Wedding photography and the recent requests for freebies...

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I know what your saying Ali, but is that not for the tog and bride/groom to asort out among themselfs?

If it were me, i would stress to whoever got in contact with me, what to expect from the final outcome of any pics i take.

If a tog can't speak properly to their customer, then perhaps the job isn't for them. I know the odd time these things casn go wrong, but thats the same with everything.

As long as it's kept simple and well explained, i don't see the problem.
 
AliB said:
I would hate for TP to dip it's toe in that particular pond as I can see only too easily a scenario where Bridezilla cuts loose on here and start slagging off a newbie tog. One reason for that is actually the language one poster used the other day. She quite clearly stated that she wanted "professional" photography for nothing. Now I reckon from that language that she's going to be setting the bar pretty high. She was certainly happy to invest for proper services elsewhere for her day. But that aside, my concern is that when someone is expecting "professional" results and receives something less (and yes that is an assumption but one based on a year's experience of doing it myself) then where is that going to be played out?
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I understand where you're coming from on this, which is why it needs to be made clear at the outset (hence the 'guidelines' mentioned previously) that the results are likely to be haphazard - some new to photographing Weddings may perform spectacularly, while others may not - as long as the 'client' accepts that with a 'Freebie' job he/she has no comebacks if it goes pear-shaped and has signed a waiver to that effect, surely there's no problem... it's all in the details...get it in writing first...

If the Bride2B is that concerned with getting immaculate photography, then hiring a Pro is surely the best insurance? We can advise those that have concerns with quality in that direction - there are, after all some on here who might welcome the referral once it's been pointed out to the OP that her best bet would be a Pro...

Like you've said, one of the OPs was asking for a free 'Pro' tog to do the shoot whilst also spending £800 on the dress and £1500+ on the Honeymoon - her priorities were suspect at best...
Hopefully this new Forum Section will allow us to weed those 'chancers' out to a certain extent, while not causing too much aggro to permeate the rest of the Forum as a whole...
 
(y)

Maybe give the section a rating system or something, that the bride/groom can score their tog on, once said tog has completed everything? Bit like the iTrader thing...
 
drb5 said:
(y)

Maybe give the section a rating system or something, that the bride/groom can score their tog on, once said tog has completed everything? Bit like the iTrader thing...
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no - I really think we should stay away from this, the bridal forums have review sections for suppliers where they can comment on their services should a tog (or other supplier) wish to go there and pay to advertise. But this is a photography forum, not a bridal forum and while I think this new section is a good idea the idea of a bride being able to come back and leave feedback just is wrong

Hugh
 
Perhaps in the guidance for people asking for photographers cheaply or free - there should be something pointing out that they are taking a risk.

There is nothing to say that they wont get exactly what they want from a freebie - I have seen some very good pictures from inexperienced wedding togs - pictures I would be more than happy with from my own wedding, however Pros charge what they do for a reason, with a proven track record, liability insurance etc. With a freebie they will not get any of this assurance and it should be made clear that if the images are very important to them and if they want these guarantees - they should really re-consider.
 
Moonhawk said:
Perhaps in the guidance for people asking for photographers cheaply or free - there should be something pointing out that they are taking a risk.

There is nothing to say that they wont get exactly what they want from a freebie - I have seen some very good pictures from inexperienced wedding togs - pictures I would be more than happy with from my own wedding, however Pros charge what they do for a reason, with a proven track record, liability insurance etc. With a freebie they will not get any of this assurance and it should be made clear that if the images are very important to them and if they want these guarantees - they should really re-consider.
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...pretty much what we're all proposing...
 
Splog said:
Sorry, but I can't see what all the fuss is about :thinking: Surely anyone with a digital camera could do wedding shoots anyway..... :muted:
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or anyone with any camera for that matter

the fuss is about money, integrity of product, and the temerity to ask for something for nothing

this is an open forum...so i cant see the problem either from where i stand
 
If it does all go horribly wrong and a bridezilla lets loose then there will be less requests for unpaid work and the word will spread pretty quickly that if you want to be guaranteed good pictures get a pro, if you take the risk of a first timer you will get lucky dip from anything between nearly pro level to total rubbish!
 
boyfalldown said:
no - I really think we should stay away from this, the bridal forums have review sections for suppliers where they can comment on their services should a tog (or other supplier) wish to go there and pay to advertise. But this is a photography forum, not a bridal forum and while I think this new section is a good idea the idea of a bride being able to come back and leave feedback just is wrong

Hugh
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Agreed. The only input into TP that a bride should get is coming here to post her request, that's it.
 
Good thread here. Its certainly an area Im really interested in. Trying to capture that break into the wedding market can be quite a challenge and one I would be really grateful of assistance with. I find it dis-heartening and unfortunate that only a couple of nights ago there was a request from a bride to be on this site for exactly what we are suggesting and she recieved what I believe to be a completely un-necessary torrent of abuse from members on the site. This eventually scared her off which was a bit dis-appointing for me because it could have been that 'break' I was after.
I agree that most pro togs wouldnt entertain these requests but I dont think theres a need to start a thread of abuse toward the inquisitor.
A section of the site solely dedicated to Amateur togs wishing to either dip toes or start their prospective pro careers would be a god-send.
Even if no payment is recieved by the amateur for the event, the shots would be priceless for a portfolio or website.
 
Mods: Can the Wedding post be restricted from appearing on the front page much as posts to the nude & glamour section. I for one am fed up with seeing wedding posts & pics (good as some of them are) and I think these are just pushing out threads that have more relevance to TP .......? :exit:

Paul
 
I just set my link direct to 'Forums'... saves having to go through the HomePage at all...
 
I may have to when the homepage is swamped with wedding requests and pics ..... but I like using the homepage as it allows me to venture into a thread for its content rather than for a particular subject ...... just gives me more variation (or did).

Paul
 
What's this TP obsession with weddings anyway? I don't give a damn personally. I did a couple, never again, and I'm not planning to get re married... :shug:

Anyway, it is clear that some people have no appetite for robust and frank debate, well the mods at least, but since they daren't ban it, hide it somewhere obscure and hope it goes away. Which stikes me as a bit strange on an open forum, but there you go.

As for Bridezilla, bring her on. Give her a fair hearing and friendly advice. Or a battering if she deserves it. Sounds like excellent sport to me :D
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Thats the problem it isn't usually fair or friendly.

Paul
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I think some people on here are just too sensitive. It's a forum and if you post on one you should expect to have a less polite experience than if you're sat in a pub with your mates.

..and punters coming looking for a freebie get what they deserve, whether it's positive or not.
I bet they didn't go into the wedding dress shop and ask for a free dress!

If we're into banning forums and posts can we get rid of all the posts of birds? Probably not, but I find them boring and uninteresting, but I just ignore them and move on rather than trying to get them banned - why can't non wedding togs do the same for the wedding posts?
 
HoppyUK said:
Anyway, it is clear that some people have no appetite for robust and frank debate, well the mods at least, but since they daren't ban it, hide it somewhere obscure and hope it goes away. Which stikes me as a bit strange on an open forum, but there you go.
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I think you're way out of line there - there's a difference between 'robust and frank' and downright 'rude and offensive'...some of the responses to one of those 'Free Tog' requests weren't in the least bit helpful, or even relevant...

It seems as though there is a 'market' for people asking for 'freebies' much in the way that photographers and models offer TFP/TFCD - I don't think it should be just limited to Weddings, but maybe we'll see how it goes before asking it to be opened up to other subjects...

I think the mods are merely responding to a demand...nothing to do with hiding it away 'somewhere obscure'...

I find 'kittens and knitting' to be hateful and boring and thankfully there's a seperate section for those - not that it always stops them cropping-up in the General sections, though...:cautious:
 
:agree:

I would normally bite my tongue when reading a post like the one above by you Keirik ........ but I have seen a number of posts from you that I think are not in the spirit of TP. You should maybe take some time before hitting the post button and ask yourself "What sort of reaction would I get if I was face to face with the person I am responding to?" .... to me you come across as VERY RUDE! and I for one wouldn't want someone with that attitude doing any sort of professional service for me or even be representative of something I have some interest in (TP Forum) ..... rant over.

Paul
 
keirik said:
I think some people on here are just too sensitive. It's a forum and if you post on one you should expect to have a less polite experience than if you're sat in a pub with your mates.

..and punters coming looking for a freebie get what they deserve, whether it's positive or not.
I bet they didn't go into the wedding dress shop and ask for a free dress!

If we're into banning forums and posts can we get rid of all the posts of birds? Probably not, but I find them boring and uninteresting, but I just ignore them and move on rather than trying to get them banned - why can't non wedding togs do the same for the wedding posts?
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Sorry but I can't find anything here that I would term rude or offensive. You may or may not agree with the post but that, in and of itself, does not make it rude. I happen to think it's a very valid opinion.
 
HoppyUK said:
Anyway, it is clear that some people have no appetite for robust and frank debate, well the mods at least, but since they daren't ban it, hide it somewhere obscure and hope it goes away. Which stikes me as a bit strange on an open forum, but there you go.
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Its not that we dont have the stomach for 'Robust and frank debate'.
Its more a case of experience in knowing that it often turns into a bloody big argument!
On a personal level Im quite partial to the odd bit of neck ringing, but as a Mod on an open forum I tend not to air my own personal opinions too often in heated debates... well there has to be someone to pick up all the rattles doesnt there!

Personally Im not sure a section advertising freebies is a good idea.
I dont see why we need to encourage people who arent interested in photography to join up here.
Theres been enough trivia dotted through serious parts of the forum from the likes of a certain recently banned member to know how such members can devalue the site, not to mention the obvious encouragment of a trend for brides to solicit unpaid work.

Im considering dipping a toe into wedding photography myself, if I like it I shall seek work as an assitant.
Im not saying I definately wouldnt do a freebie but its not something Id like to see encouraged here, as this is where we try to promote our creative abilities, not undermine them.

I also think that those wishing to try out a 'freebie wedding' could easily be pointed in the direction of the weddings forums as suggested by AliB who gave some very useful advice for someone just starting to get an interest in this type of photography.
 
InaGlo said:
...I'm not saying I definately wouldnt do a freebie but its not something Id like to see encouraged here, as this is where we try to promote our creative abilities, not undermine them...
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Curious as to why doing a few free jobs to 'learn the trade' so to speak would neccessarily undermine those 'creative abilities'...

Surely doing a few jobs without the pressure of satisfying a paying customer could be beneficial to some, allowing them to concentrate on imagery rather than business and marketing...
 
I agree Rob, wholeheartedly in fact.
The only real worry I have is the word spreading around the bridal forums that theres no need to allocate money from the budget for the photography, theres a lovely little place on the net called Talk Photography where togs are queueing up to give their services for free.
 
InaGlo said:
I agree Rob, wholeheartedly in fact.
The only real worry I have is the word spreading around the bridal forums that theres no need to allocate money from the budget for the photography, theres a lovely little place on the net called Talk Photography where togs are queueing up to give their services for free.
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ah yes...which is why 'we' (read 'you') need to police it...ask a few why's and wherefore's before committing...ask the reason why the couple require a free tog, what sort of images they're hoping to get from the day etc - I see this less of a market for them getting a free tog and more of an opportunity to convince them to PAY a Pro to do it 'properly'...
If they genuinely cannot afford to pay someone then we open it up...

What mechanism we use to achieve that is another matter...
 
I love reading wedding threads when I`m fed up and slightly down, they always cheer me up no end.........(y)
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Mods: Can the Wedding post be restricted from appearing on the front page much as posts to the nude & glamour section. I for one am fed up with seeing wedding posts & pics (good as some of them are) and I think these are just pushing out threads that have more relevance to TP .......? :exit:

Paul
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that's just how I feel about motorsport but I'm not here trying to ban it! :wacky:
 
Who wants to ban it (not me) ... I just think it is taking over the forum and at the end of the day TP is not here to promote professional wedding tog services (or am I wrong?) I thought we were all like minded peeps wanting to discuss, help and improve our tog skills a clear separate area of indicating an amature type service with guidelines seems ideal to me.

Paul
 
InaGlo said:
I agree Rob, wholeheartedly in fact.
The only real worry I have is the word spreading around the bridal forums that theres no need to allocate money from the budget for the photography, theres a lovely little place on the net called Talk Photography where togs are queueing up to give their services for free.
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But there would only ever be a certain number of brides who would even consider free photography anyway

L
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Who wants to ban it (not me) ... I just think it is taking over the forum and at the end of the day TP is not here to promote professional wedding tog services (or am I wrong?) I thought we were all like minded peeps wanting to discuss, help and improve our tog skills.

Paul
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I think this has taken priority this week due to a couple of threads which provoked a fairly 'spirited' response - it could have been Bar-Mitzvahs or funerals, but it just happened to be weddings on this occasion...
 
Hammerhead64 said:
Who wants to ban it (not me) ... I just think it is taking over the forum and at the end of the day TP is not here to promote professional wedding tog services (or am I wrong?) I thought we were all like minded peeps wanting to discuss, help and improve our tog skills a clear separate area of indicating an amature type service with guidelines seems ideal to me.

Paul
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So if TP is not to promote professional wedding tog services (which I agree with BTW and one reason for the lack of my business anywhere on TP) why should we have a forum dedicated to those who want to become just that?

I think it's full of pitfalls needs to be very carefully considered from a legal point of view with proper contracts and consideration given to public liablilty insurances and made quite clear that professional indemnity does not come into it.

I don't like motorsport photography despite being an utter petrolhead. I think it's boring and one pic of a garish car going round a corner is the same as any garish car going round a corner to me but I don't demand their removal from the home page :shake:

Anyway, I'm done, had my say and happy to avoid the debris :)
 
InaGlo said:
Im considering dipping a toe into wedding photography myself, if I like it I shall seek work as an assitant.
Im not saying I definately wouldnt do a freebie but its not something Id like to see encouraged here, as this is where we try to promote our creative abilities, not undermine them.
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How will you go about dipping your toe - you would presumably have to do a wedding in order to see whether you like it enough to apply for an assistants position (The standard answer of course is to do family and friends weddings, but that assumes you have family who are getting married - or indeed that you have friends).

Amateurs offering freebies is not viable long term and I bet most would, after doing a few, either start charging or decide its not for them.

Freebies are a fact of life in most "service" professions. I dont see why offering a freebie to Jo Bloggs is any different from offering it to friends or family (presumably some pro's are not averse to doing free jobs for friends and family) - potentially you are still doing another pro tog out of a job.
 
Headless Lois said:
But there would only ever be a certain number of brides who would even consider free photography anyway

L
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You think so?
No really, Im not being picky, my interest in wedding photography is quite new, and Im not sure whether it will be serious one, so all this is pretty new to me.

What I am sure of though, is that when people are spending an awful lot of money on something, they tend to look for places to cut corners, and from what Ive heard/seen, with weddings the photography appears to be one such cut.

Im not talking high end weddings, where the monied can afford not to worry, but how long will it be before the midstream brides cotton on and come up with a sob story as to why they cant afford a photographer.

Moonhawk said:
How will you go about dipping your toe
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By assisting another photographer.
As AliB said, networking is the key is it not?
Photography clubs, friends, contacting other jobbing wedding togs and asking if they need/will let you help.

Im not sure Im quite making my point here. Im NOT against anyone doing a freebie wedding, but I am against promoting it, and IMO a section dedicated to it on TP is doing just that.
 
Hammerhead64 said:
:agree:

I would normally bite my tongue when reading a post like the one above by you Keirik ........ but I have seen a number of posts from you that I think are not in the spirit of TP. You should maybe take some time before hitting the post button and ask yourself "What sort of reaction would I get if I was face to face with the person I am responding to?" .... to me you come across as VERY RUDE! and I for one wouldn't want someone with that attitude doing any sort of professional service for me or even be representative of something I have some interest in (TP Forum) ..... rant over.

Paul
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who rattled your cage?

If you don't like my posts don't read them

It's obvious from this that one of us posts without thinking, but it's not me
 
AliB said:
Sorry but I can't find anything here that I would term rude or offensive. You may or may not agree with the post but that, in and of itself, does not make it rude. I happen to think it's a very valid opinion.
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thanks.

I have an opinion, and I don't see why it's less valid than others - but obviously others disagree.

thanks for the vote of confidence.

Hammerhead may also like to read my other posts and hopefully they will see I try to be constructive - except when I creat a tongue in cheek post that approximately half of TP didn't understand
 
Mods- maybe you can look into a personalised homepage- so you only see posts from the forums thats your interested in? :)
 
Keirik, if you think your wit is a little too sharp for half the forum, then maybe help us along by using the smilies a little more.
It kinda helps the reader interpret the intent when there is no body language or tone of voice. :shrug:(y) ................:p
 
keirik said:
who rattled your cage?

If you don't like my posts don't read them

It's obvious from this that one of us posts without thinking, but it's not me
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:dummy: As I said ......very rude! It is not me I'm talking about reading them (as I just up to this point ignored them) it others new to TP who may think rude responses are the norm when asking a question that can be just ignored or politely explained the pitfalls of free services (not all 'freebies' are bad by the way). Can I ask are you a wedding photographer?

:D

Paul
 
Hammerhead64 said:
:dummy: As I said ......very rude! It is not me I'm talking about reading them (as I just up to this point ignored them) it others new to TP who may think rude responses are the norm when asking a question that can be just ignored or politely explained the pitfalls of free services (not all 'freebies' are bad by the way).

:D

Paul
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ok, so point out where I've been rude so I can be educated, as I don't think I have been, but happy to be corrected
 
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