Critique : What do we want here?

How do you want people to respond to your pictures?

  • "Great work" (regardless of how good/bad it is).

  • I only want to know what people think if it's good.

  • I want to hear the good and the bad, so I can learn from it.

  • Nobody here is good enough to critique me.

  • Don't ask me, I just Googled 'Tits' and ended-up here. :-(

Results are only viewable after voting.
FourRingCircus

FourRingCircus

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1,949
Name
John
Edit My Images
Yes
Some honesty perhaps???:confused:

In light of apparent offence being taken by nameless individuals in this section, I feel it's prudent to seek some clarity as to what is expected from a forum entitled:

> Photo Genres Discussion & Critique > Nature > Photos : Birds

It might also be worth noting the definition of 'critique':

A critical evaluation or analysis, especially one dealing with works of art or literature.

In order to give a valuable critique, one does not need to be an expert in the subject matter. The eye sees what the eye sees, and many people can see different things in the same photograph. However, some knowledge in the technical aspects of photography can add significantly to the critique being offered.

There are a plethroa of (social network?) sites where people can post images for ego massaging, so I don't understand anyone posting everything they shoot here, just for people to come along and tell them how wonderful they are. Unless, of course, they have no mates to show their photos to on other sites in the first place......:rolleyes:

So, unless I'm mistaken, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to post their (better) pictures up for critical evaluation and, where possible, a discussion with their peers as to how they could improve. This 'improvement' may simply be a re-crop of a great image, all the way through to a suggestion the photographer takes-up golf instead.

On a personal level, I simply can't understand what anyone gains from making a post with less than five words. If something is indeed a great capture, you really owe it to the OP to say why you find it so fantastic. I was a supporter of the 'like button' and I stand by that move. The only possible reason to post a sub-five word salute (rather than hit the like button) is to see your own little avitar on a thread with a half decent photo.

The forum can be read my many more than just the few who actaully post something meaningful. Perhaps those who are less willing to strike the keyboard should be considered in your replies. A new photographer to the genre may not see why something is a good shot. They learn nothing from seeing a page of sycophantic drivel, without an explaination of why a shot is good.

Make your choice in the poll, but please be honest.:naughty:
 
Unfortunately John you'll always get the kiss @rse type who cannot stand to have even the slightest negative albeit constructive criticism of their pictures. Some folk on the other hand are just clueless as to what makes a technically good photograph and opt for the "cracking picture" option without really understanding why the pic is or as the case may be, not a cracking take. Then you have the type who'll post any old pish to get their post count up. That proves sod all.
 
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I agree in part with Brash that some people don't have a clue what makes a technically good photo. I also think some go the other way and have no clue about what makes a good photo because they rely on an only technical critique.
The thing that annoys me about the critique in here at times is that some give it, but they sure can't take it.
 
When I post an image I do so because I want to know what others, far more skilled than I am, think about my effort and to comment as John has described. What frustrates me is often nobody can be bothered to comment at all so how can I learn?
 
As i have just pointed out in "the other thread", i have been asking for critique for the past year or so, and greatly appreciate all the comments i have been given, i don't necessarily always agree with all of the comments, but i certainly don't spit my dummy out over them ;)

But overall, i have found the critique and tips very useful in this section of TP and i hope it has helped me improve my craft over the past year
 
I certainly have learned from advise / critique give, I may not like what some say but I sit back and read again.

Some may be right some may be wrong but I wouldn't know unless I show :)

How about a critique section & a graded section ie like school ( A+, B , C+ ect )

Everybody is different I saw a set by somebody (10000+ post) that everyone was saying was the busy knees and most probably is but
Did nothing for me :-( so I did not post.

I took a few of my little one & posted up, I learnt a lot from that and now have some images that I'm now proud to show.
 
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We should grade all images - on "likes" ............................from 1 Robin to 10 Robins

The image with the most Robins at the end of each month gets the title "Image of the month" badge

to quote our resident Robin aficionado

"End of"
 
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The next question is a more difficult one.:eek:

In this particular forum section, do we only proffer critique if a person uses the 'Critique' prefix in the post???

If it's prefixed 'Wild', Captive' or no prefix is chosen at all (as in most cases), do way say nothing? I mean, if everything here is for critique, why have a critique prefix?:confused:

And if you're posting here for something other than critique, what the hell is it???:thinking: :wave:
 
You missed one option - should we have a WI section?
 
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Honest critique is fine and helpful but unless you are really qualified in some way to give critique, at least be honest enough to accept that the one posting the images may see things a different way or have a particular reason to have taken the images in the way he/she did and that their opinion is as valid as yours!
It simply isn't acceptable to belittle someone because they tell you their reasons for the image being the way it is, nor is it acceptable to be rude just because you can, as you are not standing next to them.
Someone explaining the reasons behind their images being the way they are does not give you the right to accuse them of "spitting their dummy", (or one of the many similar phrases used here), just because you lack the humility to realise that someone else may have an opinion and that it could be as valid or more so than yours.
Similarly if you are given honest critique that you don't like, responding as in the recent 'Osprey' thread isn't going to come over very well either, even if you have gone to a lot of time, travel and expense to get some images that you think are great.
Just because you can be rude or thoughtless does not mean that you have to be.
Oh and one more thing ... what Pookeyhead said in the 'Sparrow' thread is very, very true, (what am I saying!), it would be very boring if we all posted the same thing ... actually another thing, nobody is going to be posting really 'original' images of any birds in here anytime soon and the fact that the same birds have been photographed the same way before does not mean that I can't photograph them again or post them here if I want to.
Let's do a lot more to make this particular part of the forum a much more friendly and helpful place. :)
 
BillN_33 said:
You missed one option - should we have a WI section?
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Despite what the Jaffa munchers may think, I'm not trying to tell them what to change, or how to change it. It's not my place to do that. I think the single biggest issue on this particular forum is that (some of) the users are a bit confused as to what it's for. Hell, I'm one of them!! I think any image put up here by an induividual, is done so because he/she wants to know what others think for the purposes of learning and improvement. There are other sections where a shot can be put if you just want some feint praise.

However, the birding community at large is not generally concerned solely with photography. If I've seen/photographed a very rare bird, I like to show it to others. I normally say that it's a record shot, not for critique, and the Black Winged Pratincole was a prime example of this. Of course, I'm also perfectly happy to see a poor photograph of a rare bird from others without jumping down their throat for a poor shot.

Let's face it, none of us need/want to see a pi$$ poor shot of a garden bird on a feeder, BUT, we probably all started that way.

I do think the layout of this particular section has a lot to answer-for, in respect of the tension which often abounds.

From the poll answers thus far, there is a near majority who want to hear the good and the bad. The others were looking for something entirely different!!

Maybe we do need some Admin intervention as to what the forum is actually for. My own thoughts are there should simply be two mandatory prefixes: Birds for pleasure/interest & Birds for critique. I reckon this would solve the majority of issues.

gramps said:
Honest critique is fine and helpful but unless you are really qualified in some way to give critique, at least be honest enough to accept that the one posting the images may see things a different way or have a particular reason to have taken the images in the way he/she did and that their opinion is as valid as yours!<snip>
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As I suggested in the opening post, everybody is 'qualified' to give critique because it is based upon what they see. If you feel someone needs to be 'really qualified', then who is that person? I certainly don't have a photography degree, but I have eyes! Does this mean that a person needs to be 'really qualified' to say 'great capture' too?

I agree that rudeness for the sake of it is not helpful, but perceptions of what is rude vary enormously. For myself, 'rude' extends into an area where the remarks become personal insults. Telling somone that their photo's not that great isn't rude. Telling them they are a useless w***ker becasue their photo is crap - that's rude!

Rudeness in 'banter' is totally diffrent. 'Brash takes crap photos and is a useless w***ker!' That's just the kind of (friendly) banter that many forums thrive on.

Yes, let's be more friendly, but let's establish the ground rules first. It's not right that we have to fumble about in our own minds as to what the forum should be about. I think it is time for a tweak in the Admin side of things. We have lost far too many good (qualified?) people from this forum, potentially due to a lack of understanding about what's expected/required here on all sides.:(
 
FourRingCircus said:
As I suggested in the opening post, everybody is 'qualified' to give critique because it is based upon what they see. If you feel someone needs to be 'really qualified', then who is that person? I certainly don't have a photography degree, but I have eyes! Does this mean that a person needs to be 'really qualified' to say 'great capture' too?
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I don't think you can rightly be as pedantic as some people are on here without being 'qualified' ... everything else is purely opinion.
If someone doesn't agree with your opinion because their equally valid opinion is different, does that give you the right to respond rudely?
I have 'banter' with my friends but to speak to non-friends in the way some here speak to other members would get me into serious bother.
Just because we have the immunity of the Internet does not mean that we should be rude to others ... there really is no need unless we feel so insecure that we have to belittle others in order to boost our own insecurity.
 
gramps said:
I don't think you can rightly be as pedantic as some people are on here without being 'qualified' ... everything else is purely opinion.
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Even 'qualified' people are often giving opinions. Critique IS opinion, "end of"!!. ;)

There is no dictionary definition of 'Bird Photograph'. There are accepted 'norms', one of which is definately eye contact. I've looked through the sparrow thread which Bill mentions and whilst I totally endorse his first post in that thread, I can see why the 'bit between the teeth' style of his subsequent posts might be seen by others as a problem / antagonist. I don't know Bill and don't wish to speak for him, but I can sit on the fence and see both sides there. FWIW, I saw that sparrow post when it first arrived (without any comments) and I chose to say nothing becasue I couldn't add anything particularly positive that wouldn't have been overtly obvious.

My recent Osprey critique might be an example of the problem, as it obviously wasn't acceptable to the OP. I was reasonably pleasant, friendly, and encouraging, but the OP took it all the wrong way because he/she thought they were showing a totally stunning set of pics worthy of nothing but praise. To be fair, anyone slapping copyright notices (in bold capitals) across mediocre pics might well have an issue to start with......
 
If you walk down the street with your "flies" undone or your "willie" hanging out do you want someone to mention it to you or do you want them to look away?

not particularly appropriate but it does spring to mind when reading some of the postings on here
 
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I'm all for critique of all photos in any section of this forum, what I don't like to see is rudeness.
As someone said earlier in this thread, different eyes, different opinions. That doesn't mean it was a bad photo. That said, if people want to improve their photography then they need to post photos for criticism.
 
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BillN_33 said:
If you walk down the street with your "flies" undone or your "willie" hanging out to you want someone to mention it to you or do not want them to look away?
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Can you edit that post for gramatical sense please Bill. Take your time, put your glasses on etc.:p

While we are at is, here is a sad fact. Within ten (overnight) hours, this thread has had 162 views, but only 16 poll takers. What does this say?

My guess is that the majority come here just to look, say nothing and give nothing. :(

Mind you, a hefty percentage of overnight visitiors were Googling 'tits'........:D
 
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FourRingCircus said:
Can you edit that post for gramatical sense please Bill. Take your time, put your glasses on etc.:p

While we are at is, here is a sad fact. Within ten (overnight) hours, this thread has had 162 views, but only 16 poll takers. What does this say?

My guess is that the majority come here just to look, say nothing and give nothing. :(

Mind you, a hefty percentage of overnight visitiors were Googling 'tits'........:D
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I have just been for a "Kimi Raikkonen" … I feel a lot better now, have seen the error of my ways and made the "edit"
 
FourRingCircus said:
Even 'qualified' people are often giving opinions. Critique IS opinion, "end of"!!. ;)

There is no dictionary definition of 'Bird Photograph'. There are accepted 'norms', one of which is definately eye contact. I've looked through the sparrow thread which Bill mentions and whilst I totally endorse his first post in that thread, I can see why the 'bit between the teeth' style of his subsequent posts might be seen by others as a problem / antagonist. I don't know Bill and don't wish to speak for him, but I can sit on the fence and see both sides there. FWIW, I saw that sparrow post when it first arrived (without any comments) and I chose to say nothing becasue I couldn't add anything particularly positive that wouldn't have been overtly obvious.

My recent Osprey critique might be an example of the problem, as it obviously wasn't acceptable to the OP. I was reasonably pleasant, friendly, and encouraging, but the OP took it all the wrong way because he/she thought they were showing a totally stunning set of pics worthy of nothing but praise. To be fair, anyone slapping copyright notices (in bold capitals) across mediocre pics might well have an issue to start with......
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I agree with you John the 'Osprey' thread was a particularly poor example of receiving critique, especially as the O/P said he would like to receive critique "good or bad". That is a stark example of when the one receiving critique is clearly in the wrong and not entering into the spirit of the forum at all ... but that isn't my issue, my issue is with the sort of comment in a recent example from one of my threads.

Critique was given and accepted by me and I explained the reasons why I actually liked the way some of my images appeared.
Another member agreed with me and I responded saying "Thanks xxx, I like an image to tell a story if possible, even if the technical aspect isn't 100%" .., to which the response from the one giving critique was...

"Remarks like that are exactly why I think there is a problem in this section and very few people now comment

This section is supposed to be a Critique section and when genuine Critique is posted and it is disliked by the OP they get upset, (poor things) and have to emphasise the fact.

All they want to hear is what a marvellous photographer that are and how their shots are just great

really is comical to observe".

Now to me that has nothing to do with giving critique, it is just a simple case of rudeness, some might call it verbal bullying, though I don't subscribe to that sort of PC stuff. It didn't add anything to the thread, the forum or the encouragement of any members engaging in the forum, it just came over as an inflated ego.
Now if you like that sort of thing in the bird forum, as a sort of entertainment like some soap opera where people attempt to demean others fine, for me it adds nothing at all and is the reason why so many contributors no longer post anything or comment here.
 
gramps said:
I agree with you John the 'Osprey' thread was a particularly poor example of receiving critique, especially as the O/P said he would like to receive critique "good or bad". That is a stark example of when the one receiving critique is clearly in the wrong and not entering into the spirit of the forum at all ... but that isn't my issue, my issue is with the sort of comment in a recent example from one of my threads.

Critique was given and accepted by me and I explained the reasons why I actually liked the way some of my images appeared.
Another member agreed with me and I responded saying "Thanks xxx, I like an image to tell a story if possible, even if the technical aspect isn't 100%" .., to which the response from the one giving critique was...

"Remarks like that are exactly why I think there is a problem in this section and very few people now comment
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He means me, but as I said …….. I will no longer comments of Roger's threads ……. no loss to the Forum, (me not commenting that is)
 
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Any photo posted in the crit section should be open for good,honest and useful crit. Don`t understand why the critique prefix was ever introduced.

We already have a photos for pleasure,non crit, section. No need to create another sub forum in here.

Just my thoughts and I am aware that others may not feel the same.

PS...the recent bitching about grammar and spelling was unnecessary.
 
STOP IT NOW!!:mad:

@gramps - I am on your side in respect of they way Bills comments came out of the blue on your puffin thread. They did appear somewhat out of context and, although I don't believe they were aimed specifically at you, they were on your thread. I started this thread specifically for this sort of discussion - not on someones photo thread.

Whilst his comments were perhaps OTT on that thread, I have to agree that the OOF Puffin with all but obscured Gull was not your finest moment. The only 'story' that told was a lack of time and a grab shot that ought to have been binned! ;)

Edit: I need to go do some work....... Talk amoungst yourselves and NO FIGHTING!!
 
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BillN_33 said:
Thanks rich …….. you made the first comment ……. which started the "amusement" going
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Take your medication Bill..............:)
 
Two things i feel about this section are,submissions should be limited to one image per thread and the other is why ask for critique and then not allow picture editing.
 
gramps said:
I agree with you John the 'Osprey' thread was a particularly poor example of receiving critique, especially as the O/P said he would like to receive critique "good or bad". That is a stark example of when the one receiving critique is clearly in the wrong and not entering into the spirit of the forum at all ... but that isn't my issue, my issue is with the sort of comment in a recent example from one of my threads.

Critique was given and accepted by me and I explained the reasons why I actually liked the way some of my images appeared.
Another member agreed with me and I responded saying "Thanks xxx, I like an image to tell a story if possible, even if the technical aspect isn't 100%" .., to which the response from the one giving critique was...

"Remarks like that are exactly why I think there is a problem in this section and very few people now comment

This section is supposed to be a Critique section and when genuine Critique is posted and it is disliked by the OP they get upset, (poor things) and have to emphasise the fact.

All they want to hear is what a marvellous photographer that are and how their shots are just great

really is comical to observe".

Now to me that has nothing to do with giving critique, it is just a simple case of rudeness, some might call it verbal bullying, though I don't subscribe to that sort of PC stuff. It didn't add anything to the thread, the forum or the encouragement of any members engaging in the forum, it just came over as an inflated ego.
Now if you like that sort of thing in the bird forum, as a sort of entertainment like some soap opera where people attempt to demean others fine, for me it adds nothing at all and is the reason why so many contributors no longer post anything or comment here.
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What he said because I have the strength of a cart horse ,the speed of a racehorse and the brains of a rocking horse and I couldn't write all that without the grammar police knocking on my door...well said Gramps as I fully agree with you......some members shots are deliberately picked out for dissection and nit picking CC and once that happens a certain few team up, and don't tell me it doesn't happen because it does ,then(imho)it becomes a wind up game were I bet the PM message board must be red hot, and I have first hand knowledge of this happening by members who no longer come on here but can tell me some good tales...............The internet is a very big place and you can choose to be anyone you want to be , but unfortunately some choose to be out and out #######
 
mikew said:
Two things i feel about this section are,submissions should be limited to one image per thread and the other is why ask for critique and then not allow picture editing.
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Not so sure i like the idea of limiting posts to one photo only

I generally post 2-4 shots (always of the same subject though) as i am not only looking for crit on each shot, but also on which shot people find the most pleasing

Limiting post to only one photo would restict people like myself who are still trying to find their feet and determine what makes a pleasing bird shot
 
FourRingCircus said:
Whilst his comments were perhaps OTT on that thread, I have to agree that the OOF Puffin with all but obscured Gull was not your finest moment. The only 'story' that told was a lack of time and a grab shot that ought to have been binned! ;)
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and I had no problem with his comment then or yours now ... that is not the issue, it's the snide remarks that followed and those like them that have ruined this forum that I take issue with. It used to be fun and relaxing to share in this forum but it isn't now and I can't be the only member who thinks, 'What the heck, no point in posting here, there are plenty of far friendlier places'.
 
gramps said:
and I had no problem with his comment then or yours now ... that is not the issue, it's the snide remarks that followed and those like them that have ruined this forum that I take issue with. It used to be fun and relaxing to share in this forum but it isn't now and I can't be the only member who thinks, 'What the heck, no point in posting here, there are plenty of far friendlier places'.
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It could easily be said that your remark earlier than mine was the "snide" remark - inferring that you were not happy with the technical critique given - that was responded to …...many, (the significant minority), just do not read what is written
 
FourRingCircus said:
While we are at is, here is a sad fact. Within ten (overnight) hours, this thread has had 162 views, but only 16 poll takers. What does this say?
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that most people realise the poll is pointless because admin and mods make the rules, and they've already decided that these photo sections are for discussion and critique of images

on the wider point I tend to agree with brash that some people are sensitive little flowers who take offence at being told they aren't perfect in every possible way , these people need to get a grip, but that said some people giving 'crit' have all the tact and diplomacy of a cavalry charge in a broom closet, and seem to revel in being harsh and unhelpful - these people also need to get a f*****g grip
 
BillN_33 said:
It could easily be said that your remark earlier than mine was the "snide" remark - inferring that you were not happy with the technical critique given - that was responded to …...many, (the significant minority), just do not read what is written
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I think you would have to believe the world revolved around you for that to be true, but even if it were true, there is still no justification for responding in the demeaning way that you did.
 
I have to admit, I have replied to peoples posts before with things like 'Great Photo' etc, but only when there was no specific request for a critique. I assumed the people who were posting images without wanting specific comments know what makes a good photo and did not need telling. However reading this thread and thinking about it, I can see that that may have been incorrect of me, so I do apologise, and will endeavour to give some constructive comments to all. I still have the opinion that if someone wants help or comments on their images they should ask for it, and accept ALL comments (within reason), positive or negative, and not get their unmentionables in a twist.
 
Never listen to critique from someone who hasn't got a public portfolio somewhere online. Far too many armchair shooters out there will cause unnecessary pain :)

That said, I've always found critiquing really hard if the person doesn't ask WHAT they want critiquing. I've had someone look at some of my photos and dismiss them because the model is less-then-vogue looking, and that really has no value at all in helping someone develop photographically. Likewise if someone posts a crappy shot of a bird on their windowledge, if they don't specify what particular thing they want breaking down most people aren't going to touch it with a barge pole. No commercial value? Could be an art shot. Don't like the colour, could be a PP criticism etc.

Often with beginners there is *so much* wrong with an image that without focus it's impossible to give meaningful feedback outside of taking them on an impromptu photography course :)
 
I am also guilty of posting too many "Lovely shot" comments - I have been trying to just like those posts instead.

I have gained a lot from critique on my photos - it does sting a little at times, but I have taken on board much of it over the last year.

We just need to make sure that if a picture is great that it just doesn't sit there with no comments or likes - otherwise we will miss some great shots and I don't want to come here to view only ok shots :)
 
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Denyerec said:
Never listen to critique from someone who hasn't got a public portfolio somewhere online.
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I'm sorry but that's b*****ks - the best critique can be given by someone who doesn't even own a camera - for example if you are an aspiring wedding shooter knowing what other shooters think of your work can only take you so far, what you really need is critique from your intended market ie brides or brides to be

likewise if you aspire to have your bird pictures published in NatGeo or wherever, the best people to tell you whether your shots are good enough are nat geo readers (or picture editors etc)
 
big soft moose said:
I'm sorry but that's b*****ks - the best critique can be given by someone who doesn't even own a camera - for example if you are an aspiring wedding shooter knowing what other shooters think of your work can only take you so far, what you really need is critique from your intended market ie brides or brides to be

likewise if you aspire to have your bird pictures published in NatGeo or wherever, the best people to tell you whether your shots are good enough are nat geo readers (or picture editors etc)
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Got to agree with Pete here, crit can come from any direction, anyone can view an photo and say what they like/don't like about it, they don't need an online portfolio to do that

The key is to work out where the crit has come from and how much weight to apportion each piece of it, but they can all still help in peoples development with a camera, at least that is the way i look at it
 
Having been an occasional visitor to this thread it strikes me that there is a bit of a pecking order (see what I did there...) based a lot on how hard someone worked to get the shot. Robins - bottom of the list; something rare which no doubt took someone many days to photograph, top of the list. Also there seems to be a very definite preferred style of "specimen" photo with a cloned out background and single bird on top of a twig.

I suspect that new and occasional bird photographers are not necessarily aware of this Proper Order of Things and so put up what are probably perfectly reasonable photos only to be shot down because the standards set previously are so high, It's a bit like me killing my self to run a 7 minute mile and announcing to the world how proud I am of this only for someone to point out that 4 minutes was broken in 1945, I feel a bit foolish and seek to defend what I did just to try to retain some dignity.

I have a suggestion: Pick out a set of photos of a range of birds in different situations (flight, static, feeding, whatever) and get the Mods to create a sticky thread that contains these photos along with a some details such as the effort involved in capturing the image, settings, gear, PP, etc. This would then serve at least two purposes, it would give the new/occasional bird photographers a reference point against which they can compare and do some self crit. before posting and it would allow those giving crit. to point to something that they regard as a good example of what posters should be trying to achieve.
 
As someone who is limited by physical conditions, I think the majority of the main users in this section understand that and have given me some excellent advice in my short time of bird photography. I enjoy posting in this section but when we have comments like this, is this going to discourage people from posting????? "let's face it, none of us need/want to see a pi$$ poor shot of a garden bird on a feeder, BUT, we probably all started that way". A few weeks ago, I managed a couple of BIF of some BHG, which to me is an achievement, but probably a load of s*** to some and I can see why. Do I stop posting???

To me good bird photography is a mixture of skill, equipment used, fieldcraft etc........ So there are going to be a mixture of people posting, who are at different levels with different equipment. By some of the comments are we going to make the situations worse, where only a handful of people post? Have we lost the Osprey poster for good? is that a good thing? ( I haven't followed the thread from initial post).

Bill has been posting a few different photos and trials to try and encourage more involvement because the section has gone flat, so something needs be done to get it back.

I'm big and ugly enough to take the s*** but some aern't and it's also hard to try understand some of the characters when using the internet, especially if new to the section.

If I was an outsider and looked at some of the posts here over a few months, I would say there is a little bit of a Clique element in this section and some people seem to be so far up each others arses, they should be called ankles.
 
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