What Are Your Views on Arming All Police Officers?

Not about arming police but a couple of posts have deviated from the thread title.

I watch those programmes too, Mike. What does bother me is what I consider to be inadequate sentencing considering the seriousness of the conduct of offenders in relation to ‘fail to stop’ traffic incidents. As you’ll have seen, cars are driven in excess of 70mph in built-up areas, wrong side of bollards, over central reservations, through red lights, dangerous overtaking etc etc and they get a driving ban and a fine. I’d have thought a custodial sentence would have been appropriate. You’ll probably be aware that magistrates can impose such a sentence for 6 months but only for one offence . In other circumstances..12 months..or if they feel that’s inadequate they will refer the case to Crown Court.

Re Tasers..this article is dated August 24th. this year..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49405999
Re Tasers, I’ve no expertise in this but I would expect them to be no use for self defence at close range against someone with a knife. When that unarmed policeman at Houses of Parliament was killed I thought he should have had a longish stun baton but again, I’ve no expertise.
 
In light of today’s events do you think it’s time to arm all police?

No - but that's because there's no way that every current police officer is mentally and emotionally stable enough to handle that responsibiluty and that makes some of those who would become armed to be a potential threat to both themselves and others

What difference would it have made to today's events?

Well in tjis particular incident given the venue where it started I would have expected a poluceman to be in the immediate vicinity of the initial incident.....

In some ways, yes they should be, let’s be honest normal law abiding citizens going about our daily business are very, very unlikely to ever see or know they are armed.

<snip>

I do believe we need more armed units, properly trained and their sole purpose is to be armed response, so yes technically more armed police but holding the professional training, not just all.

how on earth will we NOT be aware they are armed?


No problem.

Garry has a long history of not liking certain elements of the police regarding firearms and I find it a disgrace that he can come on social media and start offering thinly veiled criticism of very brave people today.

The public involved did an awesome job as did the officers staring at an explosive device attached to a terrorist attacker.

This is not the time for cheap point scoring - to do so is an absolute disgrace

Mike

Whilst not wishing to really criticise the actions of the members of the public who confronted the attacker - it could have been a VERY different outcome if the vest had not been a fake.

Also if you look at the video - the man who extracts himself from the group on the ground walks away towards members of the public CARRYING A/THE knife - he is lucky not to have been shot himself......

In addition I wasn't sure that the initial actions of the first armed officer to approach the group were entirely appropriate - given thst he grabs ine if the subduers and pulks him away from the attacker in the ground potentially (and actually if you believe some witness statements - this allowed the attacker enough freedom if movement to open his coat and potentially detinate the vest or access to another weapon - personally I think that he had grounds to shoot the attacker first to negate the threat and then sort out the civilian responders afterwards

Police are human, not everyone can cope with the outcome of a death they caused, however justifiable - consider the number of soldiers with PTSD. Arming all police isn't good for public safety or for the police, leave it to the specialists. A friend of mine, now retired, was on an armed response unit and he doesn't think it's a good idea either.

Exactly and also as I said above not all police are even suitable or capable of the responsibility of being armed in the first place and what happens to those ifficers who would now no longer be capable of serving?


No
There are very, very few crimes committed in this country that require a police officer to be armed, and fewer in my part of the country...

It's the fact that potentially every police engagement might require an armed response which needs to be considered also - what about the recent death of a young policeman responding to a suspected burglary?


I don't see how it's needed, it took 5 minutes from the incident starting to him being shot dead by the armed police. Can't see that timeline being any shorter even if every officer was armed.

Not all violent crimes occur in such well policed areas with a high percentage of armed response units....


What makes you think all police officers would just be handed a gun without proper training?

What makes you think that they wouldn't or that they would only be after passing the same set of exhaustive mental and physical tests as current armed officers are required to do?


As yesterday’s attacker was seemingly disarmed by the public with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher in the first instance why bother with fire arms....


Because not all such incidents will occur where there is a handy extinguisher and narwhal tusk? ;)
 
It's the fact that potentially every police engagement might require an armed response which needs to be considered also - what about the recent death of a young policeman responding to a suspected burglary?

I cry b*****ks. It's not a 'fact'.

What are your sources for this statement?
 
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Also if you look at the video - the man who extracts himself from the group on the ground walks away towards members of the public CARRYING A/THE knife - he is lucky not to have been shot himself......
Yes, I was watching that early on and I decided the logical explanation of what I was looking at was that the knife was his—- he could have been a passing chef for example — otherwise I couldn’t see why he didn’t drop the knife, once clear. When we found he was an of—duty/plain clothes cop I was even more surprised he didn’t drop it!
 

Because every interaction has an unknown element of intent and capacity for violence whether it be a "simple " Road traffic stop or responding to a domestic violence call or a stop and search for drugs or knives etc. - I suppose that I could technically have qualified it as potentially criminal interactions but some non-criminal interactions also pose potential for officer harm
 
I think in all these discussions we have to decide where our priorities lie. Most importantly: do we want as many of our citizens to be safe as possible or do we want to follow the obsession of "freedom"? My own view is that a balance has to be struck and we haven't yet got that balance right.
 
When they were last asked in 2017, about 2/3 of officers did not think they should be routinely armed. There is a long tradition of policing by consent rather than force that has served us well, using armed units only when absolutely necessary. From what we know of the latest terrorist incident, armed police intervened as rapidly as anyone could reasonably expect, and performed their difficult duty immediately. In the face of this type of attack, it's hard to see how there could have been a more effective response. No more lives could have been saved at the scene of the murders, an indoor event where no officers were on duty, armed or otherwise.
 
When they were last asked in 2017, about 2/3 of officers did not think they should be routinely armed. There is a long tradition of policing by consent rather than force that has served us well, using armed units only when absolutely necessary. From what we know of the latest terrorist incident, armed police intervened as rapidly as anyone could reasonably expect, and performed their difficult duty immediately. In the face of this type of attack, it's hard to see how there could have been a more effective response. No more lives could have been saved at the scene of the murders, an indoor event where no officers were on duty, armed or otherwise.
Also they are little defence against a truck etc. The attackers don’t generally choose area where police are present (IRA an exception to this where they targeted police).
 
I am sure it used to be the case that armed police either stayed at base awaiting to be called to a relevant incident, or patrolled high risk areas, but round this way armed police are now being used for day to day policing to pick up the slack.

At the beginning of the year my dad was involved in an RTC where he hit a pedestrian (not his fault), it was armed police that arrived to control the traffic and do what they do until the ambulance arrived. Seemed like a strong response for an RTC, but chatting with them at the time they told me they are out on patrol just like any other copper these days.
 
I am sure it used to be the case that armed police either stayed at base awaiting to be called to a relevant incident, or patrolled high risk areas, but round this way armed police are now being used for day to day policing to pick up the slack.

At the beginning of the year my dad was involved in an RTC where he hit a pedestrian (not his fault), it was armed police that arrived to control the traffic and do what they do until the ambulance arrived. Seemed like a strong response for an RTC, but chatting with them at the time they told me they are out on patrol just like any other copper these days.
I think that’s the right way to do it, albeit for the wrong reasons.
 

I was thinking exactly the same :) I can't imagine a taser being any more "ready to fire" than a handgun when it is holstered.

[For the benefit of anybody like me suffering 3's ridiculous nanny filter you can read about the 21 foot rule aka Tueller Drill here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill - you'll be happy to know that Mythbusters have checked this.]

I suppose the main difference is you could get away with firing a taser "too early" because you're unlikely to kill the person. But yeah, inside 21 feet you need to practise drawing while running backwards.
 
I was thinking exactly the same :) I can't imagine a taser being any more "ready to fire" than a handgun when it is holstered.

[For the benefit of anybody like me suffering 3's ridiculous nanny filter you can read about the 21 foot rule aka Tueller Drill here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill - you'll be happy to know that Mythbusters have checked this.]

I suppose the main difference is you could get away with firing a taser "too early" because you're unlikely to kill the person. But yeah, inside 21 feet you need to practise drawing while running backwards.
Prepared to be contradicted, but AFAIK to stop someone with a knife charging you who may also be wearing some protective clothing, would take something like a short barrelled shotgun + slug. To avoid injury you would need something to stop them and ideally knock them over.
 
A lot of money has gone into non-lethal weapon research since the 1960s but nothing has emerged with the stopping power of a firearm. I suspect that the answer will come from an unexpected source.
 
A lot of money has gone into non-lethal weapon research since the 1960s but nothing has emerged with the stopping power of a firearm. I suspect that the answer will come from an unexpected source.
Non lethal, my suggestion (not sure if practical) would be something like a vehicle air bag in a baton, perhaps with a sticky surface or a net. Ah, net, the Roman Retarius gladiator with trident and net maybe sugests an answer :confused:.
 
Apart from arming police how about equipping police cars with drones that could land on the roof of speeding criminals’ cars and film/track them so the police could follow in a more relaxed fashion.
 
Non lethal, my suggestion (not sure if practical) would be something like a vehicle air bag in a baton

Yeah, I think you might fall foul of the 3rd law of motion with that one.

But this is way more fun than talking about arming the police. Assuming guns are out - what would you arm them with? The net thing sounds cool.
 
Prepared to be contradicted, but AFAIK to stop someone with a knife charging you who may also be wearing some protective clothing, would take something like a short barrelled shotgun + slug. To avoid injury you would need something to stop them and ideally knock them over.

You're wrong :)
 
Prepared to be contradicted, but AFAIK to stop someone with a knife charging you who may also be wearing some protective clothing, would take something like a short barrelled shotgun + slug. To avoid injury you would need something to stop them and ideally knock them over.

Stop thinking "centre of body mass" as the only target area for firearms.......

Though even with centre mass targeting with a firearm on a protective vest wearing assailant it will still have considerable albeit non-lethal stopping/stunning power due to the kinetic energy involved - to an extent somewhat dependant on the actual range, firearm, cartridge load, bullet profile etc. - And of course thats if the bullets are not suitably coated to be vest piercing.....

....also think about things like a baseball bat

Jim
 
You're wrong :)
OK, how about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_gun . According to Wiki “During World War I, both the British and Germans deployed elephant guns obtained from their African colonies in an attempt to break the stalemate in the trenches. The British used elephant guns as a means of countering the German tactic of having their snipers advance towards Allied lines under the cover of a large, 6–10 millimeter (0.24–0.4 inch) thick steel plate. Though normal small arms were ineffective against the plate, the elephant guns of the era had enough force to punch through it.”
 
Stop thinking "centre of body mass" as the only target area for firearms.......

Though even with centre mass targeting with a firearm on a protective vest wearing assailant it will still have considerable albeit non-lethal stopping/stunning power due to the kinetic energy involved - to an extent somewhat dependant on the actual range, firearm, cartridge load, bullet profile etc. - And of course thats if the bullets are not suitably coated to be vest piercing.....

....also think about things like a baseball bat

Jim
Baseball bat good, and possibly works (if swung) against 2 men with knives for a limited time.
 
One thing to consider is that taping knives to hands/wrists seems to be the weapon of choice for the current batch of loonies. That may make them vulnerable in some way.
 
OK, how about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_gun . According to Wiki “During World War I, both the British and Germans deployed elephant guns obtained from their African colonies in an attempt to break the stalemate in the trenches. The British used elephant guns as a means of countering the German tactic of having their snipers advance towards Allied lines under the cover of a large, 6–10 millimeter (0.24–0.4 inch) thick steel plate. Though normal small arms were ineffective against the plate, the elephant guns of the era had enough force to punch through it.”

Yes, I think they used the .600 NE and possibly the .577 NE; but both are a bit unwieldy for street use! :D
 
Returning to the Fishmongers Hall attack which sparked this all off, my thoughts at the time, seeing a photo of the attendees seated in a square, was ’chairs’. If several had and acted in unison using chairs, they may have knocked him over.

Following my earlier classical reference one could develop this method with those interlocking chairs an call it forming an Ericus (hedgehog) in analogy with the Roman military Testudo formed with shields.

The people who drove him out used a pole, a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher. Given it was the Fishmongers, the Pole with the pole (yes, it was) was unlucky it wasn’t some sort of gaff with a spike or a hook at the end.
 
And the case of the evil Mark Duggan has reared it’s ugly head again:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ting-report-challenged-by-human-rights-groups
New forensic methods are claimed to show the gun, if thrown, was within the officers’ ‘field of vision’. The problem I have with that is that you do not always ‘see’ things that are within your field of vision. Everything is processed and interpreted by the brain.

I rembrr that when it happened the early photos of him from his Facebook page showed him posing as a shooter with his hand and fingers mimicking a pistol. I’ve never seen that photo used again.
 
And the case of the evil Mark Duggan has reared it’s ugly head again:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ting-report-challenged-by-human-rights-groups
New forensic methods are claimed to show the gun, if thrown, was within the officers’ ‘field of vision’. The problem I have with that is that you do not always ‘see’ things that are within your field of vision. Everything is processed and interpreted by the brain.

I rembrr that when it happened the early photos of him from his Facebook page showed him posing as a shooter with his hand and fingers mimicking a pistol. I’ve never seen that photo used again.

...and how can they claim this when you have to take this

https://www.healthcentral.com/article/anxiety-and-vision-problems

Into account? (n)

Jim
 
...and how can they claim this when you have to take this

https://www.healthcentral.com/article/anxiety-and-vision-problems

Into account? (n)

Jim
I don’t know. I think there’s no dispute Duggan had been to buy a pistol and had it in the car, his prints/dna were on the box. There was no trace of him on the gun but he presumably was conscious of not leaving traces on guns so I discount that - he used a cloth to handle it if not gloves. It’s possible the police made a split second error but in all the circumstances that seems unimportant.
Didn't his family organise a march on the local police station too? Nice people!
 
Didn't his family organise a march on the local police station too? Nice people!
It seems to be SOP for the families of criminals who come to a sticky end these days. "He was a loving son and a great dad" is part of the boilerplate used by too many newspapers. I imagine a list of convictions and statements by his victims wouldn't have quite the same effect. :thinking:
 
Why?

Speeding is (on this report I found) the 10th factor in accidents - Surely the focus should be on trying to address the other ones?

Using the latest statistics from the Department for Transport, RegTransfers has researched the top causes of road accidents – here is a breakdown of the top 10 that occur in a year throughout Britain:

  1. Driver failed to look properly – 42,189 accidents reported
  2. Driver failed to judge other person’s path or speed – 21,211 accidents reported
  3. Driver was careless, reckless or in a hurry – 17,845 accidents reported
  4. Driver had poor turn or maneuver – 15,560 accidents reported
  5. Loss of control – 12,151 accidents reported
  6. Pedestrian failed to look properly – 8,687 accidents reported
  7. Slippery road surface – 7,327 accidents reported
  8. Driver was travelling too fast for conditions – 6,468 accidents reported
  9. Driver was following too close – 6,040 accidents reported
  10. Driver was exceeding speed limit – 5,102 accidents reported

That's confusing Factor and Cause. Quite different.
 
Less police would need armed if they stopped letting people out of jail early who go on to commit crimes like this, life should mean life and stop taking time off sentences for pleading guilty etc.
 
Less police would need armed if they stopped letting people out of jail early who go on to commit crimes like this, life should mean life and stop taking time off sentences for pleading guilty etc.
Without proper rehabilitation services, longer sentences won't stop re-offending, or in this case going on a killing spree, it just kicks the can down the road.
 
Less police would need armed if they stopped letting people out of jail early who go on to commit crimes like this, life should mean life and stop taking time off sentences for pleading guilty etc.
Or stopped putting minor criminals gaol where they learn how to become major ones ;).
 
I don’t know. I think there’s no dispute Duggan had been to buy a pistol and had it in the car, his prints/dna were on the box. There was no trace of him on the gun but he presumably was conscious of not leaving traces on guns so I discount that - he used a cloth to handle it if not gloves. It’s possible the police made a split second error but in all the circumstances that seems unimportant.
Didn't his family organise a march on the local police station too? Nice people!

There was a piece on the radio some time ago about forensics and one thing they talked about was police dramas where they find fingerprints on guns and apparently this is very rare as, as far as I remember, they said that the gun and grip aren't finger print friendly and any prints present at all tend to be smudged and effectively useless for identification purposes. If that's true perhaps phrases like "no traces on the gun" need clarifying and placed into context.
 
It seems to be SOP for the families of criminals who come to a sticky end these days. "He was a loving son and a great dad" is part of the boilerplate used by too many newspapers. I imagine a list of convictions and statements by his victims wouldn't have quite the same effect. :thinking:

Yup. The predatory violent scumbag is often transformed into the loving partner, parent and general diamond geezer. The fact that the family and some if not all friends would know what a thieving violent scumbag he really was speaks of their own character which is to be expected as scumbags tend to be surrounded by scumbags. The more disappointing aspect for me is that media broadcast the good character references uncontested.

I'd love to see the following... Weeping Heffalump with tearstained makeup... "He was the love of my life and a brilliant dad, he wouldn't hurt a fly and didn't deserve this." Interviewer "He was a violent career criminal who prayed on elderly victims and had a list of convictions as long as your arm. You must have known all of this and yet you stood by him." It'll never happen.
 
There was a piece on the radio some time ago about forensics and one thing they talked about was police dramas where they find fingerprints on guns and apparently this is very rare as, as far as I remember, they said that the gun and grip aren't finger print friendly and any prints present at all tend to be smudged and effectively useless for identification purposes. If that's true perhaps phrases like "no traces on the gun" need clarifying and placed into context.
Yes, though ‘trace’ could refer to DNA (which I think tied him to the box the gun was in, not sure though).
 
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