Wedding photography and the recent requests for freebies...

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Originally I thought this was a great idea, the more I think about it the worse I think the idea is - and this is from someone looking to build their own portfolio.

I do, however, think that a forum where pro's can post any spots for 2nd shooters would be awesome - not sure how much use it would get thought :(
 
I do sometimes wonder if there are more people considering doing the freebie weddings because of the fact that the pros (on other sites as well as here) keep saying how hard it is to do well and how long it takes to get into properly. Its like telling a child sweets are bad for them or a woman that she should not eat chocolate - they want to do it even more.

These threads are good reading and even gets someone like me who does not like people photography let alone weddings wondering why there is so much fuss every time this sort of thing comes up.
Yes I have been made redundant because my job was done by someone the company owner knew for very little money, as they wanted the kudos on their cv. It was not nice but I just worked harder to got a better quality job.
I do understand that its not nice having someone offering to do something for nothing, but equally why the people who have good quality professional photos as a very low priority and possibly only want a few snaps are not going to want to pay a few hundred pounds for that.
As long as there are no high expectations of the amateur and the bride and groom realise they could end up with what they pay for and have 1,000 out of focus pics of the inside of a lens cap then thats their risk, not a nice thing to happen but if they put a zero value on something then zero is what they should expect. Pay a reasonably priced pro and get pro level pictures.


Now, I've read the book on how to use a flash so I'm off to buy a wedding book from amazon so I can read it before I get myself some free weddings to see how hard it really is :LOL: :naughty:
 
Moonhawk said:
Isnt us doing that exactly what pros are complaining about.
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I don't think it is, and I wouldn't have any sympathy if they were. Everyone has to start somewhere and many of them will have had similar beginnings no doubt. They shouldn't be afraid of that sort of competition.

People offering to work for nothing isn't a good idea, and I can see the problem they have with that - there are plenty of couples out there who would take advantage of that situation and that does potentially take a lot of work away from pros. I don't actually buy these bride sob stories, and I have helped couples out in the past at pretty well cost to me in genuine cases - but freebies - no!

If you don't mind me saying so the whole problem is being caused by people coming on this board and talking about it instead of just getting out there and farping well doing it. Seriously - it's never been easier than it is now. How many people would be wanting to go and do it with a roll or two of film and without the comforter blanket of that preview screen I wonder?

If you're confident in your own photographic ability then if you can't go and do it these days then you never will. ;)
 
spxxxx said:
I'm with Hugh .... and yes I'm biased - and no I haven't read all the other pages - but how many of you doing other jobs would allow someone to offer to do the same work for free in its own section ... then you would become a bit insecure no doubt...

But apparently Wedding Pros' don't get afforded the same respect ...
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+1
 
spxxxx said:
I'm with Hugh .... and yes I'm biased - and no I haven't read all the other pages - but how many of you doing other jobs would allow someone to offer to do the same work for free in its own section ... then you would become a bit insecure no doubt...

But apparently Wedding Pros' don't get afforded the same respect ...
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so if thats the case , next time someone offers me a lift in a car i'll say no 'cos its putting taxi drivers jobs at risk ! ;);)

BTW i'm not having a dig , its just the way i see it
 
mrgas said:
so if thats the case , next time someone offers me a lift in a car i'll say no 'cos its putting taxi drivers jobs at risk ! ;);)

BTW i'm not having a dig , its just the way i see it
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Analogy fail.

What would work to draw a parallel with what's being suggested here is for you to start up a free lift thread/ads on a taxi forum or outside a taxi office.....
 
Radiohead said:
Analogy fail.

What would work to draw a parallel with what's being suggested here is for you to start up a free lift thread/ads on a taxi forum or outside a taxi office.....
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It hasn't failed for the simple reason most people asking for free wedding togs aren't asking for professionals to do it , they mostly asking for people with adequate knowledge and equipment to do it.

Rightly or wrongly advances in technology enable most of us to do certain jobs that previously would have required the services of a pro , I'm not for one minute saying the same results would be achievable , but its all about what minimum standard is acceptable ,
 
I am a weekend warrior and i am off to do a wedding .........cheap compared to some [most]


:razz:

Instead of a button to ignore a person I would like a button to ignore a thread.

but it does amuse me to read it;)
 
mrgas said:
It hasn't failed for the simple reason most people asking for free wedding togs aren't asking for professionals to do it , they mostly asking for people with adequate knowledge and equipment to do it.

Rightly or wrongly advances in technology enable most of us to do certain jobs that previously would have required the services of a pro , I'm not for one minute saying the same results would be achievable , but its all about what minimum standard is acceptable ,
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Actually, I think a lot of people asking for freebies want exactly that - the quality of a pro without paying for it. They might not say it, but that's what they hope for.

Having a car in London doesn't make you a black cab driver.

Off to shoot a wedding now :D
 
mrgas said:
It hasn't failed for the simple reason most people asking for free wedding togs aren't asking for professionals to do it , they mostly asking for people with adequate knowledge and equipment to do it.

Rightly or wrongly advances in technology enable most of us to do certain jobs that previously would have required the services of a pro , I'm not for one minute saying the same results would be achievable , but its all about what minimum standard is acceptable ,
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The question is - should Talk Photography support members shooting weddings for nothing. Obviously they cannot stop photographers shooting for free and if I bride joins asking then fair enough. There will always be photographers who do not have the confidence/ability to charge and so will work for free, a bit like a work trial the job centre has set up for unemployed people.

We have just offered a work trial to a single mum looking to return to work. She will work for upto 30 days at no charge to us. If she works well we will offer her a paid job at th eend of it. If it does not work out she will stop working. Her benefits will have continued so she has nothing to lose and neither do we.

However how many brides understand that just because a photographer can shoot landscapes it does not in all cases demonstrate they can shoot a wedding. If the photographer fails in covering the wedding what has he/she lost other than fuel and time. But what has the bride lost out on?

To use the taxi/car example would TP promote a service where a new driver with no license or experience will drive you around for free just to get experience? Everyone would probably understand the dangers but the same cannot be said of the wedding photographer.

If TP really is planning to offer a service and promote it I will start a book where you can all pay a fiver and guess the date of the first legal action against the staff and mods of TP from a bride who feels let down

stew
 
IMO its a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. as an amateur togger trying to break into portraits and interested in wedding photography, i look at things from the am and pro sides before coming to a decision on things, as far as i can tell, compiled from the divesity of the posts so far, an aspiring wedding tog wishing to try there hand at a wedding must either: do courses, workshops first - first do some 2nd toggin - go for it you never know till you try - free work to start you on your journey is fine and the only way to go.
MUST NOT: do workshops as you arent taught anything - go in for it, leave it to the pros - do it for free is wrong as your killing the industry.
OR.....the other musts are not vaible cos when posting to ask to be a 2nd tog in most cases are ignored or slated or made fun of in other threads. Courses what ever the price are either too expensive or unable to be unattended due to work commitments or location, most ams will hold down a full time job and will have to fit and budge these things in aroumd them which makes it harder for them to break into pro work.

I personally would love to 2nd tog on a wedding or 3, hell ive even posted in the relevet section on TP but after 40 odd views, nuthin, im on photoassist as well, i have contacted nearly every wedding tog in my area, also nuthin, so i am trying, its as rare as rocking horse p00 though, i have been asked to do a small 20 people wedding from a work collegue who has seen my work, i have excepted and am charging a fee to cover costs, he has signed a waiver knowing im not a pro. i havent done courses, i dont have qualifications, i just have my technical experiance, confidence and a positive attitude.
everyone has a starting point, this wil be mine.

sink or swim, well find out next september, oh and i will post my pictures, good or bad. (y)
 
ChrisGaskin said:
IMO its a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. as an amateur togger trying to break into portraits and interested in wedding photography, i look at things from the am and pro sides before coming to a decision on things, as far as i can tell, compiled from the divesity of the posts so far, an aspiring wedding tog wishing to try there hand at a wedding must either: do courses, workshops first - first do some 2nd toggin - go for it you never know till you try - free work to start you on your journey is fine and the only way to go.
MUST NOT: do workshops as you arent taught anything - go in for it, leave it to the pros - do it for free is wrong as your killing the industry.
OR.....the other musts are not vaible cos when posting to ask to be a 2nd tog in most cases are ignored or slated or made fun of in other threads. Courses what ever the price are either too expensive or unable to be unattended due to work commitments or location, most ams will hold down a full time job and will have to fit and budge these things in aroumd them which makes it harder for them to break into pro work.

I personally would love to 2nd tog on a wedding or 3, hell ive even posted in the relevet section on TP but after 40 odd views, nuthin, im on photoassist as well, i have contacted nearly every wedding tog in my area, also nuthin, so i am trying, its as rare as rocking horse p00 though, i have been asked to do a small 20 people wedding from a work collegue who has seen my work, i have excepted and am charging a fee to cover costs, he has signed a waiver knowing im not a pro. i havent done courses, i dont have qualifications, i just have my technical experiance, confidence and a positive attitude.
everyone has a starting point, this wil be mine.

sink or swim, well find out next september, oh and i will post my pictures, good or bad. (y)
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Chris - get some business cards printed, go to your local registry office and hang out. Tell the staff what you are doing. As grooms arrive approach them and ask if they have a photographer. If they haven't offer your services

stew
 
This debate is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy.

My position, which you can all ignore...I think I may have already said this....IMO it's all very simple. All that is required is managing the expectationas of anyone asking for a "free photographer". Do that properly, and I see no issue here.

ANYONE OF US, regardless of skill level, who at the moment, cannot charge for weddings, is NOT a professional wedding photographer. If you were, you would be earning. And no, not £200 or £300 a pop. I have shot 2 weddings. I liked the photos mostly. The bride and groom loved the photos. Am I a professional? Heck NO! Not even close!

Any PRO photographers, is therefore RIGHT to laugh / shake their head (delete as appropriate) at ANYONE asking for a pro photographer to work for free or extremely cheaply. PRO and FREE are mutually exclusive. PRO and REALLY REALLY CHEAP - well, that's not a pro either. That's what you call a wannabe on his or her way to being a proper PRO (IMO).

So with that in mind, quite simply, ANY bride or other person asking for a REALLY CHEAP or FREE professional photographer should be told "impossible request". They *might* find an amatuer or aspiring wannabe who can deliver professional results, but they should accept that this person will more than likely (or possibly) fall short on one or more levels. There is more to shooting a wedding than taking photos! It's not a case of turn up with your D3, take a few shots, go home, and burn to disk / send to album printer. That doesnt even come close, so why pretend? If you are in a position to do it free or cheap, don't kid the bride on. You are not a professional, and far from it. Get that message across, every time, and this problem goes away.

Gary.
 
artona said:
Chris - get some business cards printed, go to your local registry office and hang out. Tell the staff what you are doing. As grooms arrive approach them and ask if they have a photographer. If they haven't offer your services

stew
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What was that for?

This cements whats been said before, someone gives their opinion and then gets ridiculed or slated. how is that helping anyone :shrug:
 
im tempted to close this now...but if I do, Studio16 will have a funny turn :runaway:

Jo, if you dont like a thread, dont click on it, or dont come here..:nuts:
 
matty said:
im tempted to close this now...but if I do, Studio16 will have a funny turn :runaway:

Jo, if you dont like a thread, dont click on it, or dont come here..:nuts:
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I agree ha ha,,,,,,,so why would you close a thread tell them ''don't click on it or don't come here''
 
Wow, last time I looked at this thread it was only a couple of pages!

I did my sisters wedding about 18 months ago, there was no way she could afford a pro etc and she begged me to do it so i agreed to do it with my old Oly E500 and kit lens.

I have to say, it was one of the most stressfull things I've done! It did teach me some good lessons though, I've done my necies christening since and some portrait stuff but nothing 'pro' or paying.

Friends, family etc have been asking after me etc. I've now agreed to do a friends wedding in Feb next year and poss got another 2 next summer.

But... not for free! but (again) not for lots and lots. I see it as an aprentiship sort of thing, more experience I have the more i would charge.

I'm giving myself plenty of time to prepare, I'm upgrading my kit to a 5D next weekand with some L glass. Also looking at backup kit and teching my girlfriend how to use an SLR just in case (and also as a poss second shooter candid stuff).

I'm not taking any of this lightly though, it was a big dissicion for me as I tend to be a bit harsh on my own work if you no what i mean?

everyone has to start somewhere....

(I blame it all on drowning my old casio point and shoot at the top of Snowdon a few years ago and thinking, i know... I'll get one of them big cameras... :bonk: )
 
I know I said I would not post on this thread anymore but as I'm sat here backing up a hdd I thought I'd just check on its progress. In fact last night as I was downloading yesterdays wedding I had a thought (dangerous I know :thinking:).It occurred to me those who have taken the time to post defending their free weddings, offer this service due to lack of experience and confidence in their work. So in an attempt to help (albeit from a distance) if anyone would like to pm me a link to a complete wedding gallery I would happy to pass critique on all images. I'd also be open to pass on information or answer any questions regarding proceedure, protocal, booking forms etc. Questions maybe they do not feel comfortable in posting on here however if agreeable some cases may benefit forum members and could be posted but only with consent .
Everything would be strictly confidential with all comments aimed at positives and negatives. If anyone is interested please PM in the first instance.
 
snapzz said:
I know I said I would not post on this thread anymore but as I'm sat here backing up a hdd I thought I'd just check on its progress. In fact last night as I was downloading yesterdays wedding I had a thought (dangerous I know :thinking:).It occurred to me those who have taken the time to post defending their free weddings, offer this service due to lack of experience and confidence in their work. So in an attempt to help (albeit from a distance) if anyone would like to pm me a link to a complete wedding gallery I would happy to pass critique on all images. I'd also be open to pass on information or answer any questions regarding proceedure, protocal, booking forms etc. Questions maybe they do not feel comfortable in posting on here however if agreeable some cases may benefit forum members and could be posted but only with consent .
Everything would be strictly confidential with all comments aimed at positives and negatives. If anyone is interested please PM in the first instance.
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:clap: :clap: :clap:
I hope some of the people starting out take you up on that offer, its probably the most positive and helpful post I have seen from a pro on this thread.
 
I expect there are several more, but its nice to see on the actual wedding thread that its obvious someone has read posts, seen where people are needing help and is trying to help and be accesible to those starting out :)
 
Yes despite being mauled it is certainly something to applaud. :)
 
mrcrow said:
and why..;)
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I like to think they come here for a genuine love of photography, liking the level playing field where hobbyists and pros just enjoy a common love of the same pursuit. It was definitely like that before the board got to be the size it is now.

Now you just have to look round the board to see the lamentably low level of resoponses to image posts given the size of the membership. The threads which seem to be the busiest now are ones like this, or asking what should I charge for a print etc... yadda yadda ad infinitum.

We really need to look at where the board is going in my honest opinion. :shrug:
 
CT said:
We really need to look at where the board is going in my honest opinion. :shrug:
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I have said that, on more than one occasion,
it used to resemble a cosy fireside
but now its more like public bar on a Friday night...............

A victim of its own success IMHO

(apologies for going slightly O/T)
 
CT said:
I like to think they come here for a genuine love of photography, liking the level playing field where hobbyists and pros just enjoy a common love of the same pursuit. It was definitely like that before the board got to be the size it is now.

Now you just have to look round the board to see the lamentably low level of resoponses to image posts given the size of the membership. The threads which seem to be the busiest now are ones like this, or asking what should I charge for a print etc... yadda yadda ad infinitum.

We really need to look at where the board is going in my honest opinion. :shrug:
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a pretty shrewd observation...i agree about the love of photography and see the forum as a good place to chat and get to know folks who know.
responsers can be intimidated by thinking that its all tech and pro...

and its not!
 
jolsterj said:
I agree ha ha,,,,,,,so why would you close a thread tell them ''don't click on it or don't come here''
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Jo my dear, you want an ignore thread button...you just dont seem to get it, do you..:thinking:
 
CT said:
We really need to look at where the board is going in my honest opinion. :shrug:
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Agree 100% Cedric,though I fear I may a bit too honest and forthright for the majority of members submitting images for C&C,hence my reluctance to post or critique others images.
 
cheviot said:
Yup. Tesco wont give me tick on my groceries, my garage wont give me a free MOT, the council wont wait for my tax payments, ditto HMRC. Phil Collins wont sing me a free and JK Rowling wont write me a free book, so I don't take free pictures. ;)
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If this is your polite way of explaining your Wedding services then i'm afraid as a potential client i'd be out of the door very quickly ....... IMO you would explain how much of an excellent product they would be getting rather from your point of view? Still i'm not a Pro Wedding tog so ...what do I know? And if we go to the original reason of this thread inpolite, un-informative dialogue was the root of the problem.

:shrug:

Paul
 
The "Youll never see a plumber working for free" and some such.

Has no one ever heard of work experience?
 
CT said:
I like to think they come here for a genuine love of photography, liking the level playing field where hobbyists and pros just enjoy a common love of the same pursuit. It was definitely like that before the board got to be the size it is now.

Now you just have to look round the board to see the lamentably low level of resoponses to image posts given the size of the membership. The threads which seem to be the busiest now are ones like this, or asking what should I charge for a print etc... yadda yadda ad infinitum.

We really need to look at where the board is going in my honest opinion. :shrug:
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That's why I'm here, it's a place for me to share my personal stuff, contribute to some threads when I have time, share some knowledge and learnings I've made. I think I've only ever posted my wedding work up twice, once a LMPA panel, and a slideshow to demonstrate my learnings from a workshop. Personally I don't think a public forum is the appropriate place to be displaying a clients paid work for comment.

Aspiring wedding photographers, this is NOT the best place to be seeking your knowledge. Go find the pro forums, several of them have student or aspiring sections that you can join. THEY WILL COST YOU MONEY TO JOIN. Want a business ? Start investing in it.

I ain't going to tell you where they are, if you can't find them then you probably don't deserve to be a wedding tog.

If you want a business, do it any way you want - it's your own business and no-one else's. Free weddings, cheap weddings, shoot everything on a fisheye, go on courses, jump straight in, whatever. Your business will succeed or fail on it's merits and your abilities. Ask on here and you'll get a hundred answers, mostly from folk that have never shot a wedding, many rude, some helpful, mostly confusing.

I hate the antagonism that grows in these threads between some amateurs and some pros. Pretty soon it seems that all pros are tarred with the same brush.

Amateurs please remember that we are all photographers and that's why we're here (I hope), some of us just get paid for it, sorry about that.

Pros please remember that we are all photographers, we get paid for it and that's brilliant. The way we got to where we are is one way of doing it. Others will have different paths, let them make their own mistakes. If any pro on here is concerned by free / cheap weddings competing with them they have bigger issues to worry about in their business. Go sort them out.

This forum is called Talk Photography, lets keep it that way. Personally I think the business section was a step in the wrong direction, which has led us here. Let's get back to photography.
 
WeddingHack said:
That's why I'm here, it's a place for me to share my personal stuff, contribute to some threads when I have time, share some knowledge and learnings I've made. I think I've only ever posted my wedding work up twice, once a LMPA panel, and a slideshow to demonstrate my learnings from a workshop. Personally I don't think a public forum is the appropriate place to be displaying a clients paid work for comment.

Aspiring wedding photographers, this is NOT the best place to be seeking your knowledge. Go find the pro forums, several of them have student or aspiring sections that you can join. THEY WILL COST YOU MONEY TO JOIN. Want a business ? Start investing in it.

I ain't going to tell you where they are, if you can't find them then you probably don't deserve to be a wedding tog.

If you want a business, do it any way you want - it's your own business and no-one else's. Free weddings, cheap weddings, shoot everything on a fisheye, go on courses, jump straight in, whatever. Your business will succeed or fail on it merits and your abilities. Ask on here and you'll get a hundred answers, mostly from folk that have never shot a wedding, many rude, some helpful, mostly confusing.

I hate the antagonism that grows in these threads between some amateurs and some pros. Pretty soon it seems that all pros are tarred with the same brush.

Amateurs please remember that we are all photographers and that's why we're here (I hope), some of us just get paid for it, sorry about that.

Pros please remembered that we are all photographers, we get paid for it and that's brilliant. The way we got to where we are is one way of doing it. Others will have different paths, let them make their own mistakes. If any pro on here is concerned by free / cheap weddings competing with them they have bigger issues to worry about in their business. Go sort them out.

This forum is called Talk Photography, lets keep it that way. Personally I think the business section was a step in the wrong direction, which has led us here. Let's get back to photography.
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some very good points well made !
 
WeddingHack said:
That's why I'm here, it's a place for me to share my personal stuff, contribute to some threads when I have time, share some knowledge and learnings I've made. I think I've only ever posted my wedding work up twice, once a LMPA panel, and a slideshow to demonstrate my learnings from a workshop. Personally I don't think a public forum is the appropriate place to be displaying a clients paid work for comment.

Aspiring wedding photographers, this is NOT the best place to be seeking your knowledge. Go find the pro forums, several of them have student or aspiring sections that you can join. THEY WILL COST YOU MONEY TO JOIN. Want a business ? Start investing in it.

I ain't going to tell you where they are, if you can't find them then you probably don't deserve to be a wedding tog.

If you want a business, do it any way you want - it's your own business and no-one else's. Free weddings, cheap weddings, shoot everything on a fisheye, go on courses, jump straight in, whatever. Your business will succeed or fail on it merits and your abilities. Ask on here and you'll get a hundred answers, mostly from folk that have never shot a wedding, many rude, some helpful, mostly confusing.

I hate the antagonism that grows in these threads between some amateurs and some pros. Pretty soon it seems that all pros are tarred with the same brush.

Amateurs please remember that we are all photographers and that's why we're here (I hope), some of us just get paid for it, sorry about that.

Pros please remembered that we are all photographers, we get paid for it and that's brilliant. The way we got to where we are is one way of doing it. Others will have different paths, let them make their own mistakes. If any pro on here is concerned by free / cheap weddings competing with them they have bigger issues to worry about in their business. Go sort them out.

This forum is called Talk Photography, lets keep it that way. Personally I think the business section was a step in the wrong direction, which has led us here. Let's get back to photography.
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:agree: .... now can I have some :help: ??????? :D
 
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