Critique : What do we want here?

[den]

A lot of us are forgeting that it is a privelege and not a right to post photographers here ,this is a free forum that we joined that should be respected and not abused, how many of us would be up in arms if the owners decided to pull the plug on just the bird section ,then we would realise what we had, and i for one believe if their is not a radical change in behaviour on here that could well happen,we are spoiling it for ourselves and any potential new members...

 

[dean messenger]

think i find the biggest problem with critique is that there are some on here ( in every section of the forum not just birds ) who have the attitude that if you put an image up then it should be of a pro standard and fail to recognize that many on here are amateurs enjoying a hobby.
im not putting up photos on here to sell, they are for enjoyment of something i like to do and shoot.
Ive owned a camera and starting taking pics from when i was 13 or 14 ( 30 odd years or more), that doesnt make me a pro. i went many years not owning a camera or just having a cheap point and shoot for capturing lifes moments ( holidays, family trips, celebrations, occasions ,births, weddings , etc etc.
I was also a member of the YOC from age around 8 when my parents signed me up ( young ornithologists club ) and later the RSPB. and spent many years enjoying birdwatching with and without a camera .
maybe i shouldnt bother sharing images on here because until people can seperate enjoying an image for the image ( be it a blue tit or robin in the garden or a sparrow hawk or owl in the wild ) and crticizing it because its professionally technically perfect ( oh look that 2mm of sky is blown, or that twig in the background is distracting, or that bit of rock in the bottom left could do with lightening up a bit or its a bit noisy or blurry ). honestly i couldnt care if its a nice image.
so maybe thats where the problem lies.. should we have a pro section for images to be analyzed and an amateur section for people to simply enjoy the images regardless of what they are because even with the current option for no critique or just for fun or go easy on me or whatever there will always be people on here who will think nothing of having a personal dig and make some sarcastic insulting derogatory comment ( and half of those have to be truthful have some awful images in there own pf so should hardly have room to comment themselves in the way they do ).
me in relation to the bird section. i just love to see birds ( and all wildlife ) regardless of quality because i appreciate the wildlife more than i do the photography )

 

[petert]

( oh look that 2mm of sky is blown, or that twig in the background is distracting, or that bit of rock in the bottom left could do with lightening up a bit or its a bit noisy or blurry ). honestly i couldnt care if its a nice image

Ilike that well put. Most the world wouldn't notice or care about these things, I do think sometimes they get blown out of proportion, for most of us its a hobby to enjoy and just capturing something is enough though If its good honest critique then that helps

 

[dean messenger]

Ilike that well put. Most the world wouldn't notice or care about these things, I do think sometimes they get blown out of proportion, for most of us its a hobby to enjoy and just capturing something is enough though If its good honest critique then that helps

critique is all fine when its constructive and positive but i see far to much negative destructive critisism that goes down the path of personal insults.
such things like its a rubbish , oof and overexposed what were you thinking is totally pointless.
when i do crit occassionally on images one of the first things i ask is what settings, camera ane lens did you use, because in many cases the problem technically tend sto be a simple case of incorrect settings and soemthing that can easily be helped with and give contrsuctive positive comments on, rather than the crass blatant bullying that goes on on here

 

[den]

Unfortunately there are some that take the attitude of ..'you posted in the CC section so I am can behave like a compote knob and say whatever I like about your pic,if you don't like it post in the photos for pleasure, little man syndrome I call it ,just got to accept that that's the way they are and don't take the bait when they decide to go fishing ......

 

[petert]

I'd laugh it off I can't take people like that seriously

 

[FourRingCircus]

Most the world wouldn't notice or care about these things, I do think sometimes they get blown out of proportion, for most of us its a hobby to enjoy and just capturing something is enough though If its good honest critique then that helps

I agree with you 100%, but that's because I'm a birdie person first and a photographer second. Like Dean, I was opted into the YOC at age 8 in the early days of 'Operation Osprey' at Loch Garten (more than 30 odd years ago!).

However, (and this is the bit we possibly forget in here?) TP is not a bird forum, it's a photography forum, first and foremost. There are lots of other places to post 'nice' pics if you don't want CC.

 

[dean messenger]

Unfortunately there are some that take the attitude of ..'you posted in the CC section so I am can behave like a compote knob and say whatever I like about your pic,if you don't like it post in the photos for pleasure, little man syndrome I call it ,just got to accept that that's the way they are and don't take the bait when they decide to go fishing ......

just sometimes though these fishermen will catch a shark that bites back lol

 

[petert]

I agree with you 100%, but that's because I'm a birdie person first and a photographer second. Like Dean, I was opted into the YOC at age 8 in the early days of 'Operation Osprey' at Loch Garten (more than 30 odd years ago!).

However, (and this is the bit we possibly forget in here?) TP is not a bird forum, it's a photography forum, first and foremost. There are lots of other places to post 'nice' pics if you don't want CC.

It seems the way some are critical that is the problem not what.

 

[u8myufo]

I agree I've found it helpful and appreciate the comments even when they disagree between themselves, I certainly wouldn't get uptight about it. You don't have to agree either we all see things differently but always ready to learn from people who are.more experienced than me

Which Pete is what most of us have been trying to put across ever since this topic surfaced a couple of years back.First and formost nobody on here is an expert,the experts are out earning money from their bird photography and do not even post their pics on TP,the sooner people realise that the better.If you want to see a Wow! Fab! Excellent! image of a particular species then do a google search,it will not take you long to find how it should be done.On oocassions though we are privelaged to see something presented on here which does show an image that we would all be proud of.Take a look HERE for example,as normal very little feedback and praise on two fine shots.Go with the notion Pete, that so long as someone can find a legit reason to pick fault with your work then you will improve that much more next time around

 

[den]

Which Pete is what most of us have been trying to put across ever since this topic surfaced a couple of years back.First and formost nobody on here is an expert,the experts are out earning money from their bird photography and do not even post their pics on TP,the sooner people realise that the better.If you want to see a Wow! Fab! Excellent! image of a particular species then do a google search,it will not take you long to find how it should be done.On oocassions though we are privelaged to see something presented on here which does show an image that we would all be proud of.Take a look HERE for example,as normal very little feedback and praise on two fine shots.Go with the notion Pete, that so long as someone can find a legit reason to pick fault with your work then you will improve that much more next time around

Missing the point Rich,most on here are quite happy with CC of there shots,its when it gets selective and the team mentality kicks in,and it does happen and you know it,some members do like to bait and some do like to wind other members up,its been happening for years by the same old members ,me i have tried to be less sensitive and made a effort ,to not take every comment personally ,possibly come back myself like i have with you today and asked you straight out ,but i am sorry to say there are a few that have made no effort at all, i have looked at some shots posted and all i see is innane babble that you would expect to hear from schoolboys ,there just does not seem to be any maturity from what i would consider to be a average age in the bird section to be around 55 years old,

 

[fracster]

@den average age 55?........cheeky sod.............

 

[den]

@den average age 55?........cheeky sod.............

Its a guess but i bet i am not far away ,sorry to offend but you do know i have met you before ,you didnt know it was me then as it was a coupke of years ago,well Bill must be a hundred and five at least

 

[BillN_33]

I wish I was 55 …… 65 would do ………. but at least I got my OAP before they extended the staring age …….

Not sure how old I am mentally …… depends who you ask!!!!

 

[den]

I wish I was 55 …… 65 would do ………. but at least I got my OAP before they extended the staring age …….

Not sure how old I am mentally …… depends who you ask!!!!

You see Bill as cuckooed as i think you are ,i quite like you as we never know which Bill we are going to get ,your just a old ecentric wannabe fool ,and i mean that in a nice way you see i was brought up to respect me elders and i will continue to do that even though you can be a arse sometimes ....i also believe your intentions are always good though slightly tinged sometimes by the glass or two of you know what,i accept that because you are what you are and i dont think anyone on here will change you ,what we should have is a instead of a smiley a glass of wine to put next to your comments so we can see that you have started on the vino and decide at what point you were on the bottle ...smiley,smiley,smiley

 

[BillN_33]

I have brought 100 bottles of Champagne, 100 bottles of dry white and a 110 bottles of red plus 10 Magnums of Red back from France in the past 3 months

We are having a little "party" at the weekend

 

[fracster]

I think I need some time out from this section. Bloody depressing in here at the moment.

 

[BillN_33]

I think I need some time out from this section. Bloody depressing in here at the moment.

miserable bugger … which bloody smilie should I use?

I was hoping for your comments of my Osprey shots

PS - There's an Hudsonian Whimbrel in West Sussex

 

[den]

I have brought 100 bottles of Champagne, 100 bottles of dry white and a 110 bottles of red plus 10 Magnums of Red back from France in the past 3 months

We are having a little "party" at the weekend

What,,,,you finally got a shot in focus.....enjoy the celebrations Bill (whatever it may be)

 

[FourRingCircus]

So, as we approach three days worth of polling info, there's actually one or two surprises here.

The first thing is that virtually 9/10 people want to hear the bad as well as the good when they post up an image. This is a good thing.

One person wants nothing but praise, regardless of how bad things are. In light of recent events, I now wonder if this person toured Scotland recently looking for Ospreys....

Finally, I just can believe that nearly ten-percent of respondents were Googling 'tits', but you never can tell......

 

[u8myufo]

Missing the point Rich,most on here are quite happy with CC of there shots,its when it gets selective and the team mentality kicks in,and it does happen and you know it,some members do like to bait and some do like to wind other members up,its been happening for years by the same old members ,me i have tried to be less sensitive and made a effort ,to not take every comment personally ,possibly come back myself like i have with you today and asked you straight out ,but i am sorry to say there are a few that have made no effort at all, i have looked at some shots posted and all i see is innane babble that you would expect to hear from schoolboys ,there just does not seem to be any maturity from what i would consider to be a average age in the bird section to be around 55 years old,

You say I am missing the point Den,and you say it`s when it becomes selective it becomes a problem.Are you able to explain in a little more detail what you mean by that?We have become a nanny state and that has even spread into this forum.With regards to who says what on here Den, we need to realise we are all as bad as one another,there is not one member who is more holier - than - thou.Another thing that people honestly need to realise,is that whilst for the majority of time the images produced are very good,we all have off days,and yes Den that would be me included.Off days for settings used on the actual shot as well as editing or anything else.The one`s that grind my gears are those that do not accept that and think that each and every shot is spectacular.Yet as soon as something is mentioned it goes pear shaped,surely speaking the truth is the kind of feedback you are advocating on here? You mention you are trying to be less sensitive and make a effort to not take every comment personally.Something I knew a long time back Den and still have Screen grabs of PM`s to back that up,you mention about coming straight out with things more.That is something I have always done with any C&C and accepted it from others when I first joined TP.I mentioned a while back that this topic would rear it`s head again in a few months,and bugger me so it has.More accurate than the atomic clock is this subject.

 

[BRASH]

I think I need some time out from this section. Bloody depressing in here at the moment.

Agreed, the illiterate hypocrisy is staggering. The ariel decent at rapid knots from the upper most part of Fowlsheugh is more appealing by the minute.

As my dear ole granddad used to say:

"Don't ever neglect insight so astute that wonders aren't treasured."

Pretty good advice I'd say.

 

[Swanseajack]

Which Pete is what most of us have been trying to put across ever since this topic surfaced a couple of years back.First and formost nobody on here is an expert,the experts are out earning money from their bird photography and do not even post their pics on TP,the sooner people realise that the better.If you want to see a Wow! Fab! Excellent! image of a particular species then do a google search,it will not take you long to find how it should be done.On oocassions though we are privelaged to see something presented on here which does show an image that we would all be proud of.Take a look HERE for example,as normal very little feedback and praise on two fine shots.Go with the notion Pete, that so long as someone can find a legit reason to pick fault with your work then you will improve that much more next time around

Thanks for the links to the Buzzard photos, I missed them when originally posted. I had a look through Paul's Flickr account and there are some stunning captures there. A very high standard of work.

Not sure if allowed to post links to other peoples work, (so delete Mods if required) but this picture is excellent IMO. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/drexylpogo/15505733552/in/photostream/

 

[petert]

They are superb is this what the fuss is all about?

 

[big soft moose]

You say I am missing the point Den,and you say it`s when it becomes selective it becomes a problem.Are you able to explain in a little more detail what you mean by that?We have become a nanny state and that has even spread into this forum.With regards to who says what on here Den, we need to realise we are all as bad as one another,there is not one member who is more holier - than - thou.Another thing that people honestly need to realise,is that whilst for the majority of time the images produced are very good,we all have off days,and yes Den that would be me included.Off days for settings used on the actual shot as well as editing or anything else.The one`s that grind my gears are those that do not accept that and think that each and every shot is spectacular.Yet as soon as something is mentioned it goes pear shaped,surely speaking the truth is the kind of feedback you are advocating on here? You mention you are trying to be less sensitive and make a effort to not take every comment personally.Something I knew a long time back Den and still have Screen grabs of PM`s to back that up,you mention about coming straight out with things more.That is something I have always done with any C&C and accepted it from others when I first joined TP.I mentioned a while back that this topic would rear it`s head again in a few months,and bugger me so it has.More accurate than the atomic clock is this subject.

I think what Den is talking about is the wolf pack mentality where one member gets singled out for crit which is more like abuse, and its often more about the poster than the quality of the image

 

[u8myufo]

I think what Den is talking about is the wolf pack mentality where one member gets singled out for crit which is more like abuse, and its often more about the poster than the quality of the image

Well if that is the case Pete perhaps you could enlighten me? I honestly can say I have not seen anybody being singled out,but I may well have missed something.Ok I can accept that sometimes there may be a bit of straight to the point C&C given from time to time from certain members,there are also little snide remarks made quite often from others,and I am not daft enough not to be able to see beyond any smilies included with those comments But really,people being singled out and picked on by a Wolf pack?I don`t think so somehow,I know the Mods are a lazy lot of gits and are quite leniant most of the time,but I think if any of that was going on out in the open they would have dealt with it straight away with no questions asked.

 

[big soft moose]

Well if that is the case Pete perhaps you could enlighten me? I honestly can say I have not seen anybody being singled out,but I may well have missed something.Ok I can accept that sometimes there may be a bit of straight to the point C&C given from time to time from certain members,there are also little snide remarks made quite often from others,and I am not daft enough not to be able to see beyond any smilies included with those comments But really,people being singled out and picked on by a Wolf pack?I don`t think so somehow,I know the Mods are a lazy lot of gits and are quite leniant most of the time,but I think if any of that was going on out in the open they would have dealt with it straight away with no questions asked.

well historically there was a whole load of Den bashing around' little owl gate' - which i imagine is what hes refering to - the other notable example without going searching would be Mr Riben and "the bird" (and I'd hold ,my hand up to being part of the pitchforks and torches mob on that one)

 

[u8myufo]

Oh, and how I wish I could go back in time where half a dozen members or more would be slagging my shots off,did I ever threaten to leave because of that?Correct answers on a postcard please

 

[big soft moose]

Its happened to me too and I didnt flounce about it either, but that doesnt make it right though - nor does it track well with the "freindliest forum guff

 

[BillN_33]

Oh, and how I wish I could go back in time where half a dozen members or more would be slagging my shots off,did I ever threaten to leave because of that?Correct answers on a postcard please

Rich your shots have never been slagged off, as far as I am aware, they are very good, your ability with pp is exceptional, I have said this to you many times and also to others - you have your own style of pp and you have given advice on how others may improve …….. of this there is no doubt.

But the better anyone becomes at bird photography and pp the more they realise what can been done and the more they want to look at other "styles" - your style is your own and very relevant to certain images - others have different views and prefer a softer more natural approach - not right or wrong, but different…… it is important that we all explore what can be done in pp as it is really interesting, especially if you have an open mind

Some of us have learned a lot from you and you have been a generous person, but it is important that we all realise what is happening on this forum, (especially me), and try to take it forward….. which I do ……. not because I have any special skill, but because I am grateful to the forum for allowing me to improve so much over the last year, if I can do it at my age it is certainly possible for others to

The forum has plateau(ed) for certain people, not because of their potential but because of the very nature of the understanding of Critique in the section, (IMVHO) ……….others improve and then see what is happening and move on …… we all have limited ability that peaks ………….


FROM: The Windbag Sailor - watch the B & W film if you have time - it was always one of my favourites - I have slightly "bastardised" the title, the title is Windbag the Sailor - like Sinbad the Sailor - Ade called me a "windbag" the other day - I am grateful to him because he reminded me of the film and the messages that it contains… and especially the irony that I see in his comment and in this section

 

[petert]

Well I've never done pp I never saw the point:-o but bought lightroom today so I'll be pestering you for help.I've no doubt;-)

 

[dean messenger]

there are some total t***s on here whos soul purpose seems to be to belitte others, make personal attacks and generally find any excuse to have a little dig. could name at least 4 or 5 members. of which one aas reported to admins and totally ignored.. why.. because they are a forum spammer and buddy buddy with a few . and yes the pack mentality comes into play quite often when someone gets under attack the others suddenly appear in the same thread with there pathetic little digs.
cowardly keyboard warriors who in real life would probably run a mile if you said boo to them. but for some reason they continually get away with it.
its not what you know on here more like who you know

 

[BillN_33]

there are some total t***s on here whos soul purpose seems to be to belitte others, make personal attacks and generally find any excuse to have a little dig. could name at least 4 or 5 members. of which one aas reported to admins and totally ignored.. why.. because they are a forum spammer and buddy buddy with a few . and yes the pack mentality comes into play quite often when someone gets under attack the others suddenly appear in the same thread with there pathetic little digs.
cowardly keyboard warriors who in real life would probably run a mile if you said boo to them. but for some reason they continually get away with it.
its not what you know on here more like who you know

I do think that you are wrong and, IMHO, just do not understand the meaning of what is said ….. generally the people on here do care, in their own way ……. you just have to try to understand why they say what they say and why they post what they post

You cannot just "float in" to a thread, read one posting and assume that it is representative

agressive feelings and strong views are part of creative development, IMVHO, (and I am sick of HAVING to use that expression ON HERE to excuse what i say and to keep people from being offended or "happy")

We have strong personalities on here and I think that is good

 

[u8myufo]

Rich your shots have never been slagged off, as far as I am aware, they are very good, your ability with pp is exceptional, I have said this to you many times and also to others - you have

Bill,I am refering to when I first joined and you were all but a glint in some Navi`s eye Unfortunately when the forum had a facelift the majority of threads were deleted,but like I say, oh how I wish I could go back and link you to a lot of threads.Critic was strong and harsh from all corners,people never got upset or threatned to leave.If that were possible you will see how from present to a few years back the subject of crit has been chipped away at slowly,and that the dummy spitting gradually got worse.Personaly I blame the Mods for letting that happen(Yes shoot me at dawn admin) but it should have been nipped in the bud before it escalated to how we find it today.

 

[BillN_33]

Bill,I am refering to when I first joined and you were all but a glint in some Navi`s eye Unfortunately when the forum had a facelift the majority of threads were deleted,but like I say, oh how I wish I could go back and link you to a lot of threads.Critic was strong and harsh from all corners,people never got upset or threatned to leave.If that were possible you will see how from present to a few years back the subject of crit has been chipped away at slowly,and that the dummy spitting gradually got worse.Personaly I blame the Mods for letting that happen(Yes shoot me at dawn admin) but it should have been nipped in the bud before it escalated to how we find it today.

Maybe I should say that things change and we have to deal with what is in front of us …….. you are well equipped to do that Rich ………… I keep using the word "understand" in an effort to contribute

As you know I am as "offensive" and sarcastic as anyone, but it does not mean that I do not recognise ability or genuine interest

I am as disappointed as anyone but still inspired by what some contribute to the section

It is a shame, but it is all "our faults"

walk down the high street and look around if you want to be really depressed, ….. sh1t is happening all around you these days … what happens on here is very mild and at least we can still talk about it

 

[u8myufo]

well historically there was a whole load of Den bashing around' little owl gate' )

@den, can you honestly say this is probably the case?

 

[big soft moose]

To be honest i'm not sure strong and harsh is desirable - I'd prefer constructive and useful - though i would like to see the end of the "nice shot"

 

[u8myufo]

To be honest i'm not sure strong and harsh is desirable - I'd prefer constructive and useful - though i would like to see the end of the "nice shot"

If it`s strong harsh and straight to the point then it`s the truth Pete,that in my mind equals honesty and useful.Nobody is beating anyone with a stick in an effort to help them improve are they?

 

[u8myufo]

Although what I would expect is an explanation on how to improve not just where it has gone wrong,but that said, that was always the norm anyhow.

 

[fracster]

there are some total t***s on here whos soul purpose seems to be to belitte others, make personal attacks and generally find any excuse to have a little dig. could name at least 4 or 5 members. of which one aas reported to admins and totally ignored.. why.. because they are a forum spammer and buddy buddy with a few . and yes the pack mentality comes into play quite often when someone gets under attack the others suddenly appear in the same thread with there pathetic little digs.
cowardly keyboard warriors who in real life would probably run a mile if you said boo to them. but for some reason they continually get away with it.
its not what you know on here more like who you know

So name names then. If you feel that strongly about it and are as bold as you appear, call the people out. Let them have a chance to respond.