What Are Your Views on Arming All Police Officers?

What makes you think all police officers would just be handed a gun without proper training?
I didn't say 'without proper training', I said 'basically trained', and there's a significant difference. I very much doubt there would be the necessary time, resources and suitable recruits to ensure that every PC was a fully trained anti-terrorist firearms officer. It's a bit like expecting every soldier to be trained to the same standards as the special services (SAS, etc.) Also, don't forget, specialist firearms officers aren't walking the beat alone, they work as a highly trained team.

I personally think that the resources and manpower that would be required to safely and effectively arm every PC would be better spent on preventing incidents occurring in the first place, and leave any isolated incidents to specialist units.
 
AFAIK not all the British police want to be armed.

If some think arming the UK police will cut down on instances like we saw yesterday, just look at the terrorist attacks in France where all the police (in their many different forms) are armed.
 
I had a chat with a couple of policemen whilst out walking and I asked them about arming and both said they'd rather leave the force. I think you've got to admire people who go out everyday to face gosh knows what and would rather leave than be armed. I don't what the stats are but I expect that every policeman (and I include men and women in that) can expect to be verbally and physically assaulted multiple times in the course of a career.

I can't see how we can prevent instances from occurring, as Badger says above, as I think we'd need to resort to the sort of measures we're hearing about in China with the re education and instruction of those we think me be radicalised or in danger of being and I don't think that even a controlling and human rights abusing dictatorship can prevent more hum drum stuff like marital incidents turning into serious violence and there will always be a degree of crime and gang related incidents which will require an armed response.

Until the humans evolve beyond the tendency to be extreme religious nut jobs and no longer go postal I think the only way of preventing incidents would be to have some sort of cybernetic implant which releases happy hormones when it detects the religious nut job taking over or the red mist descending.
 
I can't see how arming regular police would have helped in yesterdays incident, it looked like it was a specialist fire arms unit that turned up first anyway (as they were armed). The fact the guy was shot is not worth discussing, he was wearing what was perceived to be a bomb vest, albeit a fake, the officers on the ground at the time were not to know that.

In most European (and other) countries, police are expected to be armed. Here I think that ALL police officers should undergo regular firearms training, and if they want to, once they have passed a required standard, they may carry a side arm.

When I worked in London it wasn't rare to see armed police, even the police on the trains & stations are armed sometimes. I don't think it should be compulsory, but down to the choice of individual officers.
 
I speak from some limited personal experience here; I was once held at gunpoint by armed police (a case of mistaken identity and totally innocent but coincidental circumstance, and I didn’t blame the officers for their actions at all). Although I was standing alone with two Heckler and Koch sub-machine guns pointing at me through the open doors of a police car, I felt perfectly safe. The reason being? I knew how well those officers would have been trained to carry guns like that in the UK. I can still remember thinking ‘I hope one of them doesn’t pull the trigger, or they’re going to have some serious explaining to do!’… Funny how those thoughts stay with you!

At no time did I feel scared, despite the potential severity of the situation. Everyone remained perfectly calm and I did exactly as they instructed. My innocence was quickly established and we had a bit of a laugh and some banter about the situation afterwards. Now if that had been some basically trained, ashen-faced PC with a hand gun, I’d have probably needed a change of underwear, if I’d lived that long.

I have had a similar experience, being stopped in London by armed police believing I was a motorcyclist that had recently carried out an armed robbery. Scared the pants off of me for a few seconds until I realised that pulling the trigger was the last thing they wanted to do. Just do as they say and you'll be safe..... There were not many black 2004 GSX-R600's as they were almost all blue (signature colour) so I can thoroughly understand why the did what they did...
 
When you universally arm a police force then every policeman encountered by an armed criminal committing a crime has to be shot & killed, else the criminal risks being shot.

How do they cope in Euope? I have no idea, but every country will have it's own way of managing the fall out, both in psychological terms for the officers and in terms of dealing with mistaken identies and killing of innocent people. It's very likely that national temperament plays a part in ther management of guns generally too.
 
I didn't say 'without proper training', I said 'basically trained', and there's a significant difference. I very much doubt there would be the necessary time, resources and suitable recruits to ensure that every PC was a fully trained anti-terrorist firearms officer. It's a bit like expecting every soldier to be trained to the same standards as the special services (SAS, etc.) Also, don't forget, specialist firearms officers aren't walking the beat alone, they work as a highly trained team.

I personally think that the resources and manpower that would be required to safely and effectively arm every PC would be better spent on preventing incidents occurring in the first place, and leave any isolated incidents to specialist units.
But in the case of using firearms, I would think basic training and proper training would be one and the same. You seem to be of the delusion that there is a timescale on when police officers would be firearm trained, it would be progressive.
AFAIK not all the British police want to be armed.

If some think arming the UK police will cut down on instances like we saw yesterday, just look at the terrorist attacks in France where all the police (in their many different forms) are armed.
Why would it cut down on terrorist attacks? They are suicidal nutters intent on causing terror with no thought of being scared of being shot or killed. But by being armed the police can reduce the number of innocent deaths and injuries.
 
I may be in a minority but i often am, i enjoy watching the traffic cops, interceptors etc and i find it more disturbing that the cars are single crewed and this policeman is supposed to stop cars in the night, having no idea what he will face.
Arming cops is a reactive answer to a problem which should be caught with proactive policing, more police on the ground, CCTV is great but when the nearest officer to a violent incident is single crewed and maybe 4 miles away, we are giving offenders a head start.
Giving all officers Tazers is something i would consider.
 
I may be in a minority but i often am, i enjoy watching the traffic cops, interceptors etc and i find it more disturbing that the cars are single crewed and this policeman is supposed to stop cars in the night, having no idea what he will face.
Arming cops is a reactive answer to a problem which should be caught with proactive policing, more police on the ground, CCTV is great but when the nearest officer to a violent incident is single crewed and maybe 4 miles away, we are giving offenders a head start.
Giving all officers Tazers is something i would consider.
Agreed, one of the major problems is the shortage of police officers. The government has got rid of 21,000 of them in the last 9 years, despite the fact that the police now involve themselves in a lot of things that never used to fall under their remit, stretching resources even further.

And even if we believe political claims to bring the police back up to strength, it's worrying that just last week the government awarded a £300m contract to Babcock International Group Plc. Their role will be to provide basic training to police officers. Even if this happens, and even if Babcock do the job well, this looks very much like the thin end of the privatisation wedge to me . . .

Single crewed police cars place police officers in even greater danger, it's theoretically a good use of resources because it means that they can keep the same number of cars on the road with just half the number of officers, but apart from the increased personal risk, it isn't easy to both look around and drive at the same time. When police officers are in danger they can usually get help extremely quickly, simply by pressing and holding their orange "chicken button" but they are still expected to take grave risks.

But would guns really help, even if the majority of our existing officers were prepared to have them?
Guns (or at least the handguns that would inevitably be issued) are far from accurate and require a very high level of training to make them even useful. The Glock 17 has the advantage of holding 17 rounds, it's light in weight and very cheap, but it suffers badly from recoil, so shots fired in quick succession are very likely to miss. They're OK on a range, with nobody shooting back and plenty of time, the problems arise when they need to be used in an emergency. Personally I've never had to shoot at a target that wants to kill me, but I have had to shoot animals that have been writing in agony, and that's difficult to do quickly. The effective reasonably accurate operating range of a handgun is only about 5m, what the media like to call "point blank" although point blanc actually means something very different.

I would think basic training and proper training would be one and the same.
I can't agree with this. The specialist police firearms units are largely trained in police procedures and containment of threat. They don't get a lot of actual practice and their standard falls way below that of both military and enthusiast civilian training. I don't claim to have anything special in the way of firearms competence, but even I fire around 200 rounds each year from my rifles, way more than the police, plus around 10,000 shotgun cartridges. That's what's needed for accurate shooting that reduces the risk of civilian casualties.
 
But in the case of using firearms, I would think basic training and proper training would be one and the same. You seem to be of the delusion that there is a timescale on when police officers would be firearm trained, it would be progressive.

I'm under no delusions at all. How long do you think it would take to train all police officers to fully trained anti-terrorist firearms officer standard (and keep them up to date with practice), and to source replacements for all those who didn't make the grade and/or did not wish to take on this role? It's not practical.

So, if all police officers were to be armed, then the training would almost certainly have to be to a lesser standard, and the kit and equipment (have you seen what the specialist anti-terrorist officers wear and carry, and drive?) would also be minimal; a hand gun in a holster, most likely without any additional clips of ammunition.

Also, have you seen the size of some police officers these days? Gone are the days when they had to be 6 feet + tall and not need spectacles. What if a couple of knife carrying terrorists manage to overpower a slightly-built PC and grab their gun before they've even had time to draw it? Or perhaps even deliberately target a slightly built PC with the aim of obtaining a gun? Nip up behind them and knock them on the head and you can now do a lot more damage than you could with a kitchen knife. I say leave it to specialist anti-terrorist firearms units, as they seem to be doing a pretty good job at the moment.
 
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I'm under no delusions at all. How long do you think it would take to train all police officers to fully trained anti-terrorist firearms officer standard (and keep them up to date with practice), and to source replacements for all those who didn't make the grade and/or did not wish to take on this role? It's not practical.

So, if all police officers were to be armed, then the training would almost certainly have to be to a lesser standard, and the kit and equipment (have you seen what the specialist anti-terrorist officers wear and carry, and drive?) would also be minimal; a hand gun in a holster, most likely without any additional clips of ammunition.

Also, have you seen the size of some police officers these days? Gone are the days when they had to be 6 feet + tall and not need spectacles. What if a couple of knife carrying terrorists manage to overpower a slightly-built PC and grab their gun before they've even had time to draw it? Or perhaps even deliberately target a slightly built PC with the aim of obtaining a gun? Nip up behind them and knock them on the head and you can now do a lot more damage than you could with a kitchen knife. I say leave it to specialist anti-terrorist firearms units, as they seem to be doing a pretty good job at the moment.
Anti terrorist police are just like regular police, they don't have eyes in the back of their heads. A terrorist could attack them from behind in attempt to get hold of their gun, just as much as a regular officer.
 
Double post
 
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Anti terrorist police are just like regular police, they don't have eyes in the back of their heads. A terrorist could attack them from behind in attempt to get hold of their gun, just as much as a regular officer.
You really don't understand the difference between how regular police officers and specialist anti-terrorist firearms units operate, do you? So I'm afraid there's not much point in me continuing this discussion with you.
 
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This should not even be a government led thing - it should be down to the police pure and simple. If they feel they need to be armed they should,.
 
You really don't understand the difference between how regular police officers and specialist anti-terrorist firearms units operate, do you? So I'm afraid there's not much point in me continuing this discussion with you.
Having seen anti terrorist police as well as regular police in attendance at the London Stadium several years ago when the country was on high alert, I have a fairly good idea thanks.
Retraining for regular officers would take place for them to carry firearms.
 
This should not even be a government led thing - it should be down to the police pure and simple. If they feel they need to be armed they should,.
It would still need to be sanctioned in parliament.
 
This should not even be a government led thing - it should be down to the police pure and simple. If they feel they need to be armed they should,.

It would require changes in legislation.
 
It would require changes in legislation.
Changes to legislation would be a very simple matter, compared to the changes that would be needed within the police itself. The vast majority of police officers have stated, time and time again, that they don't want to carry arms. They joined up to be "citizens in uniform" as per Peel, and not to be an armed arm of government. It would take many years, and probably several generations, to get to the point where the basic attitude of the police had changed.

Arming more and more police, over time, is obviously inevitable, but that's very different from arming all of them.
 
Changes to legislation would be a very simple matter, compared to the changes that would be needed within the police itself. The vast majority of police officers have stated, time and time again, that they don't want to carry arms. They joined up to be "citizens in uniform" as per Peel, and not to be an armed arm of government. It would take many years, and probably several generations, to get to the point where the basic attitude of the police had changed.

Arming more and more police, over time, is obviously inevitable, but that's very different from arming all of them.

Police officers are employees. It is for them to do as directed and not make policy decisions. If the nature of policing is changed by the general issue of firearms then those that don't like it can leave or be employed in non front line duties.
If I was a police officer I would not want to be armed simply because I would not want to be subjected the OTT investigation after every incident.
 
Stephen House started arming officers performing routine duties when he was Chief Constable of Police Scotland a few years ago. There was a lot of criticism by the public and the Scottish Parliament and he was eventually forced to cancel this 'experiment'.

House subsequently ended his contract early after a couple of other failures, including a 72 hour delay in responding to a report of a car which had crashed down an embankment next to the M9 motorway. The driver was dead and his passenger later died of her injuries.

He is now Deputy Commissioner of the Met. I have always suspected that he was protected by the establishment, and possibly told, or encouraged, to arm his officers to test the reaction of the public in Scotland rather than in a major metropolitan force.
 
I don't want to see coppers carrying guns, some of them would probably shoot there own toes off they are that dim. I want to see more traffic police clamping down on speeding drivers although if they had a gun they could I suppose kneecap the really bad ones.
 
If HMG did arm all police you can guarantee HMG would not provide any extra money for their training and so on. We have the example of the heavily cut/under-funded prison/probation/etc/etc services while the PM is promising heavier sentences etc but is on record not wanting to provide money de-radicalisation programs etc.
 
No
There are very, very few crimes committed in this country that require a police officer to be armed, and fewer in my part of the country...

Exactly !
 
I don't want to see coppers carrying guns, some of them would probably shoot there own toes off they are that dim. I want to see more traffic police clamping down on speeding drivers although if they had a gun they could I suppose kneecap the really bad ones.

Why?

Speeding is (on this report I found) the 10th factor in accidents - Surely the focus should be on trying to address the other ones?

Using the latest statistics from the Department for Transport, RegTransfers has researched the top causes of road accidents – here is a breakdown of the top 10 that occur in a year throughout Britain:

  1. Driver failed to look properly – 42,189 accidents reported
  2. Driver failed to judge other person’s path or speed – 21,211 accidents reported
  3. Driver was careless, reckless or in a hurry – 17,845 accidents reported
  4. Driver had poor turn or maneuver – 15,560 accidents reported
  5. Loss of control – 12,151 accidents reported
  6. Pedestrian failed to look properly – 8,687 accidents reported
  7. Slippery road surface – 7,327 accidents reported
  8. Driver was travelling too fast for conditions – 6,468 accidents reported
  9. Driver was following too close – 6,040 accidents reported
  10. Driver was exceeding speed limit – 5,102 accidents reported
 
Why?

Speeding is (on this report I found) the 10th factor in accidents - Surely the focus should be on trying to address the other ones?

Using the latest statistics from the Department for Transport, RegTransfers has researched the top causes of road accidents – here is a breakdown of the top 10 that occur in a year throughout Britain:

  1. Driver failed to look properly – 42,189 accidents reported
  2. Driver failed to judge other person’s path or speed – 21,211 accidents reported
  3. Driver was careless, reckless or in a hurry – 17,845 accidents reported
  4. Driver had poor turn or maneuver – 15,560 accidents reported
  5. Loss of control – 12,151 accidents reported
  6. Pedestrian failed to look properly – 8,687 accidents reported
  7. Slippery road surface – 7,327 accidents reported
  8. Driver was travelling too fast for conditions – 6,468 accidents reported
  9. Driver was following too close – 6,040 accidents reported
  10. Driver was exceeding speed limit – 5,102 accidents reported


There's more than one of those that's down to "appropriate speed" (the last 3 at least), and that's from somebody that doesn't like hanging about....
 
The top 5 all appear to be variations on a DWDCA theme.

Talking to a group of traffic plod a couple of years ago, it seems that their numbers have been reduced a LOT to be replaced by far fewer (more expensive to train and equip) armed response units. 20 or so years ago there were in excess of 200 traffic cops in Devon and Cornwall, now there are 20. Covering the same area as before. Mostly doing investigations of RTCs or on escort duties.
 
Why?

Speeding is (on this report I found) the 10th factor in accidents - Surely the focus should be on trying to address the other ones?

Using the latest statistics from the Department for Transport, RegTransfers has researched the top causes of road accidents – here is a breakdown of the top 10 that occur in a year throughout Britain:

  1. Driver failed to look properly – 42,189 accidents reported
  2. Driver failed to judge other person’s path or speed – 21,211 accidents reported
  3. Driver was careless, reckless or in a hurry – 17,845 accidents reported
  4. Driver had poor turn or maneuver – 15,560 accidents reported
  5. Loss of control – 12,151 accidents reported
  6. Pedestrian failed to look properly – 8,687 accidents reported
  7. Slippery road surface – 7,327 accidents reported
  8. Driver was travelling too fast for conditions – 6,468 accidents reported
  9. Driver was following too close – 6,040 accidents reported
  10. Driver was exceeding speed limit – 5,102 accidents reported
All 10 of these fall into the category usually announced as ‘speed was a factor’ which never fails to annoy me because unless it’s a collision between two stationary objects, speed is always a factor :cool:.
 
Considering the fact that amphetamines were developed to improve military performance, surely speed should improve drivers' performance too? ;) :p
 
All 10 of these fall into the category usually announced as ‘speed was a factor’ which never fails to annoy me because unless it’s a collision between two stationary objects, speed is always a factor :cool:.

True but that is not the offence of speeding. I could do 70mph and not be breaking the speed limit on a dual carriageway, yet it could be virtually nil visibility and icy - which would then be too fast for conditions - different offence!
 
True but that is not the offence of speeding. I could do 70mph and not be breaking the speed limit on a dual carriageway, yet it could be virtually nil visibility and icy - which would then be too fast for conditions - different offence!
I did realise some some are referring ’speeding’ as breaking the speed limit. I think it’s not very helpful since it could occur at 5mph :D.
 
I know an armed response officer who has handed his licence back in and moved to other duties. The stress over the possible s***-storm of using the gun became too much. Other officers I know have stated there is no chance they'd accept working armed.
 
I know an armed response officer who has handed his licence back in and moved to other duties. The stress over the possible s***-storm of using the gun became too much. Other officers I know have stated there is no chance they'd accept working armed.

Yes, the most memorable fact from Friday's events is that an officer walked up to a restrained person on the ground and shot him dead. IMO totally the right thing to do given the circumstances and information he had at the time - but I can't imagine the level of training and personal qualities you need to make that decision that quickly.
 
Yes, the most memorable fact from Friday's events is that an officer walked up to a restrained person on the ground and shot him dead. IMO totally the right thing to do given the circumstances and information he had at the time - but I can't imagine the level of training and personal qualities you need to make that decision that quickly.
What you say is true except Khan wasn’t restrained when shot. But the accounts so far say that Khan opened his coat to display the ‘suicide vest’ so he was a direct threat to the police and others. It’s arguable that was ‘suicide by cop’. However, I still think it’s a bit early to be sure of all the facts.
 
What you say is true except Khan wasn’t restrained when shot. But the accounts so far say that Khan opened his coat to display the ‘suicide vest’ so he was a direct threat to the police and others. It’s arguable that was ‘suicide by cop’. However, I still think it’s a bit early to be sure of all the facts.

I read it as that the police told the people restraining him to back off when they noticed the vest, and then shot him. I assume in case it detonated when they shot him.
 
I read it as that the police told the people restraining him to back off when they noticed the vest, and then shot him. I assume in case it detonated when they shot him.
It’s hard to tell, but at the time I heard at one witness (on the bus?) say he opened his jacket. There was certainly video of police aiming at him (he was moving) from some distance, while backing away. But it’s really hard to know what happened unless you are on the ground investigating and reading statements!
 
I may be in a minority but i often am, i enjoy watching the traffic cops, interceptors etc and i find it more disturbing that the cars are single crewed and this policeman is supposed to stop cars in the night, having no idea what he will face.
Arming cops is a reactive answer to a problem which should be caught with proactive policing, more police on the ground, CCTV is great but when the nearest officer to a violent incident is single crewed and maybe 4 miles away, we are giving offenders a head start.
Giving all officers Tazers is something i would consider.

Not about arming police but a couple of posts have deviated from the thread title.

I watch those programmes too, Mike. What does bother me is what I consider to be inadequate sentencing considering the seriousness of the conduct of offenders in relation to ‘fail to stop’ traffic incidents. As you’ll have seen, cars are driven in excess of 70mph in built-up areas, wrong side of bollards, over central reservations, through red lights, dangerous overtaking etc etc and they get a driving ban and a fine. I’d have thought a custodial sentence would have been appropriate. You’ll probably be aware that magistrates can impose such a sentence for 6 months but only for one offence . In other circumstances..12 months..or if they feel that’s inadequate they will refer the case to Crown Court.

Re Tasers..this article is dated August 24th. this year..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49405999
 
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