else,

An opinion noted... and mine was/is that it is weird... :shrug:


The point is, and this is just my opinion, the airing was on another forum and not on TP, by a brand new member and may leave the distinct impression all people and not just some, or a minority, on TP are included in such a general comment... :shrug:


You must see the confusion such a generalist comment may cause, especially when combined with the sorry state of affairs that is the offending thread and the distress it may have caused to the OP...

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Sorry guys, have to disagree with this one. (And not just because I'm a wedding tog) but it's easy for photographers to join the wedding forums and post there and I consider that to be a far more appropriate place to conduct business than this is.

I agree, whilst Marcel has put forward an extremely reasonable and also thoughtful proposal, I can only see trouble as a result of this venture.

I'm a little torn to be fair but it feels that wedding forums would be a better place to network and put your foot in the door so to speak.

+1 can of worms.

It's my experience that something given for free or very low cost simply leads to more problems afterwards.

That's also been my experience so far Duncan, every time.

 

[boyfalldown]

I'm a little torn to be fair but it feels that wedding forums would be a better place to network and put your foot in the door so to speak.

I'm also a little torn, especially having read what Duncan and Alib have to say, and I think you are right for somebody who is trying to get into wedding photography,

but I do think a work offered forum would be a good idea, people will join and post over here no matter what we think and having a controlled forum seems a better way of dealing with it then having our own bear pit. It would alos give the members chance to look for assisting oppertunities/ assistants in on place also

Hugh

 

[Tyke Tiler]

I'm also a little torn, especially having read what Duncan and Alib have to say, and I think you are right for somebody who is trying to get into wedding photography,

but I do think a work offered forum would be a good idea, people will join and post over here no matter what we think and having a controlled forum seems a better way of dealing with it then having our own bear pit. It would alos give the members chance to look for assisting oppertunities/ assistants in on place also

Hugh

Quite right Hugh, good points. This is difficult one, I'm going to be watching for further opinion and pontifications

 

[feeb]

I am at any rate...





What a difference a word makes... :shrug: ... may well cause all sorts of problems and misunderstandings when people generalise...





An opinion noted... and mine was/is that it is weird... :shrug:


The point is, and this is just my opinion, the airing was on another forum and not on TP, by a brand new member and may leave the distinct impression all people and not just some, or a minority, on TP are included in such a general comment... :shrug:


You must see the confusion such a generalist comment may cause, especially when combined with the sorry state of affairs that is the offending thread and the distress it may have caused to the OP...

no i see no confusion - people here can be rude, simple as, if the members of the forum do not wish to be seen in that light then they could stop treating members of the human race like dirt on the bottom of their shoe.

yes it must have caused extreme distress to the OP which is why i mentioned it, its hardly like shes the only person to recieve the negative end of everyones stick.

p.s i would reply to the rest of you post but it doesnt seem to make much sense i am afraid, perhaps this is just one we will have to agree to disagree on

 

[AliB]

It would alos give the members chance to look for assisting oppertunities/ assistants in on place also

Hugh

I have to admit I would not come here looking for a second/assistant. I would be looking for someone with a little more awareness than just putting a post up here. I look for someone who is active within other organisations and is networking in the right arenas. It shows somewhat more in the way of initiative.

If you are not commercially aware enough to be looking at wedding forums (your target market after all) and not taking the opportunity to network with the right people then I'm sorry but a post on TP is not going to magically open a lot of doors.

I would not look to such a forum to be the panacea of professional togdom.

 

[Venomator]

Apologies first off, to the OP, for I have allowed myself to stray somewhat off topic... ... this will not continue...

no i see no confusion - people here can be rude, simple as, if the members of the forum do not wish to be seen in that light then they could stop treating members of the human race like dirt on the bottom of their shoe.

yes it must have caused extreme distress to the OP which is why i mentioned it, its hardly like shes the only person to recieve the negative end of everyones stick.

p.s i would reply to the rest of you post but it doesnt seem to make much sense i am afraid, perhaps this is just one we will have to agree to disagree on

Yes, I will happily continue to disagree on this, but must just say you have, perhaps unwittingly, further illustrated my point... :shrug:


SOME people here can, undeniably, be rude... but not all people... :nono:

And she did not receive the negative end of everyone's stick just a few misguided and inappropriate posts from SOME individuals !

In fact there were some very appropriate and helpful posts as well but SOME people are, perhaps, overlooking those...

Anyway, nice as it is to debate with you Feeb, as I suggested at the beginning, this is way off topic and I have already aired my apologies, so must, for now, leave this to get back on topic...

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Here's a fairly pertinent example of the heat that wedding related threads can attract.

Personally both Venemator and Feeb have very good points and after checking out the threads that they are referring too, I can see things from both perspectives.

Cheeky requests + rude responses + mob tactics = alot of miffed folk and a locked thread.

A work offered forum is essentially a serious benefit to both photog's wanting to find work/experience and those who are looking for it.

I can't shake the sinking feeling that anything wedding related will degenerate into the usual though. It seems to be the nature of the beast.

 

[boyfalldown]

I have to admit I would not come here looking for a second/assistant. I would be looking for someone with a little more awareness than just putting a post up here. I look for someone who is active within other organisations and is networking in the right arenas. It shows somewhat more in the way of initiative.

If you are not commercially aware enough to be looking at wedding forums (your target market after all) and not taking the opportunity to network with the right people then I'm sorry but a post on TP is not going to magically open a lot of doors.

I would not look to such a forum to be the panacea of professional togdom.

Hi Ali,

All of which is true, but at the same time their are people join and post their first post as wanting a free photographer, members who are looking for an assistant for whatever event, assisting experience, members looking for a experienced tog to help at their mates wedding or a last minute oppertunity for a tog, all of which have been posted in the last 48 hours and all of which have been recieved in different ways, I think we need somewhere to put these sorts of requests.

In the same way as I look to the business forum here as a useful source of ideas and advice, I think this would make a useful addition to the forums, it certainly wouldn't be a panacea though

Hugh

 

[Moonhawk]

I have to admit I would not come here looking for a second/assistant. I would be looking for someone with a little more awareness than just putting a post up here. I look for someone who is active within other organisations and is networking in the right arenas. It shows somewhat more in the way of initiative.

If you are not commercially aware enough to be looking at wedding forums (your target market after all) and not taking the opportunity to network with the right people then I'm sorry but a post on TP is not going to magically open a lot of doors.

I would not look to such a forum to be the panacea of professional togdom.

I have posted adverts on here and other forums that have "Work Wanted" sections - including the Event Photographers forums and Photography Jobs. I have also responded directly to adverts asking for assistant positions. What do you class as "being active" within other organisations?

I got into offering freebie weddings after browsing wedding forums and seeing wanted ads for such services.

It seems to me this is a damned if you do damned if you dont situation. Pros are complaining that amateurs are taking away business by offering their services for free and that they should be assisting pros instead. But then when the amateurs ask where these assisting positions are - we are told we they either dont exist (due to the credit crunch), or that we arent taking the initiative* and are asking in the wrong places.

*personally i'd say that finding and shooting your own wedding and delivering something the couple are happy with actually shows quite a lot of initiative.

 

[AliB]

Ok, here's a few to get the ball rolling. Calumet run a series of seminars all over the country throughout the year. Not only are they valuable business tools but they are also great networking opportunities.

Mark Cleghorn does a series of seminars round the country on a quarterly basis. next one in Stockport is 15th Sept. Cost £25. Not only is it highly informative but again, great networking.

SWPP, do you know where your local group is? Have you ever been to any events?

A lot of the time it's not what you know but who you know so get out there and get to know people!

 

[Moonhawk]

Ok, here's a few to get the ball rolling. Calumet run a series of seminars all over the country throughout the year. Not only are they valuable business tools but they are also great networking opportunities.

Mark Cleghorn does a series of seminars round the country on a quarterly basis. next one in Stockport is 15th Sept. Cost £25. Not only is it highly informative but again, great networking.

SWPP, do you know where your local group is? Have you ever been to any events?

A lot of the time it's not what you know but who you know so get out there and get to know people!

Thanks for those - i'll certainly look into them.

 

[AliB]

Oh and go and read Yervant, Jerry Ghionis and David Becksteads blogs. Usually ahead of the game.

Trash the dress was a fad that started in the US so it's always worth keeping an eye on what is happening on the other side of the pond(s)

 

[HoppyUK]

Back to the OP,

1) Completely unnecessary, unwanted and dictatorial interference IMHO. Most unlike TP policy too. We are grown up children that can wipe our own bottoms.

2. The last thing we need is another separate forum. It will get much less attention than a post in Talk Photography, which is where it should be.

3. There is too much diversification in forums already and I think this site would be better if several of the existing forums were amalgamated. It would drive traffic for the OPs and provide more accessible interest for everyone else. I stumble across loads of good stuff on here purely by accident, buried at the bottom of the page.

4. IMHO, a new forum should only be introduced for a subject that is innappropriate or irrelevant to an existing forum, or if existing forums are clearly overloaded with traffic. Not even Talk Equipment (most popular forum) is overloaded yet in my view. Too many sub-divisions just dilute interest and divert traffic.

 

[artona]

Great idea. Was it on TP that there was a story recently about a wedding photographer who demonstrated dreadful service and kept brides waiting years for albums.

If the introduction had been via TP then at least the bride would be able to chase up the TP moderators to sort out their problems

stew

 

[Headless Lois]

The wedding forums are useful to be at anyway, as they give a great idea of what brides are after, what they're talking about, and what is most important to them. This changes rapidly!
If you can become a useful member on those forums, then you ar emore likely to
1. get help form the other photographers on there
2. get referrals from brides on there. BUT, it does require effort, not one off posts.

That said, on the talkbusiness section there's a massive thread about facebook - those wanting to break into weddings would do well to use all the social networking media around to crack on with it, as well as traditional face to face networking.

L

 

[Cobra]

I have posted adverts on here and other forums that have "Work Wanted" sections - including the Event Photographers forums and Photography Jobs. I have also responded directly to adverts asking for assistant positions. What do you class as "being active" within other organisations?

I got into offering freebie weddings after browsing wedding forums and seeing wanted ads for such services.

It seems to me this is a damned if you do damned if you dont situation. Pros are complaining that amateurs are taking away business by offering their services for free and that they should be assisting pros instead. But then when the amateurs ask where these assisting positions are - we are told we they either dont exist (due to the credit crunch), or that we arent taking the initiative* and are asking in the wrong places.
*personally i'd say that finding and shooting your own wedding and delivering something the couple are happy with actually shows quite a lot of initiative.

An excellent point and saved me a lot of typing into the bargain

 

[WeddingHack]

If the introduction had been via TP then at least the bride would be able to chase up the TP moderators to sort out their problems

stew

I bet the mods are going to love that ...

To answer a previous point, please don't let this turn into a pro's vs amateurs debate. I've got no problem with the concept of people shooting for free / at cost to build a portfolio, I did exactly the same when I started as did many other pro's I know. The clients in the market for such a deal would never pay my prices anyway, so it's no loss or competition. But it is a minefield I don't think TP should be getting drawn into - especially with the prospect of the point Artona made.

 

[Moonhawk]

An excellent point and saved me a lot of typing into the bargain

AliB gave some good pointers for us amateurs to follow up - but at the same time, if amateurs are offering freebies because they are having difficulty locating assisting positions - and these freebies are causing a headache for pros - perhaps there is something to be said for the pros making their assisting positions a little more accessible - meet somewhere in the middle so to speak. Maybe this new forum will perform exactly that function.

I can see where the pros are coming from - but look at it from the amateurs point of view. We could spend months or years attending seminars and networking with no guarantee of getting assisting work. Most positions I have seen advertised by pros ask for a CV, portfolio and references - its catch 22 :shrug:

I had 5 freebie weddings booked in the space of a month by simply browsing wedding forums and posting free ads. Its not hard to do the maths. At the end of all this - even if i'm still not confident enough to start charging for wedding shoots - I should be in a better position to apply for assisting jobs as I will be able to demonstrate what I am capable of to any interested pros out there.

 

[AliB]

I can see where the pros are coming from - but look at it from the amateurs point of view. We could spend months or years attending seminars and networking with no guarantee of getting assisting work. Most positions I have seen advertised by pros ask for a CV, portfolio and references - its catch 22 :shrug:

I get you point about the maths entirely Moonhawk, (and apologies to the OP for straying a little OT) Thing is I had a second at my last wedding (and very good she is too). Did I advertise? No. I don't have to. Neither do I have to advertise when I shoot AS a second which I still do. You won't find a single post anywhere on the internet regarding those jobs. They are done for mates, by mates and where do you make those mates?...........See above for details.

And while you are making those friends and colleages you are also learning the tools of the trade and getting heaps of info and money off software and products..........

I'm not saying "Do it my way and all will be well" but it IS worth some serious consideration because networking has and does work for me. I'm currently about a year ahead of you in setting up and I'm honestly not so blooming precious that I won't share the sweeties.

 

[Cobra]

I had 5 freebie weddings booked in the space of a month by simply browsing wedding forums and posting free ads. .

Good for you getting out there (I just re-read that & it sounds a bit sarcastic it wasn't
meant to sorry if you took it the wrong way )

I don't do weddings and have little intention of doing so, but on the "training front",
I am "heavily" into falconry, and over the years I have mentored quite a few
would be falconers. ( for free), The way I see it I was mentored, and will
happily return the favour else where.

Some would never make a falconer as long as the have a hole in their bum
but go on to practise the art despite my best "suggestions" to the contrary.
Some have even gone on to run courses.

Now I could do that should I so desire, and they could be deemed as competition,
I bet that there are a lot less falconry courses ( or "opportunities") out there than
"wedding courses" or wedding shoots, am I bothered ? not in the slightest
I have the confidence to know that I can provide an equal if not better
course than a lot that are running them.

I think that its all about having confidence in your self as well as the ability
to provide that ( any) service.

It just seems to me that a lot of these arguments start, and are perpetuated, by insecurity. ( where is that tin hat emoticon?)

 

[Marcel]

sorry but what business is it of yours if a photographer is happy to do a wedding and be out of pocket..

I like the idea of having somewhere people can ask for togs.. i dont like the idea that the owners of tp have any input albiet "guidelines" as to what deal the BG and TOG may want to make.

Its not up to TP to protect togs from being exploited..

It is up to us to protect our community from an influx of leeches though. It's not about us stating "You MUST offer such and such", it's about suggesting they shouldn't expect the photographer to offer pre-visits, a full 16 hour working day, followed by fully printed albums and everything a professional would offer, for absolutely nothing just because they're amateurs.

Just like we have guidelines in the classifieds to suggest what should be acceptable, we would have guidelines as to what might be acceptable when requesting a photographer too.
If the photographer wants to ignore them, that's their prerogative and nothing to with us. But we won't be putting a forum up with a big sign saying "Come one and all for free photography".

Just like we don't allow commercial ventures to come here and pimp. You could offer the same argument. What business is it of ours, you can decide if you want to buy some viagra or not can't you?

This is not having any decisional input on the transaction, as I have repeatedly said....it will be guidelines only. It's about ensuring that amateurs that don't have a professional footing don't get seen as an easy target to provide a professional equivalent for free.

1) Completely unnecessary, unwanted and dictatorial interference IMHO. Most unlike TP policy too. We are grown up children that can wipe our own bottoms.

I have to disagree with you there. Unnecesary and unwanted? What's the alternative. Either ban photographer requests altogether, or allow a free for all? The first option wouldn't be popular, and the second option would result in furore just like we saw yesterday, giving us a bad name.
I don't see how it's dictatorial interference if were allowing it to take place unregulated, just because we have suggestions as to what a bride might like to offer, and what they may expect out of it (IE Not a £3500 wedding photographer package).

Every decision we make, at the forefront of those decisions is 'Is it good for the community and the members'. We think this is.

You may think youre all grown up children who can wipe their own bottoms, but some replies we've seen in threads and the behaviour we see behind the scenes would certainly suggest otherwise

2. The last thing we need is another separate forum. It will get much less attention than a post in Talk Photography

Good. Like has been said, we're here to enjoy our chosen hobby/profession. We're not a classifieds newspaper That's why some forums are deliberately hidden. We're about sharing photography with a community of likeminded people, hence why those forums are the most prominent.

Some good points being raised in here though, especially about the possible problems that might ensue......... @ bridezilla

 

[retired]

Slightly off topic but even pros carry out work free of charge :thumbsdown:
Well O.K. they get a couple of weeks advertising but the local paper in Bath (Bath Evening Chronicle) hold a competition to sell their papers and the prize is a free wedding
You collect the tokens and the winner gets the venue, photographer, rings, dress, car and so on, all free.
You are asked to donate your services for a bit of advertising.

 

[HoppyUK]

It is up to us to protect our community...

Fair comment bud I just don't see the problem, but then maybe we don't see everything. It's a fine line between judicious editing and censorship

 

[Dave-G]

I think the guidelines are fair and people are free to do what they want away from the community. Trying to maintain a friendly environment for everyone should be the highest priority and on this forum I believe that is the case.

 

[Splog]

Sorry, but I can't see what all the fuss is about Surely anyone with a digital camera could do wedding shoots anyway.....

 

[Headless Lois]

yawn, yawn, digital this, digital that, there are some perfectly good sketch artists around too, you know

L

 

[Tyke Tiler]

yawn, yawn, digital this, digital that, there are some perfectly good sketch artists around too, you know

L

I was just about to say, forget the camera, use some charcoal and sugar paper!

Why have you've called yourself Headless Lois?

 

[jolsterj]

If someone wants to ask for a free tog let them. I cant see the probelm.

If they get a taker they do, if they don't, they don't.


I am a wedding tog, but it don't ofend me.

I have done weddings for nothing when the fancy takes me.

Live and let live.

 

[mrtoad]

no cult..ure here

good!

 

[Arkady]

Hopefully, putting the 'Trolling For Cheap/Free Togs' into a seprate section will reduce the amount of arguments I get involved in as I can just stay out of that section altogether...
Let's hope others who have as much difficulty as I do in keeping my opinions to myself will do likewise...

If you fancy a bit of work-experience, dip in and have a look, if not then you can Stay Out...

Seems pretty simple to me...

 

[Venomator]

Probably the best advice by far so far Arkady...

 

[drb5]

I think it's a great idea.

I'm be no means a pro(far, far from it!), but i'd love to be given a chance of taking pictures at someone's wedding. Wouldn't bother me not getting paid, or getting paid very little, till i get my confidence up and start largening my kit.

If only it was easy to find someone who wasn't overly bothered who the pics turned out, but at least had the chance of getting a few good ones.

 

[Arkady]

Probably the best advice by far so far Arkady...

lol Cheers Ven...or since I'm in Germany - das Gruene Schlange...

 

[SmileyShazza]

If you fancy a bit of work-experience, dip in and have a look, if not then you can Stay Out...

Seems pretty simple to me...

That exactly what I said in my reply too. It isn't exactly rocket science - if you get offended by people asking for free/cheap wedding togs then just don't go in to that section! :shrug:

 

[Marcel]

That's the thing. There is clearly a market for this sort of request, and that begs the question....what do we do.

We can either ban it all together, which isn't really good for the members we are here to serve.
We can allow a free for all, which just ends up in arguments, bitchfights and general unhappiness. Not good for the TP name and not good for the members at all.
Or we can allow it in a controlled and moderated environment, so that both can come together to work towards an agreement suitable for both parties.

That's my understanding of the matter anyway.

I understand its not going to sit right with the pro's, and maybe some amateurs, but unfortunately...such is life. We can't please everyone all of the time, and like I say...there is clearly a market for it and as a working professional you need to adapt and be able to stay afloat on the top when the market changes. I don't think it is going to cause ripples in the wedding photography business ..... we may be popular but we're not that popular

 

[drb5]

All that would be happening, is promoting what already happens.

 

[AliB]

You are right Marcel there is a market for it but I still belive the wedding forums are the place for it.

I'm more than happy to fight my own corner in terms of competition so I have no concerns at all in that way.

My main concern is actually what happens when it all ends in tears?

I have seen dozens of "I'm going to shoot my first wedding" threads. Yet strangely we don't get to see the same dozens of "The results" threads. Very few proportionally. That leaves me with a slight suspicion then perhaps they did not turn out so well and the tog in question does not want to post the results on here because they know what is likely to come their way.

Now, so long as the couple are happy, then that really is all that matters. But. having kicked around a few wedding forums in the last year or so I have seen the result of less than happy, stressed, hormonal ladies and it 'aint a pretty sight. I do believe Duncan used the words "Bear pit" Makes this place look like a Vicar's tea party for the degenerate.

I would hate for TP to dip it's toe in that particular pond as I can see only too easily a scenario where Bridezilla cuts loose on here and start slagging off a newbie tog. One reason for that is actually the language one poster used the other day. She quite clearly stated that she wanted "professional" photography for nothing. Now I reckon from that language that she's going to be setting the bar pretty high. She was certainly happy to invest for proper services elsewhere for her day. But that aside, my concern is that when someone is expecting "professional" results and receives something less (and yes that is an assumption but one based on a year's experience of doing it myself) then where is that going to be played out?

Carry on by all means Marcel, it's your baby, just don't want to see it end in tears

 

[Marcel]

You do raise some very valid concerns Ali, and if I'm honest I do share them to an extent. I can certainly understand the Bridezilla aspect F